Originally posted by Rodney: ...I may consider making some with no wheel stud holes. ...
You might consider machining small "dimples" in the flanges that mark where to drill for various bolt patterns. Maybe only 1/8" or so. Just enough to get a hole started.
Because of the setup involve, the machining cost of that option would be basically the same as drilling the holes all the way.
Also, the configuration management becomes more difficult... He still has to stock a different hub for every pattern.
If he produces anything other than stock, blank is the best option.
Because of the difficulty of changing the '88 rear pattern, I think that expecting someone who wants a different front pattern to be able to get the pattern drilled in a blank pair of hubs is reasonable.
... or Rodney could specify a single setup: drill holes on a 5x100mm bolt circle (the Fiero standard), and pilot-dimple only for 5x114.3mm (4.50 in) and 5x120mm (4.75 in) bolt circles. The usual shop practice is to pilot drill the stud holes before drilling them to the final finished size anyway, so a tool change is already going to be required, and the extra dimpling will probably take less than 20 seconds on a CNC vertical mill. The additional cost to pilot-dimple 10 extra points would probably be less than 50 cents per hub in production volume, and Rodney would only have one part to stock. The optimum angular offset looks a little weird, but there is definitely enough material in the hub flange to safely accommodate two (but not three) different bolt circles at the same time.
The advantage to pilot-dimpling is that the stud holes could then be drilled by anyone with a decent shop drill press and a machinist's vise. Without the dimples a vertical mill would probably be required to do it right unless you have a precision jig already made up.
I have access to a mill and I have already made my own jig, so I would be happy with any of the options discussed (drilled or undrilled, dimpled or undimpled). My preference would be either blank (undrilled, possibly dimpled) or a single bolt circle custom drilled by Rodney's machine shop as an extra-cost option.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-15-2011).]
To clarify... I was suggesting that the blank hubs be dimpled with several patterns.
This would involve two part numbers. The regular 5x100, with studs. Obviously the "bread and butter".
A blank hub with two or three (or more?) patterns other than 5x100 dimpled. No holes drilled. Anyone with a project advanced enough to want alternate bolt patterns would likely have the ability (and tools) to drill whatever pattern they wanted, using the dimples.
I'm thinking 114.3mm (Ford), 4.75" (Old GM) and 110mm (Solstice, etc.) Others? What are BMW and Benz? 120mm?
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-15-2011).]
I am working on possibly making some 88 front wheel bearing hubs that will have tapered roller bearings in them instead of the typical ball bearings. This will take some time. Hopefully I will get this done. We'll see.
Is there a problem with the OEM bearing, or is the tapered type just a more durable design?
The advantage to pilot-dimpling is that the stud holes could then be drilled by anyone with a decent shop drill press and a machinist's vise. Without the dimples a vertical mill would probably be required to do it right unless you have a precision jig already made up.
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Anyone with a project advanced enough to want alternate bolt patterns would likely have the ability (and tools) to drill whatever pattern they wanted, using the dimples.
Both of you think about what's required to change the rear pattern on an '88 and upgrade the strength of the rear bearings.
For an '84-'87 car, you can bolt in A-body or even U-body knuckles to have the 5x115 pattern and heavy duty bearings. Changing the rear pattern on an '88 requires much more machine and/or fab work.
If someone can tackle that job, I think they'll either have the tools themselves or be on a first name basis with a machine shop that can put whatever pattern they want into a blank hub.
I think the relative ease with which people find shops to part off their '84-'87 front brake rotors for brake upgrades shows that this really isn't a big enough deal to make it worth Rodney's time/effort to drill dimples or pilot holes.
Also, what about the guys who want to use the Porsche 5x130 pattern (It's been done at least twice)? You can't cover all the bases. You can't cover some of the bases without reducing the value of the product for the bases you didn't cover. Better not to cover any and let people deal with it themselves.
First and foremost, Rodney has to show a profit on this product or it won't happen.
That means selling the hubs with the 5X100 pattern to the largest part of the market - 88 Fieros with stock pattern wheels.
IF he were to decide to offer hubs for those who want to change the pattern to something besides the stock 5X100, profitability concerns would dictate that the hub face would be blank, and the customer would absorb the cost of the custom pattern.
It only makes sense from a business standpoint.
Again, my thanks to Mr. Dickman for developing this much needed product for our community.
IF he were to decide to offer hubs for those who want to change the pattern to something besides the stock 5X100, profitability concerns would dictate that the hub face would be blank, and the customer would absorb the cost of the custom pattern.
Exactly... and my opinion is that the customer base would be fine with that.
... this really isn't a big enough deal to make it worth Rodney's time/effort to drill dimples or pilot holes.
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
First and foremost, Rodney has to show a profit on this product or it won't happen.
That means selling the hubs with the 5X100 pattern to the largest part of the market - 88 Fieros with stock pattern wheels.
I agree on that point; I have already said that any of the options being discussed would work fine for me personally. I was just considering various options from both the customers' and Rodney's viewpoints.
A final idea would be for Rodney to offer just the standard 5X100 pattern, and possibly a undrilled option as well. Then he (or somebody) could offer a separate precision jig/template/jig for those who want a different bolt circle. Of course, just having a machine shop do the work is always an option as long as the flange diameter is adequate, which Rodney has already indicated will be the case.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-17-2011).]
...I think they'll either have the tools themselves or be on a first name basis with a machine shop that can put whatever pattern they want into a blank hub.
I think the relative ease with which people find shops to part off their '84-'87 front brake rotors for brake upgrades shows that this really isn't a big enough deal to make it worth Rodney's time/effort to drill dimples or pilot holes.
Also, what about the guys who want to use the Porsche 5x130 pattern (It's been done at least twice)? You can't cover all the bases. You can't cover some of the bases without reducing the value of the product for the bases you didn't cover. Better not to cover any and let people deal with it themselves.
Fair enough. You're probably right.
OTOH, I couldn't find a shop, locally, who was willing to enlarge 56.1 centerbores to 57.1, for less than the cost of a first born or a major appendage, so the "friendly neighborhood machine shop" doesn't hold true everywhere. You'd think otherwise, in a western burb of Atlanta. I was amazed.
While searching 88 Fiero wheel bearings, I found this on google: http://www.rodneydickman.com/n091.html but no way to get to it from his website. Is this an old page?
Just saw this thread and had an idea???????????????? That in itself could be problematic!!!!! Can an axle shaft be made to bolt to the 88 knuckle and then use a turned down rotor system from an early car with the appropriate rotor over it?
Making progress. This one will take time. I'm pretty sure I will get it done.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I received a sample. This is not an 88 wheel bearing. It is a sample wheel bearing to show me how they make their wheel bearings. You can see the tapered bearings. I hope to be successful on this project but it will take several months yet.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Am I seeing an outer race that's separate from the housing, or is that just the cage? Will the outer race be integral with the housing?
I guess I'll have to open it up. I can't easily chuck it up in my lathe but maybe I can saw off the end and get it apart. I'll try.
If I have these made I will have larger hole patterns machined in. Just a centering hole depression. Will make it easy to drill out if one chooses.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Am I seeing an outer race that's separate from the housing, or is that just the cage? Will the outer race be integral with the housing?
I just received a drawing from the manufacturer. The inner races are separate pieces pressed on to the inner shaft and the outer race is the hub itself. I'll take apart the sample they sent me to see what the inside race looks like and the surface of the outer hub the bearings ride on.
They supplied me with a drawing I need to check and verify their measurements. Once I OK this project they have to make the stamping dies to forge the parts. So it will take some time yet. But it is moving forward.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Am I seeing an outer race that's separate from the housing, or is that just the cage? Will the outer race be integral with the housing?
What you see is the plastic cage that holds the bearings in place.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I have paid some tooling fees and this project is underway. They will make the tooling and and make a sample. Hopefully I will have a sample bearing hub here in maybe 6-7 weeks or so. Once I OK the sample they will make the first batch. My guess is if all goes well I will have them in stock in maybe 4-5 months or so. I'll post some pictures when the sample arrives.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
You mentioned in another thread that you might be able to put together a rubber bushing set for the '88 rear suspension. Is that project still on the table? I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but I figure the same folks will be interested in both products.
You mentioned in another thread that you might be able to put together a rubber bushing set for the '88 rear suspension. Is that project still on the table? I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but I figure the same folks will be interested in both products.
I have paid some tooling fees and this project is underway. They will make the tooling and and make a sample. Hopefully I will have a sample bearing hub here in maybe 6-7 weeks or so. Once I OK the sample they will make the first batch. My guess is if all goes well I will have them in stock in maybe 4-5 months or so. I'll post some pictures when the sample arrives.
I understand there is still a good distance to the finish line on this project, but if this works out and the bearings are durable in race conditions, would it be possible to produce tapered roller--or just more durable--rear bearings?
You mentioned in another thread that you might be able to put together a rubber bushing set for the '88 rear suspension. Is that project still on the table? I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but I figure the same folks will be interested in both products.
They are making the sample. This involves making the stamping dies which I paid for several weeks ago. I'll check up on this. I have not heard from them for a while but this does take time.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I've been told the sample is finished and I hope to have it in a week or two. I have not told them about adding the dimples for other bolt hole patterns for the lug nuts but that will be easy to do before they make the first batch. I'll post some pictures when it gets here.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Curiosity... Are they sticking to the "depth" of the stock '88 cartridge?
IE, the outer housing of the stock '88 cartridge is only about as deep as the thickness of the knuckle and the dustcap protrudes only slightly from the back of the knuckle.
The housing could be made probably 2 inches deeper before it would interfere with the spring. This would allow the distance between the bearings to be increased significantly.
Because the load on a bearing pair is proportional to the inverse of the 3rd or 4th power of the distance between them, increasing the distance dramatically reduces the bearing loads.
Curiosity... Are they sticking to the "depth" of the stock '88 cartridge?
IE, the outer housing of the stock '88 cartridge is only about as deep as the thickness of the knuckle and the dustcap protrudes only slightly from the back of the knuckle.
The housing could be made probably 2 inches deeper before it would interfere with the spring. This would allow the distance between the bearings to be increased significantly.
Because the load on a bearing pair is proportional to the inverse of the 3rd or 4th power of the distance between them, increasing the distance dramatically reduces the bearing loads.
I'm making them like OEM. The sample they sent me which I'm thinking is maybe a full size truck bearing is also short. Any longer and my ball joint tool is no longer useful as the bearing would be over the ball joint shafts. I'm staying with the OEM size.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
