Here is the back story. Last week I installed a different ecu into an 86 SE V6 with a 4 speed. The ecu I used is the 1227165. This is the same ecu used in the 86-89 camero and corvette with tpi. That is where the similarities end. Here is the reasoning behind this project; the ecu fits in the stock location, a total of five wires need re-pinned to work with the modified code, and this ecu is relatively easy to find. Even better is that the memcal from the 7730/7727 will work in this computer, just with a different code in the chip.
Now this is where things start to get weird. The code I am using is highly modified and is not based on anything closely related to the 7165 or the 7730. The good thing is that this code can run a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder engine whether it uses a distributor or not (DIS), so all our bases are covered in the ignition department. Well, at least for anything other than LT1 or LSX based. This code is MAP based, not MAF. This includes from 1 bar to 3 bar sensors. Wideband control is implemented and with the right hardware in the ecu, auto learn of the fueling tables is a reality. Let me sum it up to this, this combo can do just about anything megasquirt can do and still retain onboard diagnostics and factory wiring.
So far I have used it fir a week and I can tell you that it is worth while for those who want to swap their ecus and have the ability to do some tuning. I so far have gone from 25 MPG to 32 for that same route. This includes going from the altitude of 4500 feet to 10k in less than 60 miles, and having to travel through Fort Collins traffic to boot. I usually never go below 65 mph, so yes I do speed a bit.
I will post more information if anyone is interested.
I am curious as to what you are running and the mods done to the bin.
My old SBC swap ran the 7730 with the AUJP V4 custom bin that was developed by a few guys over on thirdgen.org... the features they added vs. the stock 8D configuration were quite impressive.
Interested! Does it require a knock sensor like the 7730, or a digital EGR valve? Did Ryan do the programming?
A knock sensor is not required, but is recommended. Now, there area couple of options with the sensor. If using a memcal with a knock filter attached, as is in the 7730's case, the sensor is run like the 7730 with the signal being fed into a certain pin on the ecu. If using an external knock filter, like the 7747 or normal 7165 tpi installation, the signal is fed into a different pin on the ecu. Oh, and get this, the code has a knock count logging function.
This code is not originally setup to control an egr valve, but using one of the programmable output pins, egr is easily implemented. And a digital EGR valve is not needed. I am controlling my egr with this code.
To answer your last question, no, Ryan did not program this.
Another thread brought up a point about this ecu and code setup; no need for the cold start injector. I have the wiring disconnected on my engine and it starts as fast or faster than the the stock setup.
This setup idles better as well. I have set the idle down to 600 RPM just for the heck of it. Smooth with no hunting but when the cooling fan kicks in, it usually dies when set that low. I have it set for 800 with no problems so far. Now I just need to wire the fan to the ecu and let the ecu idle up before turning o the fan.
hmmmm, i currently have a 7165 ecm in my clutches... 1987 s10 2.5L duke! you say that MEM/CAL will fit the 7730? i am purchasing a 7730 ecm from a fellow forum member as well to do some programming and learning on so this will be a interesting find. id like to see where this heads! what kind of hardware did you use to reprogram your setup with? i was looking at the Moates apu1 programming package seems like a good deal. as with all great threads...
The memcal should fit the 7730. Are you going with the 7730 for a 2.5 or the 2.8? I use the APU1 and the pocket programmer II for all my chip burning duties. As soon as I get som mods done to the ecu I will be able to tune directly through the aldl port and not have to use an emulator. Basically turns the ecu into a flash based computer.
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Originally posted by BlackGT Codde:
hmmmm, i currently have a 7165 ecm in my clutches... 1987 s10 2.5L duke! you say that MEM/CAL will fit the 7730? i am purchasing a 7730 ecm from a fellow forum member as well to do some programming and learning on so this will be a interesting find. id like to see where this heads! what kind of hardware did you use to reprogram your setup with? i was looking at the Moates apu1 programming package seems like a good deal. as with all great threads...
I'm definitely interested. My Fiero currently has a 7730 ECM, but I am looking for something with wideband O2 support. And fuel trim auto-tuning would rock! Any additional information you can provide would be very appreciated.
I will try to get some pic's today or tomorrow of the computer in place.
To use the learn function the ecu needs to be modified and a nvram module installed. With this mod the aldl flash tuning and auto learn can be enabled, otherwise tuning is by burning multiple chips or with an emulator.
When I did my TPI I used the stock Fiero V6 harness with the 165 and the 5D BIN from the australian V8s (5.0l). I had to modify the tune a lot for the 5.7 plus my mods (I have all Moates stuff for onboard programing with emulator-Ostrich). But the install looks stock. Which other BIN you say will run a V8? I may be more inclined to change to an LSx ECM and get all the benefits of newer tecnology.
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-17-2011).]
When I did my TPI I used the stock Fiero V6 harness with the 165 and the 5D BIN from the australian V8s (5.0l). I had to modify the tune a lot for the 5.7 plus my mods (I have all Moates stuff for onboard programing with emulator-Ostrich). But the install looks stock. Which other BIN you say will run a V8? I may be more inclined to change to an LSx ECM and get all the benefits of newer tecnology.
This code will operate a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder engine in either tbi or pfi mode, just depends on a few mods or the proper memcal. Going to the LSx computer opens up a whole new can of worms, especially when dealing with the crank sensors and pattern wheels. There are adapters out there, but they are quite expensive.
So far the temps around where I live have been in the teens and the car has started up without issue. Runs a little rich once started but idle is smooth and does not hunt around like the original computer did. Keep in mind that I have the cold start injector disconnected. I drove to Steamboat Springs and back today and was able to attain 33 MPG at 65 in the mountains up to 10K feet. 125 Miles with that milage seems pretty darned good to me, especially with a 4 speed Muncie. Anyone who has been to Steamboat knows that highway 40 going east there is about a 7 mile climb at about a 7% or more grade. Now I just need to get cruise installed.
Are you using a wide band O2 sensor to run the computer now? If so what were the modifications to do that? I don't care to have another gauge on my dash but if I could buy a sensor and read it with my scanner or tunerpro that would be something I would be interested in. Are wide bands heated?
I do have a wideband installed.I have it sending both wideband and narrowband signals to the computer just for grins. The only mod needed is a wideband controller tied into the computer through the ecm connector. As long as the controller sends out a linear voltage signal, it is compatible with this code and ecu. The narrowband is wired as normal for a 7165 ecu. The wideband data is sent out to tunerpro so no gauges needed.
Yes, wideband sensors are heated. They will not function correctly if they are not. The wideband controller is able to sense the temp of the sensor and keeps the temo within a certain range. Wideband sensors can even be installed in the tailpipe far away from the engine and still function.
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Originally posted by joshua riedl:
Are you using a wide band O2 sensor to run the computer now? If so what were the modifications to do that? I don't care to have another gauge on my dash but if I could buy a sensor and read it with my scanner or tunerpro that would be something I would be interested in. Are wide bands heated?
The computer does look for crosscounts on the narrowband side of life. The wideband controller I use outouts a simulated narrowband signal that I feed to the narrowband input on the ecu. As far as it knows, the signal that is sent to the narrow side is from a normal o2 sensor. The wideband signal is a different part of the computer logic and does not look for crosscounts.
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Originally posted by joshua riedl:
Are there any issues with the computer looking for crosscounts? Maybe wide bands work on crosscounts also, I have no idea.
Originally posted by chetw77cruiser: As soon as I get som mods done to the ecu I will be able to tune directly through the aldl port and not have to use an emulator. Basically turns the ecu into a flash based computer.
The computer does look for crosscounts on the narrowband side of life. The wideband controller I use outouts a simulated narrowband signal that I feed to the narrowband input on the ecu. As far as it knows, the signal that is sent to the narrow side is from a normal o2 sensor. The wideband signal is a different part of the computer logic and does not look for crosscounts.
So your ECM isn't actually getting a wideband signal, right? You're using a WBO2 controller to simulate a narrowband signal. So I'm assuming the ECM itself can't read a wideband (i.e. 0-5V) signal?
In regard to being able to flash tune the ecu through the aldl, the 7165 was never designed to do such a thing. What enables it to flash tune is two parts. One is that the EPROM is replaced with a form of non-volatile ram chip. Two is through the use of a highly modified code that allows the nvram to be written to as well as read from. The processor is capable of this if it is programmed correctly.
I can get a signal from a wideband sensor and it does use that information for many functions. I just have the controller feeding the ecu both wideband and narraowband signals at the same time. My controller allows for that. So the ecu can read a wideband signal. This is not necessary, but what the hey. If you wanted to you could have a WBO2 snesor and a NBO2 sensor also installed into another O2 sensor bung in the exhaust. Could be used as a way to doublecheck that either is working correctly.
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Originally posted by Blacktree:
So your ECM isn't actually getting a wideband signal, right? You're using a WBO2 controller to simulate a narrowband signal. So I'm assuming the ECM itself can't read a wideband (i.e. 0-5V) signal?
far cheaper than that other one mentioned. All someone needs to do is edit the codemask for the V6 to do the ALDL changes. Heck I think if someone talked to the guy he might give someone all the info they need to change the typical v6 Codemask to use this device. ------------------ Get your copy of the Fiero 25th Anniv book at http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/349809
I can get a signal from a wideband sensor and it does use that information for many functions. I just have the controller feeding the ecu both wideband and narraowband signals at the same time. My controller allows for that. So the ecu can read a wideband signal. This is not necessary, but what the hey. If you wanted to you could have a WBO2 snesor and a NBO2 sensor also installed into another O2 sensor bung in the exhaust. Could be used as a way to doublecheck that either is working correctly.
OK, thanks for clearing that up. In that case, I am definitely interested in this ECM setup. I have lots of questions. Should I send you a PM, or can I post them here?
Go ahead and post them here. Remember from school what the teachers said: Ask the question anyway, because someone else probably has the same question and is to shy to ask. I was usually the shy one.
Basically the same thing. I like the 7165 because it fits in the 7170 tray and uses the same ecm plugs. More of a plug and play operation. I will check to see if the code I use is compatible with this nvram board. What I am making is a little bit cheaper but requires the memcal to be modified.
If anyone wants to try this nvram with the modified 8D code, I have a base tune from my 86 GT with 4 speed. Transfer most of the parameters to the nvram code and thisng should work.
far cheaper than that other one mentioned. All someone needs to do is edit the codemask for the V6 to do the ALDL changes. Heck I think if someone talked to the guy he might give someone all the info they need to change the typical v6 Codemask to use this device.
[This message has been edited by chetw77cruiser (edited 10-22-2011).]
So far within a little over a week of tuning, I have the engine running much better than the stock ecu ever did. The engine pulls better and longer than it did before. Several times I have hit the rev limiter(5500) in no time whereas the stock ecu would strugle to get there. Did I mention that this code has a soft rev limiter that is fully configurable. If anyone wants to take a peek at the code, PM me for information. I should have a few pictures here shortly if I could just find my camera.
The first two are of the victim. Nevermind the missing decklid, it is in the garage curing after a fresh painting.
As one can see, the ecu is installed in the stock location in the stock ecm tray. I have the autoprom running the show right now while I am changing code quite frequently.
Just to show that the wideband is functional. I have a different WBO2 controller that will be installed in the ecu case and will use the stock connectors, just need to run a few extra wires. I do have this computer running the cooling fan by the way.
Just for the doubters out there. Your average 2.8 V6 stock, no mods with a 4 speed muncie.
Basically the same thing. I like the 7165 because it fits in the 7170 tray and uses the same ecm plugs. More of a plug and play operation. I will check to see if the code I use is compatible with this nvram board. What I am making is a little bit cheaper but requires the memcal to be modified.
If anyone wants to try this nvram with the modified 8D code, I have a base tune from my 86 GT with 4 speed. Transfer most of the parameters to the nvram code and thisng should work.
what kind of re-pinning have you done to the stock bulkhead connector? im intrigued or was there any, because it doesnt seem that you messed with the engine wiring harness
I did not have to re-pin the bulkhead connector. All I needed t do was re-pin the ecm connector, and that really only needed about 5 wires to be moved and a couple to be removed. For instance, the stock ecm used two signal lines from the map sensor, whereas the 7165 only needs one. Most everything else can stay in their normal location. This makes going back to the stock ecm really easy if needed.
From what I can see(low resolution), this is mostly what I used. Of course some of the input and output pins have been changed for other functions. For instance, the air divert valve is now the fan relay control. A3 is now a programable output instead of used for the canister purge valve.
Overall, most of the wiring is the same. I will make a pinout chart to go between the 7170 and the 7165.
From what I can see(low resolution), this is mostly what I used. Of course some of the input and output pins have been changed for other functions. For instance, the air divert valve is now the fan relay control. A3 is now a programable output instead of used for the canister purge valve.
Overall, most of the wiring is the same. I will make a pinout chart to go between the 7170 and the 7165.
Can you make me a nvram for an automatic car? I have an 86 automatic with 3.33 finals
I will need to get some parts to make one up. I will let folks know how much the nvram setup costs when completed. Keep in mind that all I have are manuals, no automatics. That shouldn't be a problem. With the tcc you will be giving up one of the programable outputs.
I will need to get some parts to make one up. I will let folks know how much the nvram setup costs when completed. Keep in mind that all I have are manuals, no automatics. That shouldn't be a problem. With the tcc you will be giving up one of the programable outputs.
Not a problem as I want to pretty well keep the set up as is untill I get about 5K on this new rebuild. Has about 200 miles on it now.
[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 10-23-2011).]
