The 7165 is 160 baud rate and the 7730 is 8192 baud rate so how would this affect data logging? The nvram kit took some reworking of the code to work on the 7730 will it even work on the 7165?
The 7165 will also do 8192 baud as long as a 10k resistor is used between aldl pin A and B.
The nvram and code that I am using was not designed for the 7730. It was designed to work with the 7165. For the nvram designed for the 7730, hardware wise would probably work with the 7165 but the code is 7730 exclusive.
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Originally posted by jdv:
The 7165 is 160 baud rate and the 7730 is 8192 baud rate so how would this affect data logging? The nvram kit took some reworking of the code to work on the 7730 will it even work on the 7165?
The 7165 will also do 8192 baud as long as a 10k resistor is used between aldl pin A and B.
The nvram and code that I am using was not designed for the 7730. It was designed to work with the 7165. For the nvram designed for the 7730, hardware wise would probably work with the 7165 but the code is 7730 exclusive.
8192 baud comes in threw a different pin on the ALDL, I forget if it is 'E' or 'M'. I used 8192 on my 4.9 swap. Might have to add a new pin into the harness and ALDL.
Originally posted by chetw77cruiser: Go ahead and post them here. Remember from school what the teachers said: Ask the question anyway, because someone else probably has the same question and is to shy to ask. I was usually the shy one.
OK, here goes. But first of all, a brief run-down of my powertrain setup -- 3.4 V6 with manual transmission, electronic ignition (DIS), knock sensor, no EGR, no A/C, magnetic speed sensor, ECM controlled radiator fan, ECM controlled charcoal canister, 7730 ECM with Moates G1 adapter and flash ROM chip, custom tune.
Now, the questions:
-- For my setup, which brands / models of cars should I look for in the salvage yards for the appropriate 7165 ECM? -- Can a commercially available flash ROM (like my 27SF512 chip, for example) be used in place of the 7165's PROM chip? If so, which one(s) will fit? -- Do you have a V6 bin file that can run a WBO2 sensor (without an aftermarket adapter)? -- Can the 7165 ECM control the radiator fan and canister purge, like my 7730 does now? -- Does the 7165 ECM require the cold-start injector? Or does it adjust fueling at start-up, like the 7730? -- Do you have any pin-out diagrams available?
That's all I have for now.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-24-2011).]
2). -- Can a commercially available flash ROM (like my 27SF512 chip, for example) be used in place of the 7165's PROM chip? If so, which one(s) will fit?
Yes. the 32k (27C256) is the smallest that can be used. Using a non-nvram chip disables the aldl tunning feature and certian learn functions, although with proper tuning most of these features are not needed. Basically anything that works in the 7730 will also work in the 7165 other than the 16k(27c128) eprom. Not big enough.
3). -- Do you have a V6 bin file that can run a WBO2 sensor (without an aftermarket adapter)?
I am currently using the v6 bin that can use the input from a WBO2, but cannot control this sensor dirrectly. The ecu does not have the proper circuitry to do the above. I do have a wideband controller that I am installing into the ecu's case and can use the ecu connector after the needed wires are run for it. Makes fr a clean installation.
4). -- Can the 7165 ECM control the radiator fan and canister purge, like my 7730 does now?
Yes on the fan, haven't tried on the canister purge. With the programable outputs, shouldn't be to difficult to implement based on rpm and map.
5). -- Does the 7165 ECM require the cold-start injector? Or does it adjust fueling at start-up, like the 7730?
This code DOES NOT require the cold start injector. All fueling is taken care of by the ecu, like the 7730.
6). -- Do you have any pin-out diagrams available?
I am currently making a pin-out diagram to show the change needed to go from the 7170 to the 7165. Give me a few days to get something put together.
With winter here, a good portion of my time is spent either fixing the roads, or plowing them. Calling for more than 8 inches in the next couple of days here. Patience is a virtue.
Basically the same thing. I like the 7165 because it fits in the 7170 tray and uses the same ecm plugs. More of a plug and play operation. I will check to see if the code I use is compatible with this nvram board. What I am making is a little bit cheaper but requires the memcal to be modified.
If anyone wants to try this nvram with the modified 8D code, I have a base tune from my 86 GT with 4 speed. Transfer most of the parameters to the nvram code and thisng should work.
I am very interested, timgray.geo@yahoo.com if you would send me the bin in an email.
The forecast tonight is calling for 5 above. I will find out how well my tune with this ecu and code will run at this low temp. Sure am glad that we only get 9 months of winter here where I live.
Hopefully this is fairly easy to decipher. Some wanted to see a pinout for the 7170 to 7165 swap. I have a better version than this if anyone wants a copy.
The Fiero started up on Wednesday without to much hesitation. The temp was at 1 above when I started the vehicle. It windmilled a few cycles but finally took after a couple of seconds. Need to go through some of the cold start and run settings as well as the IAC cold settings. Once started, idle settled at an easy 1200 RPM and ran rather well considering the temp. This is still a work in progress, but I am getting closer.
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Originally posted by chetw77cruiser:
The forecast tonight is calling for 5 above. I will find out how well my tune with this ecu and code will run at this low temp. Sure am glad that we only get 9 months of winter here where I live.
I have the nvram functioning in my application and so far no problems. Being able to tune on the fly without an emulator is a wonderful thing. Other than the nvram board and the modified code, no other specialized equipment is needed. Any aldl-to-serial adapter should work. I have the moates autoprom set or aldl adapter, not emulator, and it works fine.
I was also able to enable the ve learn function and it seems to work like it should. I purposely de-tuned part of the ve table to test the learn ability. Within 30 minutes of normal driving, most of the table was back to normal. I also checked on the calibration switching function. Yep, that too also went off without a hitch.
I also did a little more research and it appears that this ecu and code will also function well on the 2.5 TBI engines. Unfortunately, since I only have two 2.5's that are an unknown, I cannot confirm this.
Forgot to mention that a couple of nights ago, the temperature actually made it to 9 below zero. My thermometer reads a bit high, I did not know it was that far off though. Keep tuning my friends.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 10-29-2011).]
Now that I have the tune pretty much spot on thanks to the ve learn function, I have now enabled the lean burn mode. Although I have had it on a short time, I have been able to lean the engine out to 19-to-1 AFR (air-fuel ratio) without any running problems that I can detect. The engine does not surge of miss. The only change I could see is that I have to add a bit more throttle to compensate. Now I just need to go on a road trip to see if there is any benefit running 17:1 AFR.
This is fun and educational.
P.S., how does one bump this to the construction zone? That would keep this information in a better, easier to access area.
i was just putting my vote in for the construction zone, very interesting conversion. i like the fact that you are using that lean burn highway mode... looks like you have it down pat though. now you get to start messing with ign timing with the fuel trims... fun fun.
Ok, here is the latest on the nvram boards. They should range in cost from 50 to 100 dollars depending on how many are ordered. With this and a few extra wires added to the ecm (I can send info or do it for you, just costs shipping), realtime tuning with nothing but a laptop and a aldl adapter is a reality.
On a different tangent, I will be taking a roadtrip this weekend, so I will be testing the lean burn mode and a few other functions. Hopefully things work correctly.
Anyone in the area from Wheatland to Casper area in Wyoming? If so, PM me for my number and give me a shout this weekend.
I might be able to test the '7165 in a four cylinder application.
The four cylinder won't be a drop-in though, since the 4 cylinder ECMs all use edge-card connectors. My harness is converted over to use conventional connectors since I'm using the EBL flash.
I drove from Walden CO to Wheatland WYO through Laramie and averaged approx 39 MPG. This was at a constant 65 MPH and driving easy except to pass a couple of slower vehicles. From Wheatland to Douglas WYO on Interstate 25, traveling at 75-80 MPH, I managed 32 MPG. I was not easy on the throttle this time. When I return to Walden tomorrow, I will get some more test results. Take this info for what it is worth, but things look good so far for the 7165 and lean burn mode.
I have returned from my trip today and things went great. Today I was able to manage 32 MPG with a 30+ mph headwind most of the way. Also need to keep in mind the altitude change from 4200' to 8200'. Still, overall the trip averaged 33 MPG traveling at hoghway speeds and stiff headwinds for most of it.
Keep tuning my friends.
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Originally posted by chetw77cruiser:
I drove from Walden CO to Wheatland WYO through Laramie and averaged approx 39 MPG. This was at a constant 65 MPH and driving easy except to pass a couple of slower vehicles. From Wheatland to Douglas WYO on Interstate 25, traveling at 75-80 MPH, I managed 32 MPG. I was not easy on the throttle this time. When I return to Walden tomorrow, I will get some more test results. Take this info for what it is worth, but things look good so far for the 7165 and lean burn mode.
No updates at this time on the nvram boards. I need to get an idea how many want to go the7165 with nvram route so I can get a more definitive price for the boards. If anyone is interested in using this setup, let me know. Looks like the going price is going to be about $75. The ecu will need modified and I can either send information on the mod or the ecu can be sent to me, just pay for shipping.
As for my 86 SE, as long as I keep my foot out of the throttle, there is an increase in mileage around town. What is killing my mile per tank is the warmup time every morning before going to work. I can either drive cold or just deal with it. At least I have the studded snow tires on since they are calling for blizzard condtions around my area. Whoopie!
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Originally posted by jdv:
Hi any updates on the nvram boards? This is a nice xdf.
If anyone is interested in using this setup, let me know. Looks like the going price is going to be about $75. The ecu will need modified and I can either send information on the mod or the ecu can be sent to me, just pay for shipping.
Keep tuning my friends.
What sort of mods are we looking at here? I am interested in doing this.
I will not be doing this until after Xmas. 9 Grandchildren. Not gonna spend their gift money set aside on my toys. I am gonna start removing my drive train tomorrow to replace the torque converter seal. Might be out of the car for a month or so.
The only mod is attaching a jumper wire between to connections on the pcb(board) to enable the ecu to write to the nvram. A simple enough mod, some may not be comfortable doing it. That is why I offered.
If you want to get started with the 7165 and the nvram sooner, you can go to www.delcohacking.net/forums/ and look for vl400, He has nvram boards that are either assembled or in kit form. The code I am using is also from this site, the OSE $12P. I have a callibration file that will get you started with the 2.8 V6. I Should have a few boards here in a few weeks as well.
I am not well versed on tuning, however i have been studying the 7730 computer as a possible candidate for a swap into my 3.4PR Formula. Am I correct in assuming this is a simpler ECU mod than the 7730 as far as rewiring? Does it require a digital EGR like the 7730?
I am not well versed on tuning, however i have been studying the 7730 computer as a possible candidate for a swap into my 3.4PR Formula. Am I correct in assuming this is a simpler ECU mod than the 7730 as far as rewiring? Does it require a digital EGR like the 7730?
For the wiring, there are about 4-6 wires that need to be moved, spliced, added, or removed. Most everything else stays in place. Also, with this ecu, the computer tray and connectors do not need to be replaced or changed. No need to locate a 4 cylinder ecu tray, just keep the v6 tray.
As for the egr, this code has been modified and does not have egr control like a stock code. This does not mean that the egr cannot be controlled. There are 4 programmable outputs, 3 if using an automatic transmission with torque convertor lockup. These can be setup to control the egr depending on rpm and engine vacuum.
so if a person gets the NVRam all set up and the learning mode working, how open is it to engine mods? I have an 85 GT 4-spd with a non-efi GMPP cam, but otherwise stock. I have the car running (although not driving yet due to a clutch bleeding issue) thanks to some manual tweaking to the idle screw, and the TPS, but it's still a bit temperamental... I have to turn the idle screw up a bit to start it and have it idle on it's own, but as it warms up, I have to turn the screw down or else the idle is up around 1500+. I was expecting to be doing a lot of tweaking to the tune with the cam in it, but this setup could just save me a whole lot of hassles... the other question I have (that you may not be able to answer) is pertaining to using this setup in my other Fiero with a Series1 OBD1 3800SC (from 93 SSEI Bonneville), or my 3.4 hybrid setup in my 86 Z24 Cavi... (don't have access to either car right now, so unless somebody else has access to do a look-up, I don't have ECM numbers handy)... or even my 89 Chevy crewcab with the TBI 400 SBC that I havn't started building yet, lol
This sounds like it could be an ideal setup for most of my applications
------------------ 1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie 1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season 1985 Fiero SE Targa - 3.8SC - long term project 1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily beaten driver 1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC donor for 85 Targa
so if a person gets the NVRam all set up and the learning mode working, how open is it to engine mods? I have an 85 GT 4-spd with a non-efi GMPP cam, but otherwise stock. I have the car running (although not driving yet due to a clutch bleeding issue) thanks to some manual tweaking to the idle screw, and the TPS, but it's still a bit temperamental... I have to turn the idle screw up a bit to start it and have it idle on it's own, but as it warms up, I have to turn the screw down or else the idle is up around 1500+. I was expecting to be doing a lot of tweaking to the tune with the cam in it, but this setup could just save me a whole lot of hassles... the other question I have (that you may not be able to answer) is pertaining to using this setup in my other Fiero with a Series1 OBD1 3800SC (from 93 SSEI Bonneville), or my 3.4 hybrid setup in my 86 Z24 Cavi... (don't have access to either car right now, so unless somebody else has access to do a look-up, I don't have ECM numbers handy)... or even my 89 Chevy crewcab with the TBI 400 SBC that I havn't started building yet, lol
This sounds like it could be an ideal setup for most of my applications
This code is fairly open to engine mods, but within reason. Some very large cams may pose a problem on the transition from idle to off-idle conditions as well as low speed tune ability. Do you know what the specs are for the cam you are using? How much vacuum do you see when the engine is operating?
For engines that have larger than stock cams, there is a mode called closed throttle ve vs. rpm. When the throttle is closed (adjustable), the fueling disregards the MAP sensor and runs based on rpm. Almost like alpha-N mode, but only when at idle. Since all my vehicles are stock (currently), I have not had a chance to try this on a high-performance engine. Want to be the guinea-pig!?
During normal driving, the ve learn should do a getting the tune close to what the engine needs, but you need to give it a place to start. This means either getting a calibration that is close or be good at guessing. I would imagine that my cal file would get you in the ballpark. The nice thing about this code is that with a small program for your laptop and an aldl cable, you can flash just the calibration section of the code and not have to burn a new bin into the chip. Kind of like a power programmer for the LSx series.
As far as the 3800SC, you should have the 16141470 PCM. With some tweaking of the calibration, that engine should not be a problem. This code will work with a 2 and 3 bar MP sensor. Boost control is not native to this code, but one of the programmable outputs can be set to run a bypass valve or waste gate. We just need to make sure that the injectors are high-impedance as the 7165 could only drive one low-z (impedance) or 8 high-z injectors with out mods. This also answers the question about the 400 SBC with TBI. There are external injector drivers that come in kit form that will drive the tbi injectors with just the one inj line from the 7165.
The 3.4 hybrid should not be a problem either, just a matter of setting the spark offset correctly. If the cavalier has the stock ecu, it is most likely the 1227302. Makes this a good canidate for the 7165 swap. Same connectors, same ecu tray, and nearly the same wiring as the Fiero. I can make up a harness pinout for you to swap between the two ecu's.
Keep tuning my friends.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 11-15-2011).]
I forgot to mention earlier when talking about ald communications speed, there is a special comms mode that allows 30Hz logging speed vs the stock 8-10Hz. Logging at 3 times the normal speed, doesn't get any better than that. Great when diagnosing transient fueling or spark issues. Ask me how I know. You are limited to what parameters can be logged, but that isn't a problem due to what is logged.
I forgot to mention earlier when talking about ald communications speed, there is a special comms mode that allows 30Hz logging speed vs the stock 8-10Hz. Logging at 3 times the normal speed, doesn't get any better than that. Great when diagnosing transient fueling or spark issues. Ask me how I know. You are limited to what parameters can be logged, but that isn't a problem due to what is logged.
Later.
Will my AutoXray 5000 still work? If so how would I configure it so it would work?
Will the learn mode still work with an ostrich? How are the nvram boards coming? I picked up a 165 today for a turkey day project.
The learn mode will not work with the ostrich or the autoprom. These devices are not designed to be written to from the ecu. The autoprom can be used as a aldl interface, although there are less expensive alternatives.
You can still use the ostrich as the emulator and just write to it like any other ecu that you are tuning. If you have any questions, send me a PM for more contact information. I will be available all day during turkey day. Same goes for anyone else.
The nvram boards should be ready in 5 - 10 days. I will let everyone know when I have some ready.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 11-21-2011).]
Will my AutoXray 5000 still work? If so how would I configure it so it would work?
Unfortunately, the autoxray 5000 will not work based on what I have seen.. Not being that familiar with that system, I do not know how to configure it to work. The scanner uses a pre-defined list of cars and information that it can read. The code I am using is a highly modified code from the 1227808 ecu, so unless a user made def can be programed to the scanner, we are out of luck.
Now if you wanted to purchase a standard OBD1 aldl adapter, all you need to read this code is a laptop and tunerpro rt.
On a round trip from Walden CO. to Cheyenne WY. I was able to manage 32 MPG. This included mostly uphill from Cheyenne to Laramie along Interstate 80 and with 40+ MPH head winds. Ask Four_hundred_86 about the trip home. Good day for a Sunday drive around these parts. Anyway, I am still playing with this code and trying different things with it.
As a side note, I have 5 nvram boards ready to go. I have one already spoken for, first come, first serve. I need to know who is interested in one. Send me a PM if you want one.
Same as earlier, 75 + shipping. And if you don't want to mod the ecu yourself, just take care of shipping and I will add the board and modify the ecu to match.
