What engine are we looking at? Meeting those criteria is likely going to need and OBDII style PCM. If SFI is not needed, the 16197427 can be setup do work the way you want and still is OBDI and uses an EPROM. The code for this PCM is capable of PFI and wideband O2. It has even been hacked to allow the use of a MAF sensor for tuning if so desired. I have not got into OBDII much, so I am no help in that arena. Phonedawgz or others could point you in the right direction.
I just completed a 600 mile round trip this weekend using the 1227165 code/NVRAM. This was mostly mountain driving, up to and including Vail Pass to Grand Junction in Colorado. I averaged about 30+ MPG. There was nothing special with the tune and there was the several hours of idling and stop n’ go when Interstate 70 was closed due to a mudslide near Parachute. No special tuning, no lean fueling mode, and very little showing off for the audi's and bimmers. Lowest MPG I attained was 25, highest was 38. Not bad for an 86 SE with 4 speed at an average of 72 MPH most of the trip. Good fuel economy and still enough power to pull all but the steepest sections of highway in high gear.
Okay, I'm stuck...How do you get these fricken pins out of the connector? Do I need a special tool?
There is a special tool, but I just use a straightened-out paper clip. Push the lead into the connector from the back, push the paperclip in the hole (above the hole where the ecu pin goes in), and then pull the lead out. It might take a couple of tries before you get the hang of pushing back the lead's locking tab with the paper clip.
Looking for a (1997-ish) Northstar stock timing map to use as a base in the 7165 $12P code. I don't want to use the $A1 map from the 7730 I am replacing with Chet's 7165 idea - I don't know that the $A1 map is right. Anyone?
The 7165 will also do 8192 baud as long as a 10k resistor is used between aldl pin A and B.
Chet - a few clarifications and questions....
A 10K resistor between aldl pins A and B enables 8192 baud rate? This is not mentioned in the write-up that came with the NVRAM board or in notes by VL400 on PCM Hacking.net and is easily missed in your notes - please confirm this is right.
The knock filter on the original pcm memcal is used by the MVRAM board if no solder-on knock filter is installed?
When burning a tuned bin on the memcal for "limp-home" does the file have to be offset?
Where in the OSE12P code do you enable / disable the VE learn and alter the rate of learn? I see the the VE learn parameters but do you know of some write-up that will take the guessing out of how each learn parameter influences the learn function? ( I have copies of the Basic Tuning and Advanced Tuning of 12P ECM's but VE-learn is not covered in either document)
If the same bin is burned on the original memcal as is on the NVRAM, how do you know you are on "limp" mode? Does this condition register an error code?
I have my OSE12P bin revised enough now that I think it will suit the Northstar and I will install it in the new year - I am really looking forward to how it will work.
Originally posted by Daviero: A 10K resistor between aldl pins A and B enables 8192 baud rate? This is not mentioned in the write-up that came with the NVRAM board or in notes by VL400 on PCM Hacking.net and is easily missed in your notes - please confirm this is right.
I have run this with and without the 10k with the same results. The code is hardcoded for 8192.
quote
Originally posted by Daviero: The knock filter on the original pcm memcal is used by the MVRAM board if no solder-on knock filter is installed?
Correct, if the memcal is in place and has an appropriate knock filter. I will have to dig through my notes about the input pin for the knock sensor. It is a different pin than the stock 1227165 which uses an external knock filter.
quote
Originally posted by Daviero: When burning a tuned bin on the memcal for "limp-home" does the file have to be offset?
If you are using a 27SF512, offsets are needed. If using tunerpro to burn through something like an autoprom, the offset should be taken care of automatically. If not, ofsett the file to the last half of the chip. 8000 to FFFF should work with the 512 style chips.
quote
Originally posted by Daviero: Where in the OSE12P code do you enable / disable the VE learn and alter the rate of learn? I see the the VE learn parameters but do you know of some write-up that will take the guessing out of how each learn parameter influences the learn function? ( I have copies of the Basic Tuning and Advanced Tuning of 12P ECM's but VE-learn is not covered in either document)
The enable bits are in the Flag section of the bin definition. There are a couple for each of the MAP A/B. One is for wideband and the other is for narrowband. As for the other settings, there is some discussion on the pcmhacking forum, but I just played with them till I got to a point that worked for me. I do not use the learn function much at all because I tune differently, a bit more hands on so to speak.
quote
Originally posted by Daviero: If the same bin is burned on the original memcal as is on the NVRAM, how do you know you are on "limp" mode? Does this condition register an error code?
The size of the code is larger than most of the memcal eproms gm used, so make sure it is 32K vs 16K (27c256 vs 27c128). Limp home will set the ses light and the engine will usually run, but not very well. If a code is set, it is usually a code 51.
Any chance of you offering a pre-programmed chip/memcal? Somewhat computer illiterate. I would like to enhance my 88 GT's 5 speed MPG, maybe add lean cruise. Kerry
and I found some good news and bad news. Good news is, from what I can tell, in CA they don't connect to the ECM unless the car is OBD-2. They just look at the check engine light. Bad news is, for those of us who only have an idle test, the inspector is instructed to separately test the EGR system using "procedure prescribed by the vehicle manufacturer." I don't know what data they have on that, or if they really follow through with it, but the test procedure in the 1986 service manual would catch an EGR that simply doesn't operate. It's a little weird to me and hard to believe that they do this.. if they're going to all that trouble to function test the EGR, it seems it would be simpler to just do the dyno test like the city dwellers get. I expect in most states the EGR wouldn't be directly tested, just the tailpipe, so for them this wouldn't be a problem.
Since that time, I've passed an idle emissions test with the EGR electronically non-functional. It would appear the inspector does the quick and simple test - open the valve by hand to see if it causes the engine to stumble. If that happens then they infer the system is working. This is only relevant to people who don't have to take the rolling dyno test.
I'd be surprised if the inspectors in any state actually connect to the ECM on an OBD-1 model, but I guess it's possible. California doesn't do this, they only connect if it's OBD-2. So on an OBD-1 car they won't know what ECM is installed.
For people in rural California (and maybe other states) who are only subject to an idling test, one could almost use this ECM swap except for just one issue. Checking the ignition timing. The inspector will check to see if the ignition base timing is at 10 degrees. So the ECM needs to behave as expected when the A-B terminals are shorted. From what I've read, the 7165 does not react to the A-B terminals in the same way. 7165 requires you to disconnect a connector, which isn't what the inspector will be expecting on this model vehicle. I don't know how much demand there would be for this, or how difficult it would be, but I wonder if it would be feasible to copy the A-B behavior from the 7170 or other similar ECM. That way vehicles that came factory with the A-B feature could keep it working while using this swap.
Im have no idea if this could be accomplised via ecm programing, but with a normally closed relay and a little creative wiring Im sure it could be accomplished
quote
Originally posted by armos:
For people in rural California (and maybe other states) who are only subject to an idling test, one could almost use this ECM swap except for just one issue. Checking the ignition timing. The inspector will check to see if the ignition base timing is at 10 degrees. So the ECM needs to behave as expected when the A-B terminals are shorted. From what I've read, the 7165 does not react to the A-B terminals in the same way. 7165 requires you to disconnect a connector, which isn't what the inspector will be expecting on this model vehicle. I don't know how much demand there would be for this, or how difficult it would be, but I wonder if it would be feasible to copy the A-B behavior from the 7170 or other similar ECM. That way vehicles that came factory with the A-B feature could keep it working while using this swap.
Any chance of you offering a pre-programmed chip/memcal? Somewhat computer illiterate. I would like to enhance my 88 GT's 5 speed MPG, maybe add lean cruise. Kerry
I can program chips and install into memcals compatible with this setup, but it will not be optimal for your vehicle. I have few modifications on my engine and then some. For the lean cruise, there are two fueling maps available at the flip of a switch enabling switching between MPG and normal or performance settings.
For people in rural California (and maybe other states) who are only subject to an idling test, one could almost use this ECM swap except for just one issue. Checking the ignition timing. The inspector will check to see if the ignition base timing is at 10 degrees. So the ECM needs to behave as expected when the A-B terminals are shorted. From what I've read, the 7165 does not react to the A-B terminals in the same way. 7165 requires you to disconnect a connector, which isn't what the inspector will be expecting on this model vehicle. I don't know how much demand there would be for this, or how difficult it would be, but I wonder if it would be feasible to copy the A-B behavior from the 7170 or other similar ECM. That way vehicles that came factory with the A-B feature could keep it working while using this swap.
The ecm does sets the ignition to a fixed advance when in test mode. Let do a little research on this and I will get back to you.
you can ajust the IAC but you have to use very small increments of ajustments ,, you can use thinner or thicker gasket,,you can sand down the gasket ,or use thinner which is the better option,, you need a new G.M. delco pick up coil to get best results 50/50 chance Pick up coil will improve idle it seems you need karnac,or proper magic kharma to get the proper Idle if you have one of the Brown ,(name Brand) IAC ,some of them are not up to snuff/specs,, they were sold by Advance auto parts a few years back
I recieved my set-up from Chet a few months ago and finally decided to install it. My car hasn't run for years and this was my final step to get her started. It worked like a charm, and Chet was really easy to work with!
I got my ECM and NVram from Chet back in the fall, but then winter hit - been hibernating.
Chet - I'm looking at installing this on weekend of April 19-20 (check your email).
With this setup, a knock sensor and wide-band O2 I should be able to:
Control a 1, 2, or 3 bar system. Control a distributor or DIS system. Use a knock sensor with controller or an internal knock filter like the 7730/7749. Full use of wide-band sensor inputs, not just display lambda/A/F ratio. Full self learn using wide-band as well as narrow-band O2 sensor, even both if so desired. Can control EGR but is not native to the code, will need to use one of the four user configurable outputs. Tuning is done real-time using nothing but the ALDL port and Tunerpro RT. Same goes for flashing a new tune to the controller, no need to remove the ECU for an update to the code.
Does anyone know where Chet has gotten to these days?? I've haven't been successful with PM or emails the last 2 weeks..... I had his phone number and talked with him last fall, but seem to have misplaced it.
I've just gotten around to installing the 7165 ECM w/NVRAM and custom BIN that he put together for me. I was very careful with the wiring as he outlined in the spread sheet he sent me.
I got it all connected and hit the key to crank it up. Lots of gas but no spark at all!
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-21-2014).]
Here's how the ECMs compare when stacked up. You can see how all 3 use the exact same connectors.
1227165 - what I installed (top one) 1227170 - 87 ECM from my GT (BIN reprogrammed for S/C) 1226869 - 85 ECM w/custom programmed BIN I had been running (S/C with knock sensor)
Here's the 1227165 next to the 1227730. You can see the rewiring that would be involved in the 7730 ECM swap. I had planned doing a 7730 swap but was stymied by all that rewiring.
Here's the guts of the 1227165 with NVRAM installed - this makes it real-time programmable. The 7165 has the same processing power of the 7730 with a lot less rewiring to install it.
Wires relocated - D13>A11, A11>C12, D12>D2, B4>D4 joined together - C11/C12, D14/D15, C15/D16, D10/A12 (ground) new added - B7 (knock), D8 (WBO2) Only wire left disconnected is for the EGR on D8 (reused location for WB02). EGR is non-functional now in the $12P bin.
Just a jumper added on the back of the MB
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-24-2014).]
Still here, just have projects of my own keeping me busy. I have not received and new PM's or email messages so not sure what is going on there. I do have your number and will give a call today sometime.
Still here, just have projects of my own keeping me busy. I have not received and new PM's or email messages so not sure what is going on there. I do have your number and will give a call today sometime.
Chet.
Good to know you didn't fall off the face of the earth
Looking over the code right now. Wondering if ignition is set for DIS instead of distributor or something similar wrong.
Well, we can't get the 7165 ECM to flash any "Check Engine" error codes or communicate through the ALDL with any programs. The ECM will run the fuel pump at "key on" so the ECM IS getting power and I guess it's not completely dead.
I think either the NVRAM board has a problem, or the jumpers on it aren't set right. Looking for documentation right now... This thing replaces the stock memcal that the ECM would have originally come with. (this is picture of earlier version)
It looks like you can install the original memcal as well. Not really sure what the purpose of that would be. I've tried this board with and without the memcal. The ECM still doesn't respond to anything.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-21-2014).]
Based on the information you have been providing, there is a good chance the NVRAM is at fault. I have been having issues with the new batch of nvram boards loosing their data. I have one in my car and ran into the same problem upon initial install. The NVRAM chip does ave a battery internal that has a finite lifespan, but this is to short of a time to be a dead battery I do have a different NVram board that works but without the setting jumpers. It is set up strictly for use in a V6 application and does not have the header for the memcal. It does have a battery that can be replaced.
The memcal installs on the side pins of the NVram board to provide the redundant fueling calibration. Basically this is the limp home mode.
I had been considering doing the 7730 swap, but from I've read here now I 'm not so sure! I have acquired two 7730's for the swaap. Now I'm considering a 165 swap. Particularly so with fewer wire changes required.
The big question, who among you have actually done this conversion and what results have you had?
Who do I Ned to contact or what is needed to do this conversion?
Other than the issue Fierosound has, the others that I have helped or worked on are running. Sound's issue is one I unwittingly caused when compiling the code for his project. Data is not of much use without the operating system to use said data. I have a new chip ready to send out for him. I am having issues with my swap, but this is ECU problems and has nothing to do with the NVRAM or the code. Some re-manufactured computers are not as "tested" as the originals were. I need to track down a cold solder joint somewhere.
Thank you ,thank you for bringing this up..I want to get input on which is best, chet77 or darth vader for the ECM modifications & actual use please post your actual experience with Idle , performance & MPG I got no answer from my first inquery I am leaning towards chet77 but want the information from fiero forum users on their actual experience with Darth fiero ECM modification also
Thank you ,thank you for bringing this up..I want to get input on which is best, chet77 or darth vader for the ECM modifications & actual use please post your actual experience with Idle , performance & MPG I got no answer from my first inquery I am leaning towards chet77 but want the information from fiero forum users on their actual experience with Darth fiero ECM modification also
I have used both the 7730 and the 7165, although I used the $8D code in the 7730, not the $88 code that most are using. Overall both are fairly even performance wise between the two when tuned correctly. The 7730 is matched well to the 2.8 out of the box as it was used with the 2.8 in other applications. The 7165 has needed significant tuning to match the 2.8, but nothing a competent tuner couldn't do. I have my tune working great but need to tune the high load range a bit more, still running a bit rich. Fuel economy was evenly matched, but the 7165 with the correct settings was able to achieve over 40 MPG. The caveat though is that this was with air-fuel ratios upwards of 17:1. Such lean ratios are not the best for exhaust valve longevity. I currently achieve over 30 MPG with the 3.65 final four speed trans in my 86 SE.
A big point to consider is if you live in an area that requires emissions testing. The 7730 does have EGR control but the 7165 does not. There is a work around to get rudimentary EGR control but I have not tested this yet.
The 7165 wins for simplicity of installation. With just a few wire that need to be moved in the ecu connectors and a couple that are left out, the stock harness and ecu tray can be retained without any surgery.
If you are one that loves to tinker with the tune, the 7165 is fun and does not need any extra hardware other than a PC compatible computer and an aldl adapter. Do keep in mind that the NVRAM used in the 7165 does have a battery that will got flat after a while, so it is not a permanent installation. I always keep a memcal with the most recent good tune in the car in case of unforeseen issues. The 7730 can be tuned on the fly with the help of an emulator.
The 7165 is starting to bet a bit harder to find in the junk yards and on the net it can be a bit pricey. The 7730 can be found just about everywhere.
In summation, either is going to require some work to get going but can be a fun learning experience.
Chet W.
PS, I just returned from running my car on the replacement NVRAM I programmed for Fierosound. I had an extra 2-Bar map sensor so the comp would work correctly. A bit lean under higher loads due to the injectors not being what the code is set for, but it idled nice and smooth at 700 RPM and cruised fine.
Thank you , your setup may be over my skill level,,I have had someone helping me who is very knowledgeable about Fiero but he is not up on the ECM modification,, Im not sure what a NVRAM is ! I will read again
PS, I just returned from running my car on the replacement NVRAM I programmed for Fierosound. I had an extra 2-Bar map sensor so the comp would work correctly. A bit lean under higher loads due to the injectors not being what the code is set for, but it idled nice and smooth at 700 RPM and cruised fine.
Just got it and put in in. I think I've done something to disable by car !
Previously, it got gas no spark.
Now it fired up and ran rough for about half a minute at about 500rpm before dying - no response to throttle
I thought it might have been running on gas still in cylinders. But it won't restart and I smell gas?? Maybe it flooded and died??
Tried connecting laptop with TunerPro RT on it - won't recognize the ECM. Tried the WinFlash program to read BIN file and get timed out - no connection error.
I'm going to go recheck all the wiring AGAIN. I must have messed something up. But if that checks out, I don't know what to do.
AND I'm stranded. Neither Fiero is driveable, and my daily driver Van is at the Dealership - ECM problems I dropped it off this morning. It's 3:00pm and they haven't even got it in the service shop yet.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-08-2014).]
I found a wire in the wrong place. I figured that would be it (problem solved?)
Nope. Laptop still doesn't recognize ECM although Windows on laptop does and installs COM port. So I'm trying to figure out this convoluted TunerPro RT OSE12 configuration (it looks right - just doesn't work).
With NVRAM I got today, engine starts, runs weakly, then dies. Just can't keep it running. Throttle doesn't seem to give it more gas.
It seemed better with the original NVRAM, but runs rough, rich (have to throttle to keep it from stalling) and Check Engine light comes on.
Been chatting with Chet. With his help we'll get it figured out.
Scanned ECM for codes - get a 33 - MAP sensor high. THAT makes sense to how it's running. So I have to follow that through and also consider that I may have damaged the ECM <damn>.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-08-2014).]
I guess Chet's the only guy who knows anything about how this works... (can't find him)
I've re-checked all the wiring again with particular attention to the 3 MAP connections as per Chet's wiring diagram. I've used an ohm-meter to verify that the connection at the MAP end is the same wire at the ECM end (and to the correct pin). I've back-probed the connections at the MAP (key on/engine off) - 5.1-volts in 2.1-volts out (2BAR MAP at 3500 feet) So there definitely doesn't seem to be anything wrong concerning the MAP.
Started it up, it floods, it stalls, it throws Error Code 33 (MAP high) again.
MAP input connects to C11 - a pin not normally used on the 7165. So either the ECM is not seeing that signal, or the program is not accepting it, or the MAP flag is not set as a 2BAR MAP.
Looks like I bought a re-man'd 1227165 ECM ($175) that I didn't really need to.
I still can't get the laptop programs to talk to this damn thing to see what's going on.
Not sure who's ALDL cable I'm using. Got it years ago (2002?) from someone here. It uses a 1/8" jack/plug to connect with the ALDL port. I'm positive the cable worked fine with WinALDL and both the 7170 and 6869 ECMs, but wanted to check its connections. I can't find any info on it anywhere...
ALDL setup no good. Best I can figure is that the cable you have is strictly for 160 baud and can only receive. What you need is one that can communicate at 8192 baud. Tunerpro needed to be able to send a data request packet to the ecu for it to start spilling it digital guts.
Once we get the ecu communicating with tunerpro, we will be able to see what the ecu is doing and why it does not like us.
Moates has a usb-aldl cable as well as phonedawgz.
.JPG)
.JPG)
.JPG)
.JPG)
Data is not of much use without the operating system to use said data. I have a new chip ready to send out for him. I am having issues with my swap, but this is ECU problems and has nothing to do with the NVRAM or the code. Some re-manufactured computers are not as "tested" as the originals were. I need to track down a cold solder joint somewhere. 
