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Rear Lateral Link Upgrade for 88's - Rod End / Heim Joints by fieroguru
Started on: 01-30-2012 07:42 PM
Replies: 79 (5265 views)
Last post by: Blacktree on 03-22-2016 11:42 AM
fieroguru
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Report this Post01-30-2012 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One of the suspension/handling upgrades for my 88 Fiero is to replace the poly bushing lateral links with some rod end lateral links. This will eliminate any lateral deflection and provide a more consistent toe setting (important for good tire wear for the width of tires I plan to run). Several vendors already sell this upgrade, but I wanted to see if I could build a set using available off the shelf components (no custom spacers required).

The key to this conversion is the QA1 rod end that essentially has a built in spacer shaft. This is a teflon lined, chromoly, rod end that is rated for 24,000 lbs. The hole is 1/2" and it nearly fills the length of the mounting pocket on the cradle.


A test fit showed that finding a couple of washers the proper thickness could close up the gap quite well. In this pic, the washers are the washers from the lateral link bolts, but they are slightly too thin.


To put the lateral link assemblies together, you need the rod ends, swaged tubes, 5/8" jam nuts, and some spacers to close the gaps in the mounting pockets on the cradle.



Due to manufacturing tolerances, you may need to slightly widen the lateral link pocket. I used a wheel bearing bolt and 2 nuts. Thread the bolt into the nuts and install the closed end of the wrench as shown. Once the nut it tight to the head end of the bolt, tighten the other one to push the wall out slightly:



Then install the links with the thick washers on both sides:



The rear pocket is a little short to allow the rod end to stand up. You could use a pry bar to push the top of the pocket up, or just leave the rod end at an angle:



The links mount to the upright with thick washers on both sides of the rod ends:




Here is a list of part #'s, quantities and prices:
code:

Part mfg. Part # Qty Price Total
QA1 Rod Ends – ½” hole, 5/8-18 thread PCYMR8-10T 4 $15.95 $63.80
QA1 Rod Ends – ½” hole, 5/8-18 thread PCYML8-10T 4 $14.95 $59.80
Afco Swaged steel tube 5/8-18 L/R, ¾” diam, 8” length 36178 2 $9.88 $19.76
Afco Swaged steel tube 5/8-18 L/R, ¾” diam, 9” length 36179 2 $12.77 $25.54
Thin 5/8-18 LH Grade 5 zinc coated nuts (10 pack) 99612A159 1 $7.38 $7.39
Thin 5/8-18 RH Grade 5 zinc coated nuts (25 pack) 99612A535 1 $6.61 $6.61
M12 thick washer, black oxide, 4.5-5.4mm (5 pack) 9804A107 4 $6.45 $25.80

Total (not including Shipping/Handling) $208.70




The QA1 rod ends and Afco tubes were purchased from Summit Racing - it did take about 1 month for the QA1 rod ends to arrive (they were back ordered at the time).
The rest of the nuts/bolts/washers came from McMasterCarr.

As you can see this project will set you back about $205 + shipping which is less than most vendors are charging for this upgrade. You might be able to save some $$ on the jam nuts and spacers, but I wanted the nuts grade 5 and zinc coated and a single thick washer on both sides.

I am sure these components are not DOT approved, so this should be considered for off-road use only (and no, I will not be selling these kits).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-22-2013).]

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Jefrysuko
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Report this Post01-30-2012 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Holy Cow! That's cheap!

Great Job as always! I will definitely be ordering a set to use with your tubular cradle.
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Report this Post01-30-2012 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PappySend a Private Message to PappyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did something similar when I split my 34 ford coupe's wishbone way back in the 70s - It provided a great improvement in handling.

Thanks for all your leg work and sharing that info to boot
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Report this Post01-30-2012 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ricreatrSend a Private Message to ricreatrEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
darkhorizon and i were just talking about this. i have the heims and it makes a very nice improvement to the feel of the suspension, but what do you expect the life to be?
i will not use them anymore on the street just because they wear out so quickly. maybe 5000 miles or so. maybe i just cheaped out on quality ends? (maybe i am just cheaping out now?)
do you have boots for yours? those helped some.
(thanks for the part numbers!)

[This message has been edited by ricreatr (edited 01-30-2012).]

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Report this Post01-30-2012 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ricreatr:

I have the heims and it makes a very nice improvement to the feel of the suspension...


As someone with experience then, can you comment on ride noise, vibration, harshness? On an '88 chassis, if you do this mod there is nothing between the road and the cabin to absorb any NVH. Seems to me this would be fine for those wanting to trade off some comfort for all out handling, but maybe not for everyone. What are your impressions?
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Report this Post01-30-2012 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


As someone with experience then, can you comment on ride noise, vibration, harshness? On an '88 chassis, if you do this mod there is nothing between the road and the cabin to absorb any NVH. Seems to me this would be fine for those wanting to trade off some comfort for all out handling, but maybe not for everyone. What are your impressions?


Since this is just the lateral links there shouldn't be much if any change in NVH while driving in a straight line. If the NVH is too much to handle just reduce the steering input
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Report this Post01-30-2012 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As usually nice work....For the price I might give this a try....How r u running the last link?
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Report this Post01-30-2012 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

As usually nice work....For the price I might give this a try....How r u running the last link?


I am keeping rubber bushings in the trailing link, that is the key to a near stock ride, but improved lateral control.
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Report this Post01-30-2012 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fieroguru

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Member since Aug 2003
 
quote
Originally posted by ricreatr:

darkhorizon and i were just talking about this. i have the heims and it makes a very nice improvement to the feel of the suspension, but what do you expect the life to be?
i will not use them anymore on the street just because they wear out so quickly. maybe 5000 miles or so. maybe i just cheaped out on quality ends? (maybe i am just cheaping out now?)
do you have boots for yours? those helped some.
(thanks for the part numbers!)



The teflon lined rod ends are supposed to be good for 2-3 years... probably all depends on what conditions you drive them in. I do not think the seals would work on the extended sleeve portion, but who knows. Might be able to use some poly ball joint/tie rod sleeves to seal up the area.
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Report this Post01-30-2012 10:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GraterFangSend a Private Message to GraterFangEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the always interesting posts

[This message has been edited by GraterFang (edited 01-30-2012).]

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Report this Post01-31-2012 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have already done this on an 88. They sell a rod end spacer that is tapered and they fit exact
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Report this Post01-31-2012 04:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nicely done, except I think you should use all grade 8 hardware.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts
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Report this Post01-31-2012 10:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

All grade 8 bolts, washers and true rod end spacers
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Report this Post01-31-2012 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:

Since this is just the lateral links there shouldn't be much if any change in NVH while driving in a straight line.


Perhaps, but I believe that some of the engine/transmission vibrations would be transferred from the axle shafts to the hub bearing, hub, lateral links, cradle, and then to the chassis.
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Report this Post01-31-2012 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Greenmeansgo:

I have already done this on an 88. They sell a rod end spacer that is tapered and they fit exact


I would be curious to see your parts list and total cost for the conversion.
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Report this Post01-31-2012 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Man... where was this last year. I spent over $600 buying the HT Motorsports set up. I do like what I got, but it would seem that I could have dont it cheaper this way. Oh, well, thats why we all follow the "guru" threads so we can learn how to do this stuff to our cars.

Another great thread by Fieroguru.

Rob

------------------


88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
Build Thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083204.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0

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Report this Post01-31-2012 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I would be curious to see your parts list and total cost for the conversion.


I have about $250 in it as well, the swagged tubes were $18 each x6
My rodends are teflon some 1/2" some 5/8" at $14 each x12
spacers were $2 each x24
I used all grade 8 bolts which needed only a slight reaming thru the holes to fit
All from smileys racing
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Report this Post01-31-2012 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Greenmeansgo

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I also made my rear 3" wider on each side so stock would be cheaper
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Report this Post01-31-2012 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jwrapeSend a Private Message to jwrapeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I definately like this idea. Makes me wonder if I could reduce my width in the rear a little to be able to fit a wider wheel back there. Maybe use different axles to accomplish another inch or onch and a half of fender clearance.

------------------
Car Thread:
86 GT
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/085541.html

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Report this Post01-31-2012 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jwrape:

I definately like this idea. Makes me wonder if I could reduce my width in the rear a little to be able to fit a wider wheel back there. Maybe use different axles to accomplish another inch or onch and a half of fender clearance.



That is what I am doing. This thread has some measurements between the back side of the strut and the frame rail:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120740.html
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Report this Post02-01-2012 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ricreatrSend a Private Message to ricreatrEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


can you comment on ride noise, vibration, harshness? ?


blooze, it has been a while, and of course my comparison was to worn rubber bushings, but i noticed the rear tracked much better in corners and under accel (about 250hp). i did not notice any harshness from the modification at all. i have 17" wheels and 45 series tires.

we need to convince guru to apply these all these mods to a mule fiero one at a time, to give experience with each one!!! (ill do the wrenching!)
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Report this Post02-01-2012 09:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ricreatr:

we need to convince guru to apply these all these mods to a mule fiero one at a time, to give experience with each one!!! (ill do the wrenching!)


That is the plan... my 88 that is getting the LS4/F40 swap ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html ) is also getting:
13" rotor upgrade: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087368.html
Front/rear adjustable coil overs: Front build thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120718.html
Conversion to 4 3/4" bolt pattern front/rear: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120747.html
Corvette wheels (17x8.5 and 18 x 10.5)
Rod End Lateral links - this thread
Lateral link relocation at upright: thread coming soon
Aluminum bushings for sway bar mounts: thread coming soon
Zero lash sway bar links: thread coming soon

And probably a few more before it is done... Unfortunately, all these are happening together, so it will be difficult to speak to the benefit of each individual upgrade.
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Report this Post02-01-2012 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nebiros88Click Here to visit Nebiros88's HomePageSend a Private Message to Nebiros88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've considered something like this if I end up keeping my fiero and doing an 88 cradle swap

Although I'm leaning more towards using ends like this
http://www.ballisticfabrica...ic-Joint_p_1636.html
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Report this Post02-01-2012 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for V8IndyProjectSend a Private Message to V8IndyProjectEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Awesome write up. Its going on my to-do list. I thought all the stock lateral links were the same length, but I see that you have two 8 inch and two 9 inch. Am I wrong about that, are the rear stock links longer?
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Report this Post02-01-2012 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, they're different lengths. The rear link measures 324 mm (plus or minus) eye-to-eye, and the front adjustable link measures 297 mm (plus or minus) eye-to-eye.
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Report this Post02-02-2012 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The key to this conversion is the QA1 rod end that essentially has a built in spacer shaft. This is a teflon lined, chromoly, rod end that is rated for 24,000 lbs. The hole is 1/2" and it nearly fills the length of the mounting pocket on the cradle.


A test fit showed that finding a couple of washers the proper thickness could close up the gap quite well. In this pic, the washers are the washers from the lateral link bolts, but they are slightly too thin.




I built rod-end links for my Formula, but I didn't know about these parts. I used 5/8" rod ends and had to turn shouldered spacers that would both fit the rod ends into the pockets on the cradle as well as adapt them down to the 12mm pivot bolts. Obviously that's a lot more labor intensive than this way.

I'm curious to know what the service life of "unbooted" rod ends is. I have Pro-Werks boots on my rod ends, but they won't work on the ones you found.
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Report this Post02-02-2012 08:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


As someone with experience then, can you comment on ride noise, vibration, harshness? On an '88 chassis, if you do this mod there is nothing between the road and the cabin to absorb any NVH. Seems to me this would be fine for those wanting to trade off some comfort for all out handling, but maybe not for everyone. What are your impressions?


Very small increase in NVH, if any at all. Most of the compliance of the car's ride comes from the trailing arm bushings. The stock rubber bushings in the lateral links obviously don't give much cushion, while the stock trailing arm bushings are much larger.
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Report this Post02-02-2012 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by Greenmeansgo:

I have already done this on an 88. They sell a rod end spacer that is tapered and they fit exact


 
quote
Originally posted by Greenmeansgo:

spacers were $2 each x24
All from smileys racing


Do you mind posting a link to the product page?
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Report this Post02-02-2012 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'm curious to know what the service life of "unbooted" rod ends is. I have Pro-Werks boots on my rod ends, but they won't work on the ones you found.


I am curious too. I might just leave them exposed to the elements to see how long they last. If the last 2 years before needing replacement, then I will probably just leave them exposed going forward. I could probably cut down some poly tie rod end cups and use them as seals, but not sure if it is worth the effort. This car will be a fair weather only car, but it will sit outside year round.
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Report this Post02-02-2012 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for V8IndyProjectSend a Private Message to V8IndyProjectEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could you tell me how wide your rod ends are? I'm looking at doing a similar setup with different components and want to know if these will fit with a couple washers like yours do.
Thanks
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Report this Post02-02-2012 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8IndyProject:

Could you tell me how wide your rod ends are? I'm looking at doing a similar setup with different components and want to know if these will fit with a couple washers like yours do.
Thanks


The inside target width for the cradle mount pocket is 1.60". The rod ends I used are 1.25" wide.
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Report this Post02-02-2012 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its a local store to me so I bought in store but the website is Smileysracing.com
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Report this Post02-03-2012 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I already looked there and didn't find "rod end spacers".

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-03-2012).]

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Report this Post02-03-2012 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GreenmeansgoSend a Private Message to GreenmeansgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
call them
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Report this Post02-03-2012 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I already looked there and didn't find "rod end spacers".



Jegs sells some. They have then with a 1/2" ID and an overall length of 1/4" and 1/2"... but not sure how difficult it would be to find a rod end about .600" wide. As I looked into my solution, I didn't want to have to pull the mount box inward (making it difficult to return to the stock lateral links).
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+...s/555/64201/10002/-1
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Report this Post02-03-2012 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for V8IndyProjectSend a Private Message to V8IndyProjectEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ballisticfabrication.com has good stuff too. The setup I'm thinking of doing will use a 5/8" rod end with two 5/8" to 1/2" high misalignment spacers. The width of the rod end with the two spacers is 1.5". I'm thinking I should be able to shim it to fit with one or two thin washers. Then I plan to get a 5/8" tube adapter to weld in to make my own links.
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Report this Post02-03-2012 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Greenmeansgo:

call them


[minor rant]
Since you know what you bought, I figured it would be a lot easier for you to spend 30 seconds on the site to find your part...
You could also type up the part number from your invoice...

I can imagine how the conversation would go if I called them and said "This guy on the internet said I should call you about rod end spacers, but I don't know what they look like and don't have a part number."

I've done my share of part number posting on this forum... it's not hard.
[/minor rant]

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Jegs sells some. They have then with a 1/2" ID and an overall length of 1/4" and 1/2"... but not sure how difficult it would be to find a rod end about .600" wide. As I looked into my solution, I didn't want to have to pull the mount box inward (making it difficult to return to the stock lateral links).
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+...s/555/64201/10002/-1


McMaster 60745K261 shows a 1/2" rod end that's 5/8" across the flats... but I don't think I'd want to use a joint that small in this application. Although the 1/2" rod end is only rated 10% lower than the 5/8"...

Also, a big part of the need for spacers is for concentricity of bigger rod ends around smaller bolts... I have 5/8" rod ends and 12mm bolts, but the spacers I made keep the rod ends centered on the bolts. Any off-the-shelf spacer would have to do something similar.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-03-2012).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-03-2012 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Also, a big part of the need for spacers is for concentricity of bigger rod ends around smaller bolts... I have 5/8" rod ends and 12mm bolts, but the spacers I made keep the rod ends centered on the bolts. Any off-the-shelf spacer would have to do something similar.



That's the main reason I stuck with the 1/2" rod ends (thread size on the end is 5/8-18 but the hole in the ball is 1/2"). I could have machined the needed spacers/shims for a larger rod end, but wanted to keep it simple enough that the combo could be replicated by others.
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sspeedstreet
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Report this Post02-03-2012 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sspeedstreetSend a Private Message to sspeedstreetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I am keeping rubber bushings in the trailing link, that is the key to a near stock ride, but improved lateral control.


That was my plan as well, but I ended up replacing the trailing link bushings with poly. Honestly, I couldn't tell any difference in harshness or noise. It does make the car easier to control when the back end starts to come around, tho (auto-crossing).

[This message has been edited by sspeedstreet (edited 02-03-2012).]

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raccoons
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Report this Post02-25-2012 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for raccoonsSend a Private Message to raccoonsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm curious, fieroguru, if the "high misalignment" feature of those rod ends was a consideration you made in choosing them. I ask, because I was playing with some rod ends earlier today (non-high-misalignment), and they have a fairly high range of motion in them (around 30 degrees). I would think that's plenty for the rear suspension. Or did you recommend them only because of the built-in spacer?
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