After all the time , money and effort I put into having these made and one person has to rip on me.
quote
When your wheel falls off
If you would look back at the pictures I posted of these you would see it is next to impossible for one to come apart. The caliper also would not allow a hub to come off the car. Worst case is they would slowly start to growl and get noisy. Are you that stupid?
It is obvious you only want to rip on me. I wonder why?? Answer that question.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
In my opinion you are only looking to try and stick it to me for your own personal pleasure. I never suggested these would hold up for track use. I thought they would. Maybe they won't. So now you seem to want to use this to take jabs at me. Good for you.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
[This message has been edited by Rodney (edited 06-08-2014).]
sardonyx247: it is too bad you seem to have this dislike for me. You may remember back when I looked to have the larger boosters made as new units. I had a batch of HD push rods made in a larger diameter just to insure I would never have a push rod/banjo failure. Ultimately I decided against continuing on with the larger brake boosters. But: I have about 280 HD push rods on hand and no use for them. Gee - I wonder who could use them? So these occasional jabs at me really paid off now didn't it.
So everyone you sell a booster to now has to pack up and send you their old booster just so you can get the banjo out of it. I'm guessing all your customers would rather have a Hd push rod/banjo in your brake boosters and not have to ship their old booster to you. Am I right??
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I have enough of Rodney's productions on my 88 Formula to have a pretty good idea of the quality he sells. I'm not at all concerned about someone else's gripes. If it was proven for racing, he'd say so. Even the factory will tell you racing voids the warranty on most anything.
This project took many years and a lot of effort. If not for these we would all be looking at the eBearing as the only 88 wheel hub ever available. Time will tell if mine hold up better than the eBearing units. Maybe someday someone else will come along and produce a HD version that will hold up on race cars. Hopefully until then I don't get bashed too much that mine do not hold up as well as the OEM GM units do on high G force race cars.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Boy, guess I assumed since they were tapered rollers and that Rodney talked about taking one apart, I thought they'd be rebuildable. So that's my new question, can they be taken apart?
[This message has been edited by ennored (edited 06-09-2014).]
I thought they'd be rebuildable. So that's my new question, can they be taken apart?
I don't wish to be possibly contributing to misinformation. With talk on the previous page of the grease cap perhaps needing to be tig-welded on (so it doesn't come off at the track), I assumed the hub itself was sealed, and not rebuildable. However, re-reading what Steven wrote, I'm not sure now what he actually did... whether he disassembled the hub, or just rinsed it out and somehow re-packed it with grease. Maybe Steven (or Rodney) can chime in here.
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:
Despite the cover coming off and the bearing grease being replaced with rocks, dirt, and brake dust, the bearing lasted the rest of the weekend and the drive home, and with the grit removed and fresh grease in it, I'll probably keep it as a backup.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-10-2014).]
Boy, guess I assumed since they were tapered rollers and that Rodney talked about taking one apart, I thought they'd be rebuildable. So that's my new question, can they be taken apart?
I took one apart by putting it in my lathe and turned the rolled over area until it came apart. But once that is done it is junk and can never be put back together again.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I had them made in mainland China. I have told many where I had them made. It is no big secrete. sardonyx247 came in this topic fishing for something to rip on me as he has done occasionally in the past. So I would not answer to him knowing he would probably use it to get a few jabs in. This guy for some reason does not like me and occasionally takes cheap shots at me. Overall this is not (IMO) good for this group. It makes vendors like me not want to be involved on the forum. It also makes vendors like me not want to try to get difficult items made. I've seen more than a few vendors thru the years give up and go away because what they made was not absolute perfection but was fairly nice and a few people were not happy and (loudly) voiced their opinions. So I get defensive and lash back at him. It took a lot to get this accomplished. I did what I did and there it is. If your are worried about my 88 hubs buy the eBearing hubs.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Just so you know, I'll be buying my next set of front hubs from Rodney regardless of where they are made. My current pair are Rodney's last (ball bearing) design and they have performed well through ~10 years of spirited street driving. They now hum under heavy braking so I suspect they are heading toward the recycle heap but considering the roads I've driven (DFW has horrible roads) and the abuse I've put them through I have been very happy with the purchase.
I'm less concerned with where these are made. What I really want are quality parts at a reasonable cost. Yes, I would prefer that they were made in the USA, but we have transferred almost all of our manufacuring jobs overseas. Maybe Rodney will decide to have them tweaked some for the next run of 500, time will tell.
How about a new hub for the 1984-87 front spindle that supports the GM 5x115mm wheel bolt pattern with a bigger hub centric that can utilize bigger W or H body brake rotors?
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
Had one idea today. Might be worth it for those who want to use these in track cars. Maybe: Take the cover off and put in some top shelf gear lube. Maybe find O-rings that fit the cover and press the cover back on. Tack weld if need be. Maybe drill a small hole in the center off the cover and put a rubber patch over it. This would allow for heated air expansion.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Wheel and Tire Considerations The Fiero's suspension design predates engineering consideration for wheels, offsets, tires and tire compounds available today. As with any older vehicle, it is very easy to install wheels and tires which produce suspension loads higher than the vehicle was designed to handle. Not only the front wheel bearings could be damaged; the Fiero's rear wheel hub assemblies are a design which dates back to 1980 and should also be considered carefully.
Concours These units may not be suitable for concours. While the original units produced in 1987-1988 had forgings which were only machined on critical surfaces, these units have been fully machined to current practice.
Racing While racing use is not approved and voids all warranties, these are ball bearing hub units with the same overall construction as the original and so are SCCA legal.
These likely better that OE but likely still have most of OE problems.
quote
Originally posted by Rodney: Had one idea today. Might be worth it for those who want to use these in track cars. Maybe: Take the cover off and put in some top shelf gear lube. Maybe find O-rings that fit the cover and press the cover back on. Tack weld if need be. Maybe drill a small hole in the center off the cover and put a rubber patch over it. This would allow for heated air expansion.
I have used several of Rodney's products and have to say that his stuff is quality. Keep in mind that all iPhones and iPads are made in China!! Not everything made in China is junk and not everything made in the USA is quality!! My $.02
There have been a few write ups on the eBearing hubs. I took one apart to see what was inside. A few others did the same. They use a common double ball bearing assembly available at any bearing supplier in them. The size of the ball bearings in them is about 1/3rd the diameter that of OEM. Very small. Scary small. That is why they do not hold up and certainly will not last long on a track car.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
theogre posted the following in regard to the eBearing '88 Fiero hubs:
quote
Originally posted by theogre: These likely better that OE but likely still have most of OE problems.
The eBearing hubs are not better than OE. The OE bearings worked great. They last for at least a season at the track. The problem is the dwindling supply. I'm down to my last pair. The eBearing hubs are junk. At least one racer experienced failure of the hub assembly in the first session on track. The hub broke off. I wish we could still get OE bearings; they don't have any problems except for the supply.
One of Rodney's tapered roller bearing hubs failed on me during a track weekend because the grease cover came off. It still rolls, but I would only use that failed bearing as a backup for street transit only. The second Rodney bearing lasted a weekend at the track before it developed excessive play. The grease did not come out. This doesn't mean they will have any problems on the street.
I will report on the third new Rodney bearing once I have a chance to inspect it tonight or tomorrow. It has a little less than one full weekend on it.
quote
Originally posted by Rodney: Had one idea today. Might be worth it for those who want to use these in track cars. Maybe: Take the cover off and put in some top shelf gear lube. Maybe find O-rings that fit the cover and press the cover back on. Tack weld if need be. Maybe drill a small hole in the center off the cover and put a rubber patch over it. This would allow for heated air expansion.
What lube is in the bearings as delivered?
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 06-11-2014).]
The hub manufacturer choose the lube. Had someone mentioned that I should have voiced my opinion on the lube choice I could have done that. I'm not sure any other choice would have been a better choice. The company that made them makes automotive bearing hubs. This is all this company makes is wheel bearing hubs. Possibly had I told them some would be used on race cars they could have possibly made them in a way they would be more HD? Maybe and maybe not. The problem is the overall inside diameter. There is only so much room to work with. HD requires a larger diameter most likely.
They also make hubs with round ball bearings. If and when I sell most of my stock I could explore having the next batch made in round bearings. But they may or may not be stronger than the roller bearings. I felt the tapered roller bearing design would be the most durable. I would have to pay a tooling charge again for the forgings to be made for round ball bearings.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I suggested adding some top shelf gear lube because maybe at higher side G forces the grease does not move around the rollers as well as an oil would. I still think the adding of some type of high end gear lube, O ring and the small hole with a rubber cover etc is worth trying. If someone that uses these hubs for track use wants to try that I'll supply a hub N/C for R&D.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Has anyone ever thought of sending an OE bearing to a manufacturer, and asking them to duplicate it exactly? I'm only an old fuddy-duddy, but I think that would be the way to go.
I suggested adding some top shelf gear lube because maybe at higher side G forces the grease does not move around the rollers as well as an oil would. I still think the adding of some type of high end gear lube, O ring and the small hole with a rubber cover etc is worth trying. If someone that uses these hubs for track use wants to try that I'll supply a hub N/C for R&D.
That's where the truth can come out. The most frustrating thing about these cars ('88 models specifically) is that they are a tiny percentage of ANY aftermarket. It gets really expensive to try and do any R&D for such a low-volume part.
That said, it sure seems to me like the best bet would be an attempt at re-creating the stock design. From what I know (my wife made me throw my loose stock bearings out before I could tear them apart) the OEM design incorporated bearing races into the forgings. This would allow for the highest ball diameter and lowest point-loading possible. Also, from what I understand, this is what they did for the current run of tapered rollers, yes? I'd be willing to bet that the failure point is the races being worn down due to insufficient hardening at the factory. That's purely a guess but based on my experience as a mechanical designer it's a lot easier to harden the rollers or balls than it is to get just the races of a large forging hard and perfectly ground as required for a rolling-element bearing. Those are just edumacated guesses on my part though. ;)
Red 5spd Formula Trot, the rollin', fox...
------------------ | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a | >\_/< trotfox at gmail.com \ third alternative."
"I'd be willing to bet that the failure point is the races being worn down due to insufficient hardening at the factory." That was my thought exactly when I first heard of them failing. It seems to me that if this is a reputable manufacturer (which I believe they are) it would be worthwhile for Rodney to send one of the failed bearings to the factory and let them investigate as to the cause of the failures. I would think they would have the expertise in house. If not there must be some business that specializes in such things. I doubt if all automobile manufacters perform everything in-house. As others have suggested the bearing is subjected to much greater stresses than it was originally designed for and the only viable solution may be a bigger bearing, etc. and the whole host of problems adapting it to the 88 Fiero. Other-wise any changes would be just a shot in the dark.
Rodney has come up with '88 front hubs that from all reports so far are perfectly suitable for street use, but they do not hold up under track conditions. The sad truth is that the space available for the hub bearings in the '88 front knuckle is simply inadequate to support the cornering loads that can be generated by modern competition tires. Even ordinary street tires are stickier today than they were in 1988. For now, Rodney's front hubs are probably the best option '88 owners have available to them for a street-only car.
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
The size of the ball bearings in [eBearing hubs] is about 1/3rd the diameter that of OEM. Very small. Scary small. That is why they do not hold up ...
Not necessarily, and neither you nor I will know without doing a full engineering analysis. Ball/roller size is only one variable in a complete bearing design. Consider uncaged needle roller bearings; the rollers in them are small ... maybe even "scary small" ... but they work just fine for their intended applications.
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
The problem is the overall inside diameter. There is only so much room to work with. HD requires a larger diameter most likely.
That's only half of the problem. The othert half is the length of the housing ... which limits the distance between the inboard and outboard bearing sets. The bearing loads while cornering (i.e. due to lateral tire loads) are directly related to that spacing. You couldn't just lengthen the bearing housing, either; you would also have to modify the knuckle to extend the hub bore to properly support a longer bearing.
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
I suggested adding some top shelf gear lube because maybe at higher side G forces the grease does not move around the rollers as well as an oil would.
Probably a bad idea. There are valid reasons that every OEM wheel bearing I know of uses grease for lubrication. The engineers who design such things really do understand them better than we do. Nothing wrong with trying different lube strategies on an experimental basis, though.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-12-2014).]
I'd be willing to bet that the failure point is the races being worn down due to insufficient hardening at the factory.
quote
Originally posted by George P Wood:
That was my thought exactly when I first heard of them failing.
Possibly, but the use of outer races machined into the housing can be problematic. You can only apply so much hardening to the machined races before the housing becomes too brittle and begins to crack under load. Consider also that under extreme loads the housing itself is going to deflect (i.e. flex) slightly, with a resulting distortion in the outer bearing races. The key problem is that the '88 front knuckle simply does not provide enough room to support an adequately sized integral-bearing hub ... at least not adequate for competition loads seen on the track with modern tires.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-12-2014).]
The eBearing hubs are junk. At least one racer experienced failure of the hub assembly in the first session on track. The hub broke off.
If I remember correctly, the failure you describe was a failure in the hub flange rather than in the bearings.
I think it's unfair to characterize any of the readily available '88 front hubs, OEM or aftermarket, as "junk." (I specifically exclude the no-name Chinese hubs that occasionally appear ... and disappear ... on eBay.) They all seem to be adequate for their intended use on a street-driven car, but they all exhibit short service life under track conditions.
I realize it's frustrating for racers, but the central fact is that sticky modern tires are capable of generating loads beyond the design capacity of any '88 front hub cartridge ever offered commercially, OEM or aftermarket. I do not dispute your experience that the OEM bearings may have held up better under track conditions, but I remember that they were failing, too, back when they were the only choice available. Tires were less sticky back then, too.
Has anyone ever thought of sending an OE bearing to a manufacturer, and asking them to duplicate it exactly? I'm only an old fuddy-duddy, but I think that would be the way to go.
Do that and let us know what you find out. The tooling costs and minimum order will make your eyes bug out. Like anything. It can be done but no one would pay that cost and no one would be able to afford to buy them. Or very few. It was worth doing for the 1988 (and they hoped for more years after the 88) Fiero. But for a very low demand item today the cost of off the charts to do just that.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
There have been a few write ups on the eBearing hubs. I took one apart to see what was inside. A few others did the same. They use a common double ball bearing assembly available at any bearing supplier in them. The size of the ball bearings in them is about 1/3rd the diameter that of OEM. Very small. Scary small. That is why they do not hold up and certainly will not last long on a track car.
Interesting. I didn't know that. The eBearing rep that posted here a while back said that they were "made to the same specs" as the OE units... which is obvious bunk now that we've seen them in action. I wonder why he doesn't post here any more?
quote
Originally posted by Rodney: Possibly had I told them some would be used on race cars they could have possibly made them in a way they would be more HD? Maybe and maybe not. The problem is the overall inside diameter. There is only so much room to work with. HD requires a larger diameter most likely.
The tapered roller design IS more durable than a ball bearing design with the same constraints. There's just more contact area in the tapered rollers. OEM's use balls because they give better fuel economy.
The biggest single factor in the load capabilities of the bearings is the *AXIAL* distance between the two rows of bearings. You can make a given bearing much tougher by increasing this distance without increasing the outside diameter of the housing. The only thing yours need to be to handle the stress is deeper.
Something more like these is what the '88 Fieros need for motorsports:
There was another site which use a custom spindle in the stock housing to mount tapered rollers, but for some reason I don't have that in my bookmarks...
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
I suggested adding some top shelf gear lube because maybe at higher side G forces the grease does not move around the rollers as well as an oil would. I still think the adding of some type of high end gear lube, O ring and the small hole with a rubber cover etc is worth trying. If someone that uses these hubs for track use wants to try that I'll supply a hub N/C for R&D.
A real motorsports capable hub would be rebuildable, have O-ring seals, disassembled and reassembled with simple hand-tools, etc.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-13-2014).]
Has anyone ever thought of sending an OE bearing to a manufacturer, and asking them to duplicate it exactly? I'm only an old fuddy-duddy, but I think that would be the way to go.
That's what the eBearing units were supposed to be... but weren't.
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Probably a bad idea. There are valid reasons that every OEM wheel bearing I know of uses grease for lubrication. The engineers who design such things really do understand them better than we do. Nothing wrong with trying different lube strategies on an experimental basis, though.
There are a lot of considerations. Old Mercedes CV joints used gear oil instead of grease, for example.
