If I remember correctly, the failure you describe was a failure in the hub flange rather than in the bearings.
I think it's unfair to characterize any of the readily available '88 front hubs, OEM or aftermarket, as "junk." (I specifically exclude the no-name Chinese hubs that occasionally appear ... and disappear ... on eBay.) They all seem to be adequate for their intended use on a street-driven car, but they all exhibit short service life under track conditions.
I realize it's frustrating for racers, but the central fact is that sticky modern tires are capable of generating loads beyond the design capacity of any '88 front hub cartridge ever offered commercially, OEM or aftermarket. I do not dispute your experience that the OEM bearings may have held up better under track conditions, but I remember that they were failing, too, back when they were the only choice available. Tires were less sticky back then, too.
I'm less concerned with where these are made. What I really want are quality parts at a reasonable cost. Yes, I would prefer that they were made in the USA, but we have transferred almost all of our manufacuring jobs overseas. Maybe Rodney will decide to have them tweaked some for the next run of 500, time will tell.
quote
Originally posted by KY87fierogt:
I have used several of Rodney's products and have to say that his stuff is quality. Keep in mind that all iPhones and iPads are made in China!! Not everything made in China is junk and not everything made in the USA is quality!! My $.02
China can manufacture good products. There is a lot of manufacturing muscle in that country. The problems come out when the ENGINEERING is done to a price-point rather than a use-case. That's why you can $20 hubs that last 500 miles for the rear of the Fiero and common FWD cars.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-13-2014).]
Everything I have bought from Rodney has been top quality. He has also (IMHO) gone out of his way to ship a set of these front hubs to me. I was going to be down in CA and he sent them to me there so I didn't have to pay the super extra postage fees to send them directly to me in Canada. So his customer service is second to none. Plus the amount of work that he put into there bearings make me think I would try them (he tried to improve them vs just making a copy).
As for the bearings themselves - they look like they are decent quality, could careless that they are made in China as I have bought many items from there that has been of good quality (and some not so, but those are few - I have bought way more stuff locally (made in NA) that was of poor quality). I bought these as a spare as I found some OE NOS ones a few years back that I had installed on the car. May never use them, but in 15 years if I may need them and there may not be any available. I don't race the car so even if I had to install these ones I am sure they would be fine.
AT LEAST now there is a choice, (not so when I needed some - was happier than flies in **it when I actually found some since the originals were bad) and the way I look at them is; if you need them because you have bad ones what difference does it really make if they come from China or Mars? At least you are able to repair the car and drive it, without them it would be a pile of junk sitting in the driveway (maybe nice looking, but useless without wheel bearings).
If you want to support a US company that is fine, but there is no need in getting into a pi**ing match about it.
I just received a drawing from the manufacturer. The inner races are separate pieces pressed on to the inner shaft and the outer race is the hub itself. I'll take apart the sample they sent me to see what the inside race looks like and the surface of the outer hub the bearings ride on.
They supplied me with a drawing I need to check and verify their measurements. Once I OK this project they have to make the stamping dies to forge the parts. So it will take some time yet. But it is moving forward.
Did you ever get to do this?
I had forgotten that the outer races were integral with the housing. That may be why Steven had problems on the track. You may want to specify that the hubs use a standard cup/cone pair (e.g. Timken, SKF). That way you can be assured of the heat treatment of the races and rollers.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-13-2014).]
Originally posted by Will: You may want to specify that the hubs use a standard cup/cone pair (e.g. Timken, SKF). That way you can be assured of the heat treatment of the races and rollers.
I have to guess there is no room to do that. Doing that requires them to remove a large amount of steel to fit in the outer races weakening the hub significantly. I'm guessing if they could have they would have. Way easier than hardening the integral outer races and grinding them. I did talk about that as they were making the drawings (a long long time ago). I wanted separate races all around but that was not possible. I'm not sure if I saved any of that info.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I have to guess there is no room to do that. Doing that requires them to remove a large amount of steel to fit in the outer races weakening the hub significantly. I'm guessing if they could have they would have. Way easier than hardening the integral outer races and grinding them. I did talk about that as they were making the drawings (a long long time ago). I wanted separate races all around but that was not possible. I'm not sure if I saved any of that info.
Ahh... Ok.
Have you looked into having new knuckles cast that could accept stronger bearings? (e.g. VW rear units which still have the 5x100 pattern)
Originally posted by Will: Have you looked into having new knuckles cast that could accept stronger bearings? (e.g. VW rear units which still have the 5x100 pattern)
For a casting tool made of steel that would be a six-figure proposition. If it were lost-foam sand casting, the quality of the casting would be questionable for the expected usage of the part and would still require a fair amount of finish machining
Certain resins can be used to cast aluminum. There's no reason a well-engineered aluminum casting (or billet!) couldn't be used to make a Fiero knuckle. Street Dreams already did it for the early cars.
I'd be reasonably interested in an aluminum knuckle that seated Camaro spindle & bearings but sadly there's no way I'll be able to afford anything like that any time soon.
I keep thinking there ought to be a way to create a hub that houses a set of races located inward of the ball joints. In my head the spindle would be attached to a plate that mounts the studs and disk at the appropriate distance for the caliper and wheel to line up. Doing so would allow wider placement of the bearing races as there's not much going on behind the current hub unit and the rollers would be stronger to begin with. Granted, we'd still likely be looking at a hardened housing with ground-in races.
Hey, I can throw around somebody else's money alllll day long though! ;D
Certain resins can be used to cast aluminum. There's no reason a well-engineered aluminum casting (or billet!) couldn't be used to make a Fiero knuckle. Street Dreams already did it for the early cars.
I'm not arguing that knuckles cannot be made as aluminum castings. Most suspension components on modern cars (knuckles, upper and lower A-arms) are cast aluminum pieces.
I was just making the point that to attempt to create new knuckles for the Fiero that are Al castings would easily be a six figure investment before you ever got parts in your hands. For components that are structurally critical, you would not want to use gravity fed sand casting, as the resultant parts would never be strong enough due to porosity that cannot be eliminated in sand casting operations. For a suspension component you would need to use high pressure die casting in a steel tool at minimum. But to make a truly repeatable part of high quality you would have to go a step further to pressure-vacuum casting. The cost would be very hard to justify for the ever shrinking and incredibly cheap Fiero market.
I am a mechanical designer by trade and if I ever were to win a lottery, one thing on my bucket list that I would do is to design and build some better suspension components for the Fiero. I would likely have the Fiero knuckles from both suspension generations laser scanned. I would also get some Corvette knuckles laser scanned and then overlay them in CAD to see how to combine the mounting points of the Fiero knuckles with the hub/bearing mounting and brake caliper mounting from the Corvette knuckle. Then you could use the bearing units from the Corvette (much more durable for racing) as well as upgrade the brake system to some larger Corvette brakes. The replacement parts for a Corvette would be available for many more years than Fiero parts will be. Plus think of how many more wheel options would be available for a Corvette hub. Any parts I would produce would be CNC machined from billet aluminum. It would be very expensive, but it is something I would love to do for my car.
Holy Crap Will, do you know how long that'd take? Machinists get paid by the hour and setup takes time. As an amateur machinist let me tell you that what you propose is no easy feat!
Now, that said.... does anyone have a 3D model of the part? I want to run some stress analysis on it using different materials. ;D No, I'm not going to take my Formula apart just to model up the casting. However, if someone wants to lend me a known good casting I'd be happy to create a dimensional model (by hand, no 3D scanner here yet) from it!
Red 5spd Formula Trot, the designeristic, fox... (I've got a copy of SolidWorks and I'm not afraid to use it!)
Not too pricey but for an unemployed man, currently out of the ballpark. Some day I will need parts for my saturn SC and will start watching the JY's for busted GM Miata-clones. ;]
Originally posted by Steven Snyder: I will report on the third new Rodney bearing once I have a chance to inspect it tonight or tomorrow. It has a little less than one full weekend on it.
I forgot to report on this. The third bearing has enough play in it that I don't trust it for track use anymore. I used it for 120 street miles, and about 65 miles on track, with 200 treadwear 215/45/17 tires. Some of the grease has leaked out from the front seal, and a bit from the rear cap which doesn't have any kind of sealing compound on it like the OE bearing did. With the grease leaking out of the front seal, I imagine the grease is not appropriate for high-temperature use. I haven't seen any leak out from the OE bearings. That doesn't mean better grease would stop the bearing from failing, but it's a weak point at least.
Unfortunately, I can't afford to spend $300 per weekend on new bearings, and I only have two OE front bearings left... so it's time to start designing some new knuckles for my track car..
If further development might occur on these bearings I would happily test new ones as well as provide my worn out bearings for post-mortem analysis.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 10-01-2014).]
Could an axle spindle with a flange be created to bolt to the carrier and then mount a turned early rotor hub/bearing set? Been thinking about this approach for a while but haven't bench tested anything yet.
Could an axle spindle with a flange be created to bolt to the carrier and then mount a turned early rotor hub/bearing set? Been thinking about this approach for a while but haven't bench tested anything yet.
Yes, but you will end up with a very high flange offset from the steering axis.
I was just made aware that this thread had been going on. I last looked in well over a year ago. Let me cross post my comments made under the Building our Lemons/Chumpcar thread.
"I cannot really say why Steven has had such a different experience. I know he runs on Buttonwillow, so I assume that's where he put in his track time. The back curve that enters onto the drag-strip is very long and very fast and likely puts the longest sustained strain on the suspension. Looking at the dates, the earliest on track experience we had was likely at Sonoma/Sears Point. We only put in a handful of laps before melting down the engine. So that wasn't a real test but did accrue miles. Next we hit Buttonwillow with the extremely high ambient temps. It would take some time to dig out our lap count, but we had to put in a couple hundred miles over two days. We ran a couple test days on the Reno-Fernley track which I think placed more of a load than Buttonwillow onto the bearings. Not as sustained, however. The car then ran ThunderHill, Sears Point, Miller Motorsport Park and the last event was at Thunder Hill once again. That's gotta account for a decades worth of auto-cross competition. Other than the lost cover (I suspect we were the first or second guys to report that) there has been no problem on the front. There was some very slight play from the start as was expected. But I don't see that it has increased at all.
Three rear bearings have gone away. Two of which were new. At Miller Motorsport, the driver first commented that he thought the problem was with a front bearing. So they were looked at very closely before declaring them good. The problem turned out to be in the rear."
A bit later I added
"Just did the search and math, we ran 3,562.65 documented racing miles plus an unknown number of miles at local track test days and autocross events. And several miles of relatively slow but likely faster than street speeds on warm up laps. The bearings are still running strong.
All laps on 200 treadwear rated , 225 section width tires."
I've been looking at this and also talking to the manufacturer of my hubs and others that work with hubs. I've sold maybe 50 hubs now. One guy uses them on a slalom car and has had no problems other than the covers coming off. He bought 4 but has only used the first 2.
I had one guy that had 2 bad ones in a row. He uses his 88 as a daily driver. The third hub has now lasted long term.
In talking to the manufacturer and others in the hub trade I have found some information. I was worried most all the 500 hubs I had made would not last long term. I'm starting to think if they last a few thousand miles they then last long term. If a hub is going to fail quickly it will fail in the first thousand or so miles.
One person who works with hubs told me they have to be made very precisely. If the tolerance is off just slightly they will not last long term. So maybe a certain amount of the hubs I had made will fail. Hopefully the bulk of them do last long term.
One idea I also have is to take the covers off and add a bit of gear oil. That may help lubricate the rollers better than just the grease. Tapered bearings with grease need some looseness so the grease flows around the rollers. Tapered bearing in gear oil need no looseness. Then seal the cover on with bearing grade Locktite.
Only time will tell on these.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I've been looking at this and also talking to the manufacturer of my hubs and others that work with hubs. I've sold maybe 50 hubs now. One guy uses them on a slalom car and has had no problems other than the covers coming off. He bought 4 but has only used the first 2.
I had one guy that had 2 bad ones in a row. He uses his 88 as a daily driver. The third hub has now lasted long term.
I just now saw Don's post and this one. I forgot to check back here when you had sent me the PM about the gear oil lubricated bearings.
I wonder if the two that failed on me without the covers coming off were due to manufacturing defects then? Did you receive the 2 bad ones back so failure analysis could be conducted? I think I saved both of mine.. maybe there is something they have in common. The only trick will be getting a "long lasting" bearing sent back to be cut up for comparison...
quote
Originally posted by DonP:
I was just made aware that this thread had been going on. I last looked in well over a year ago. Let me cross post my comments made under the Building our Lemons/Chumpcar thread.
"I cannot really say why Steven has had such a different experience. I know he runs on Buttonwillow, so I assume that's where he put in his track time. The back curve that enters onto the drag-strip is very long and very fast and likely puts the longest sustained strain on the suspension. Looking at the dates, the earliest on track experience we had was likely at Sonoma/Sears Point. We only put in a handful of laps before melting down the engine. So that wasn't a real test but did accrue miles. Next we hit Buttonwillow with the extremely high ambient temps. It would take some time to dig out our lap count, but we had to put in a couple hundred miles over two days. We ran a couple test days on the Reno-Fernley track which I think placed more of a load than Buttonwillow onto the bearings. Not as sustained, however. The car then ran ThunderHill, Sears Point, Miller Motorsport Park and the last event was at Thunder Hill once again. That's gotta account for a decades worth of auto-cross competition. Other than the lost cover (I suspect we were the first or second guys to report that) there has been no problem on the front. There was some very slight play from the start as was expected. But I don't see that it has increased at all.
Three rear bearings have gone away. Two of which were new. At Miller Motorsport, the driver first commented that he thought the problem was with a front bearing. So they were looked at very closely before declaring them good. The problem turned out to be in the rear."
A bit later I added
"Just did the search and math, we ran 3,562.65 documented racing miles plus an unknown number of miles at local track test days and autocross events. And several miles of relatively slow but likely faster than street speeds on warm up laps. The bearings are still running strong.
All laps on 200 treadwear rated , 225 section width tires."
Just my data point.
Very interesting Don! How much weight is on the front axle on your car? How much does the car weigh overall?
What brakes are you running (pads, rotors, and calipers), and how hot do they get?
What kind of lap times were you running at Buttonwillow?
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-05-2015).]
I just sent out 2 to a guy that drives his 88 daily. I added some Mobile One HD gear oil to them. He had 2 that did last several thousand miles but stated to get noisy. So time will tell how these that I added the Mobile One HD gear oil to and used locktite to seal the covers on. It might take till spring/summer to see how they are doing at how many miles etc.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Just started reading up on this issue and it's very interesting.
Does the pre-88 suspension design have the same problems? The front is obviously a completely different setup - does it handle track stresses better than the 88 design?
Likewise, are there high failure rates in the rear hub assembly in the pre-88 design?
I'm just starting to get into autocrossing with my 86 and it would be great information to have before buying track tires. Maybe i'd be better off with greasy ones.
masospaghetti, I have been autocrossing my 88 Formula and an 86 SE ( my son's car) for the last 16 years. The rear bearings are the same for all years and only the original units were worth running. I had an original fail at a track day last season at Pocono Raceway due to an of track excursion in the gravel. prior to that I've had 2 others fail over the years but all in all not a bad rap. The pre 88 front bearings are a lot different than the 88. The early ones are a tapered roller bearing and even though they are small have held up great. The 88 units are a sealed unit similar to the rear bearings and are not adjustable. I had a contact for used OEM front/rear units but that has dried up. Have only 2 rear and 2 front left. Tried the Fiero Store unit right after they were introduced but they failed in short order. Was hoping Rodney's units were going to solve the problem but it looks like they are not up to the task for racing. I will tell you that running my 2 Fieros for all these years has been a lot of fun and a constant learning and re-inventing experience.
Originally posted by masospaghetti: Just started reading up on this issue and it's very interesting.
Does the pre-88 suspension design have the same problems? The front is obviously a completely different setup - does it handle track stresses better than the 88 design?
Likewise, are there high failure rates in the rear hub assembly in the pre-88 design?
I'm just starting to get into autocrossing with my 86 and it would be great information to have before buying track tires. Maybe i'd be better off with greasy ones.
The rear hub/bearing assemblies are the same for all years the Fiero was produced. The original GM parts work at the track, but are no longer available new. None of the aftermarket ones are safe to use on the track, as evidenced by numerous hub flange failures with all brands of Fiero rear bearing assemblies including Timken. Some people have upgraded to J-body front bearings in the rear of '88 Fieros by boring out the rear knuckles to accept the J-body bearings and facing the knuckles to correct the flange offset. The current production AC Delco 20-25K is the OE bearing for the J-body and should be the safest to use. For '84-'87 there are numerous other rear bearing upgrades, such as replacing the rear uprights with Pontiac 6000 parts that have a larger bearing (see this thread for example).
The front is completely different and there is no comparison. I haven't heard of failures with front bearings on the '84-'87 cars but I have never owned one and don't read much about them.
Best to start a new post about '84-'87 bearing upgrades / track durability if you want to hear some real experiences. This thread is only really relevant to people interested in '88 front bearings.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-05-2015).]
Very interesting Don! How much weight is on the front axle on your car? How much does the car weigh overall?
What brakes are you running (pads, rotors, and calipers), and how hot do they get?
What kind of lap times were you running at Buttonwillow?
Steven, our car scaled out at 2587 lbs, with 1098 of that on the front end.
We've been running the Wagner thermoquiet pads on the stock rotors and calipers. I don't think they ever get hot enough to be concerned about, particularly on the fairly open tracks like Buttonwillow.
I don't have our lap times at hand, but I recall that we were about 5 seconds slower than the times you posted in the video.
I'm making them like OEM. The sample they sent me which I'm thinking is maybe a full size truck bearing is also short. Any longer and my ball joint tool is no longer useful as the bearing would be over the ball joint shafts. I'm staying with the OEM size.
Since it seems that these bearings, while better than other aftermarket units, are still not holding up to racetrack use - is there a possibility to making the bearing cartridges longer to reduce the loading on the bearings themselves (like Will suggested)?
It seems like a minor tradeoff to have slightly more labor to change the lower ball joint.
Just stickin' my nose in; Before I decided to convert my '85 SE-V6 to 88 front and rear I took a long hard look at the Solstice uprights- it looked doable, with custom A-arms....But I never actually took all the measurements and drew it out. I have the 88 rear installed but haven't had the time to do the front. I was wondering if it would be possible to just do a whole new one-piece spindle like the 84-87 but for the 88? Just use the seperate bearings.....of course, make a new hub to go with it- Hopefully eliminating the offset problem. And no, I don't know how much it would cost.
Since it seems that these bearings, while better than other aftermarket units, are still not holding up to racetrack use .
I need to see some testing with some hubs that I have added some of the Mobile One gear oil to. So I am looking for some owners that race an 88 Fiero and are willing to try a few of these hubs to see if adding the gear oil helps. So I'm looking for some that race an 88. I will send these R&D units out N/C to some if they are willing to try them on track cars.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Since it seems that these bearings, while better than other aftermarket units, are still not holding up to racetrack use - is there a possibility to making the bearing cartridges longer to reduce the loading on the bearings themselves (like Will suggested)? .
It is very possible. But: I have like 450+ hubs on hand. The tooling charge to make this new design hub would be huge. I'm not sure if I would be willing for such a small market.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Since it seems that these bearings, while better than other aftermarket units, are still not holding up to racetrack use - is there a possibility to making the bearing cartridges longer to reduce the loading on the bearings themselves (like Will suggested)
The design I would look at would be basically a reverse of the 84-87. The hex nut would be inside the swing arm. It would use standard type bearings like the 84-87. Both the inner and outer races would be replaceable.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
It is very possible. But: I have like 450+ hubs on hand. The tooling charge to make this new design hub would be huge. I'm not sure if I would be willing for such a small market.
I can definitely understand that. Based on what users are saying though, I imagine a race-ready cartridge could command a pretty good price premium.
quote
The design I would look at would be basically a reverse of the 84-87. The hex nut would be inside the swing arm. It would use standard type bearings like the 84-87. Both the inner and outer races would be replaceable.
I'm assuming this would be easier to design and build than a longer sealed cartridge?
https://mjmracing.shutterfly.com/ This is a modification to the 4th gen F-body and 4th gen Corvette hubs to make them rebuildable using high quality separate bearing races.
Steven, our car scaled out at 2587 lbs, with 1098 of that on the front end.
We've been running the Wagner thermoquiet pads on the stock rotors and calipers. I don't think they ever get hot enough to be concerned about, particularly on the fairly open tracks like Buttonwillow.
I don't have our lap times at hand, but I recall that we were about 5 seconds slower than the times you posted in the video.
Don
Thanks for sharing the detailed info, Don! Knocking off those last 5 seconds from my time was the difference between vaporizing a set of Porterfield R4-S brake pads in one session vs. running them all weekend. My hubs are probably getting much much hotter than yours are now and mine were before last year. Hard to say how much more I'm loading them in the corners, if any. We are running similar tires though I do have ~200 lbs more weight in the car.
I've been looking at this and also talking to the manufacturer of my hubs and others that work with hubs. I've sold maybe 50 hubs now. One guy uses them on a slalom car and has had no problems other than the covers coming off. He bought 4 but has only used the first 2.
I had one guy that had 2 bad ones in a row. He uses his 88 as a daily driver. The third hub has now lasted long term.
In talking to the manufacturer and others in the hub trade I have found some information. I was worried most all the 500 hubs I had made would not last long term. I'm starting to think if they last a few thousand miles they then last long term. If a hub is going to fail quickly it will fail in the first thousand or so miles.
One person who works with hubs told me they have to be made very precisely. If the tolerance is off just slightly they will not last long term. So maybe a certain amount of the hubs I had made will fail. Hopefully the bulk of them do last long term.
One idea I also have is to take the covers off and add a bit of gear oil. That may help lubricate the rollers better than just the grease. Tapered bearings with grease need some looseness so the grease flows around the rollers. Tapered bearing in gear oil need no looseness. Then seal the cover on with bearing grade Locktite.
Only time will tell on these.
Rodney, that's valuable information. I understand why this project is / was to take. For those that race, its a whole new ball game. Time will tell. If you intend to change design this could be challenging. With my experience in bearings, they are a fragile component to any application. Technically, if you drop a bearing of the floor, the bearing is scrap. Many don't know this, or will overlook this as non-sense believe it or not.
Its like the gentleman from E-bearing say in his thread, certain bearings for certain applications require certain grease with additives, etc... As he stated, I don't understand why he claims that the original 88 bearings are the same as his hubs are made. (E-bearing) Size, demensions, bearing diameter, etc. I can't claim that, I never seen or dismantled the e-bearing brand. I may in the future take apart one of my front hub bearings on one of my 88GTs. When I turn the hub it has a dry sound and feel once rotated.
I'm surprised that nobody bought a batch of the GM original bearings years ago. There must be a batch on the shelves somewhere in the country like the getrag input shaft bearing ordeal we went through 2-3 years ago. There hard to find.
I purchased a set of Rodney’s new bearings a couple years ago. I’ve had no issues, but haven’t put more than a few thousand miles of moderate driving on them.
I understand why this project is / was to take. For those that race, its a whole new ball game. Time will tell.
