I am interested in this ECM swap. I have an 88 GT 5-speed Getrag with 3.4 PR swap running a distributor and stock 88 manual ECM and chip. While it runs very well, there is a slight hunt at idle and it seems to be slightly rich. It will soot up the exhaust tips over the period of one week driving every day. On a recent trip using the A/C constantly it averaged about 28 MPG. Would this ECM help with my issues?
I just looked back through this thread and see he him self is doing a 3.4 dohc what he has done will be a great help for swaps maybe he could get it to run some of the vvt engines like a 3.6 if he has extra pins
For those interested in using this to replace the stock ecu in a vehicle that has regular emission testing, this is probably not going to be your best bet. This swap is more of a "for off road use only" type of swap. The biggest issue is that there is no native EGR function. The other issue is that the testing facility will not see the proper ecu and information when connected electronically. There are programmable tables that could control the egr valve, but all of the intricacies of the OEM are not present.
As for the 3.4 TDC/DOHC engine, it will control it without any trouble. The range of the code is somewhere near 9600 RPM, so you will run out of engine before fueling and spark. There are a few that must be changed to use this code with a DIS system, but nothing to worry about.
With the right tuning and paying attention to the details, I would venture to say that on average a person would be able to attain an average increase of 3 to 5 MPG. Remember though, results may vary.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 05-02-2012).]
Originally posted by chetw77cruiser: For those interested in using this to replace the stock ecu in a vehicle that has regular emission testing, this is probably not going to be your best bet. This swap is more of a "for off road use only" type of swap. The biggest issue is that there is no native EGR function. The other issue is that the testing facility will not see the proper ecu and information when connected electronically. There are programmable tables that could control the egr valve, but all of the intricacies of the OEM are not present.
In many areas, emissions are only tested at idle. In that case, EGR function isn't important since it's inactive at idle anyway. That limitation is a good point though. I'm curious what the process is for the test station and whether they really would know the difference in the ECM type. I can only speculate, perhaps they select the car type before connecting, and in that case it might fail to connect and they'd see an error. If it really is a problem, at least it looks like it would be pretty painless to swap to the old ECM for test day.
and I found some good news and bad news. Good news is, from what I can tell, in CA they don't connect to the ECM unless the car is OBD-2. They just look at the check engine light. Bad news is, for those of us who only have an idle test, the inspector is instructed to separately test the EGR system using "procedure prescribed by the vehicle manufacturer." I don't know what data they have on that, or if they really follow through with it, but the test procedure in the 1986 service manual would catch an EGR that simply doesn't operate. It's a little weird to me and hard to believe that they do this.. if they're going to all that trouble to function test the EGR, it seems it would be simpler to just do the dyno test like the city dwellers get. I expect in most states the EGR wouldn't be directly tested, just the tailpipe, so for them this wouldn't be a problem.
[This message has been edited by armos (edited 05-03-2012).]
well you can all move to NH they just look to see if the check engine light is off unless it is an OBD 2 car 1996 or newer they get pluged in so emissions test is realy not done
I have some questions, I did some looking on the delcohacking.net forum, but an overall observation didnt answer all of my questions, and since you have been operating with the 7165, I was wondering:
How does the fueling work for this code mask? I am starting a 4.0L Northstar swap, and my main interest is the fueling difference between your setup and the $A1 for the 7730, I am assuming this is all based on the $12P code mask.
This is for a turbo, but boost specifics aside, it works exactly the same. The fuel algorithms are outlined in the document. Basically:
BPW = BPC * MAP * T * A/F * VE * BVC * BLM * DFCO * DE * CLT * TBM
Where
BPW - Base Pulse Width BPC - Base Pulse Constant MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure T - Temperature A/F - Air Fuel Ratio VE - Volumetric Efficiency BVC - Battery Voltage Correction BLM - Block Learn DFCO - Decel Fuel Cutoff DE - Decel Enleanment CLT - Closed Loop TBM - Turbo Boost Multiplier
all of these terms are laid out in the document and calculated according to input from sensors.
The PE mode is entered when some throttle condition is met (I believe) e.g. throttle > 50%, enter PE. Idle VE is only used when there is no throttle signal present (it's idling) Main VE is used for everything (see above) Base pulse constant is used for everything (see above) Ve adder gets added to the above, I believe.
It's been a while, so forgive me.
I am wondering if this is the same fueling stategy for the code mask you are using as well. The car this motor is being used in will see only track use, and the 7730 fueling becomes less refined as RPM and MAP is increased, Exactly where I want the best fueling strategy, so that my mileage is amplified on the track. Idle, and part throttle AFR arent my biggest concern as the motor will spend the majority of its life above 4000rpm. I care about the ability to control pulse width above peak VE to maintain a strict AFR in power enrichment, and to keep accel and deccel enrichment responisve and econmical. the modified $A1 mask can control most of my needs, but I dont like the PE enrichment as it is only a scaler array added to the main VE table after peak VE (which ends in $A1 (4000) before the northstars peak VE (4400)) and fueling control ends in the 7730 after 6400 rpm. where i can see benefit on a road coarse to keep fueling control up to 7000rpm.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 05-03-2012).]
This code is using pretty much the same style of code, but with a few minor tweaks allowing for the use of a wideband sensor. There is no PE mode per se; this is mainly taken care of in the VE table and AFR table. If the VE table is tuned correctly, the fueling will take the desired AFR and enrich the mix to match what it thinks is the correct AFR. Using a wideband is needed to verify that the VE and desired AFR are actually correct as far as what the engine is seeing. The AFR table also is a 20 to 100 KPA and 400 to 9600 RPM 3d table. Matching VE and AFR data points is easy considering the tables are the same style and scales. I hope this covers what you mainly wanted. Unless one has been indoctrinated in this stuff, it can be a bit confusing at times.
Someone also asked about repining the harness and plugging it into the 3.4 TDC. To answer that question: Repining – yes Direct plug and play – most likely not This is assuming that a Fiero v6 harness is used.
Now if a stock harness has been modified to work on the 3.4, or the 3.4 harness is used, possibly. I would need a bit more information to form a more definitive response. Also, not having a 3.4 TDC and a harness lying around make measuring things a bit more difficult. Anyone want to make a donation?
I've looked at the .bin in tuner pro, and see exactly what you talking about. The way I see it, running a wideband all the time is a necessity then? Can one get the tune correct, or where they are comfortable, and then remove the wideband, and run only a narrowband hence forth?
The wideband is not a necessity all the time. The wideband makes tuning much easier though. The beauty of this is that the narrow-band is enough to tune with and maintain good fuel ratios if tuned correctly. The ecu can even self tune using the NBO2 (narrow-band) and not just by the long-term learn table (BLM). So to answer your question, once you have the tune where you want it, the WBO2 can be removed and use the NBO2 for minor corrections. Just make sure the MAP A/B narrow-band VE Learn function is turned off.
Sweet, I've made the decision to use this computer to try and control a 4.0l Northstar. From the supplied pinouts it looks like the knock sensor is not used in v8 applications? I dont know if you have experience, but couldn't I just enable the knock logging, and use knock retard with the v8 .bin?
For those interested in using this to replace the stock ecu in a vehicle that has regular emission testing, this is probably not going to be your best bet. This swap is more of a "for off road use only" type of swap. The biggest issue is that there is no native EGR function. The other issue is that the testing facility will not see the proper ecu and information when connected electronically. There are programmable tables that could control the egr valve, but all of the intricacies of the OEM are not present.
As for the 3.4 TDC/DOHC engine, it will control it without any trouble. The range of the code is somewhere near 9600 RPM, so you will run out of engine before fueling and spark. There are a few that must be changed to use this code with a DIS system, but nothing to worry about.
With the right tuning and paying attention to the details, I would venture to say that on average a person would be able to attain an average increase of 3 to 5 MPG. Remember though, results may vary.
This is the last year I have to do emission testing on my 88. Have you run one of these on a 3.4 PR swap already?
Sweet, I've made the decision to use this computer to try and control a 4.0l Northstar. From the supplied pinouts it looks like the knock sensor is not used in v8 applications? I dont know if you have experience, but couldn't I just enable the knock logging, and use knock retard with the v8 .bin?
As far as enabling knock with this ecu, you would need either an external knock module or a memcal with the correct or similar knock filter. With that taken care of, it is a matter of enabling the knock related parameters. Of course there is the matching the parameters to match your engine.
And now for your reading pleasure, I am about to transplant a 7165 with NVRAM/modified code into an 85 SE 2M4 with 5 speed. So far with the stock computer I have been able to attain 39 MPG. Let us see what the other setup is like. Considering that I have another 85 2m4, I am going to completely replace the ecu connectors with the 7165 ends. I this works like it should, I may make up adapters to go between the 7165 and the stock 4 cyl harness. Wish me luck.
Chet i want to try this on my 4.2 project i know i will need a reluctor wheel cut and have found the cad for it just need to get some one to do it and i suppose i will need the 2 crank sensors like in the N*
Finished the 2.25 dual exhaust on the 3500 and now the wideband now reads 11 to 1 at start up and 14.7 when warm. But only the front cylinders are firing.The fuse was blown and I don't know how long it has been that way. I have always felt the motor was down on power.Now I need to find the problem.
Make sure you get a memcal from a v6 7730 ecu and have a 512K EEPROM burned with your code. This is a backup in case the NVRAM gets corrupted. The test car that is in Missouri got water in the ecu and shorted a connection, corrupting the NVRAM. Luckily I had an extra memcal and flash chip that I could burn and send to the owner. So far working good, it just does not have the flash tuning and self learn abilities.
Slow, especially with paving season. 14 Hr days for most of the week takes it out of you, being in all the weather and the heat/fumes from the road material. Now that paving season is over, hopefully I will have more time to work on the many projects. I am close to having the trip computer finished. I just need to finalize a circuit design and get a couple made.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 09-22-2012).]
Since Four_hundred_86 will not bring my car back, I had to go purchase another car. Turns out that it is also an 86 SE v6 like the last one, only better. So now that I have another V6 car to work with, I will be getting back to working with the 1227165 ecu swap and get things dialed in better. Along with this I also plan on installing one of the first trip computer/digital instrument clusters into the car and use it as a test bed, so keep your eyes and ears open.
Feels good having a car that isn't needing much work and can be used.
What cpu does the 7165 use? If it was only used between 86-89, I doubt it's as fast as the one in the 7730. The language may be compatible and you may be able to adapt the code into a custom '7730 build. Just curious. They should all use the same family of processors. The Fiero ECM uses a 1Mhz 6800 and the '7730 uses a 4Mhz 6810, I believe.
Ah yes, I think it and the '7730 use the same cpu. 4Mhz. Now it's a question of RAM... I guess my point is that the code can easily be ported to run on a '7730 if a 7165 is hard to find...
The processor may be similar, but the hardware and porting is different. There already is a NVSRAM board for the 7730 but it is only ported for a modified version of $8D code. The board is available in kit and assembled form from moates.net. The $8D code has a fairly steep learning curve, but once mastered, I believe it is the best code for use in the 7730 in non-boosted applications. It is even compatible with the Fiero EGR system. No adapters needed for a digital EGR module.
Oh, the 7165 was also used in the S series pickup with the 2.5 Duke engine prior to the switch to the 2.2. Availability should not be a problem.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 02-01-2013).]
Right but remapping ports is no biggie. I guess the big difference then is that the 7165 has non-volatile RAM where as the '7730 doesn't.
They probably both use the same processor at the same speed. I was wondering because I'm already using a '7730 in one of my cars and I hate downgrades.
Technically, they both do not have NVRAM stock. The NVRAM is an add-on for the 7165 that goes in place of the memcal.
There is no "downgrade" as far as processor speed. For the physical abilities between the two, the 7730 wins over the 7165. The 7165 is limited on the number of outputs and inputs. I have found that the 7165 has what is needed for most swaps, other than native EGR control with the modified code. This can be dealt with in a fairly simplistic way in the code, though I have not had a chance to try it yet.
Personally, considering that you already have the 7730 in your car, stay with it. You already have it matched to your vehicle and it is something that you know. I, on the other hand, am one who is always trying something different because. . .
Just can't leave well enough alone.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 02-05-2013).]
The processor may be similar, but the hardware and porting is different. There already is a NVSRAM board for the 7730 but it is only ported for a modified version of $8D code. The board is available in kit and assembled form from moates.net. The $8D code has a fairly steep learning curve, but once mastered, I believe it is the best code for use in the 7730 in non-boosted applications. It is even compatible with the Fiero EGR system. No adapters needed for a digital EGR module.
Oh, the 7165 was also used in the S series pickup with the 2.5 Duke engine prior to the switch to the 2.2. Availability should not be a problem.
i running my 86 SE 2.8/auto with S_AUJPV4, i highly modified $8D, with pretty good success so far. just need to fine tune a few things but the extended VE table(6400rpm) and spark table is copied and interpolated from $24. AE needs tweaked since im using bosch III 19#ers and havent messed with PE yet since i have yet to install the KS. if you are interested i can send you what i have so far.
I am very well versed in that particular code. I was using that in my 86GT prior to ventelating the block on the V5 engine. I also used it in a 79 Dodge Omni with 90 VW Golf GTI engine/trans and a Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser EFI conversion. Quite versatile if you know what you are doing.
I am always game to see what others are doing in the tuning world. You could send some datalogs and I could help you with your tuning if you want.
I am very well versed in that particular code. I was using that in my 86GT prior to ventelating the block on the V5 engine. I also used it in a 79 Dodge Omni with 90 VW Golf GTI engine/trans and a Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser EFI conversion. Quite versatile if you know what you are doing.
I am always game to see what others are doing in the tuning world. You could send some datalogs and I could help you with your tuning if you want.
i figured you would be familiar LOL. if you know your way around the assembly i could use a suggestion or two. ill send you a PM so i dont hijack your thread, stby...
OK, so I finally have a weekend that I do not have to either go somewhere or get called in due to bad weather. I took this opportunity to install the 7165 into the "NEW" 86 SE v6. I was able to remove the center console, remove the old ecu, re-pin the connecters, and install everything in the reverse order in under an hour. I took it out for a ride using the base tune I made for Four_Hundred_86, nothing else done to the code. With the cold start injector disconnected, the engine started without issue and settled into a nice idle. Idles at a near perfect 900 RPM with no fluctuation. While out dataloging some, I got the urge to "Go Fast", so I went with it. Before traffic forced a landing, I was able to attain 114 indicated via GPS, 109 through datalog. Good to know there is a discrepancy there. I was still accelerating, albeit somewhat slowly. Prior to the 7165 swap, I was barely able to crack 100 GPS on the same run and weather conditions.
Keep in mind that this was taking place at 8300 Feet. Not bad if I may say so.
Four_Hundred_86, you can keep the car. I have one of my own now.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 02-05-2013).]
I find the biggest problem with the Fiero idle is the IAC. I think it tends to over/under compensate. I think I smoothened mine on the '7730/$A1 using a lower step count.
I find the biggest problem with the Fiero idle is the IAC. I think it tends to over/under compensate. I think I smoothened mine on the '7730/$A1 using a lower step count.
I agree, using the stock computer. There are ways of tuning the under/over swing, but messing with PID loops can be a headache if not done correctly. A good way to look at the IAC is as a semi-controlled vacuum leak. Repeat after me, Vacuum Leaks Are Bad. I usually keep my iac count at warm idle in the 10 to 20 range with all loads off. The ignition also contributes to the idle characteristics as well. The $A1 code should have idle spark advance compensation, and the $12P code I am using does. Once fueling is correct as well as ignition, the IAC should move very little if at all to keep a smooth idle.
I am also looking very closely at this swap as an alternative to the 7730 ECM and EBL-P4 ECM (modified 7730) swaps.
I noticed you are obsessed with fuel mileage.
We know the Fiero V6 is "batch fire" on the injectors and that SFI (Sequential Fuel Injection) would be the most efficient but would require lots of rewiring to the engine harness to make it work on a stock V6 engine.
While reading up on this stuff, I came across something where someone changed the code to "bank fire" so each bank of injectors only fires on every other revolution as appropriate for those cylinders on that bank, as opposed to both banks firing on EVERY revolution as the batch fire normally works. Is this something you've looked at?
I am not obsessed with mileage, just so happens I was pushing the envelope while testing. Results were promising but I would not run these settings in a real world application, kind of hard on valves and exhaust manifolds.
The 7165 is batch fire only as well, only one injector driver. The 12P code does have a setting to switch between "single-fire" and "double-fire" modes. The single-fire mode is beneficial in applications with very high flow injectors that are unstable at low injector open times. Instead of delivering the fuel every crank revolution, single fire delivers fuel every other crank rev but doubles the injector open time to deliver the needed fuel. Would work in a boosted application with large injectors and still maintain a decent idle.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 07-26-2013).]
Turns out that it is also an 86 SE v6 like the last one, only better. So now that I have another V6 car to work with, I will be getting back to working with the 1227165 ecu swap and get things dialed in better. Along with this I also plan on installing one of the first trip computer/digital instrument clusters into the car and use it as a test bed, so keep your eyes and ears open. 
I also used it in a 79 Dodge Omni with 90 VW Golf GTI engine/trans and a Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser EFI conversion. Quite versatile if you know what you are doing. 
