I'm curious, fieroguru, if the "high misalignment" feature of those rod ends was a consideration you made in choosing them. I ask, because I was playing with some rod ends earlier today (non-high-misalignment), and they have a fairly high range of motion in them (around 30 degrees). I would think that's plenty for the rear suspension. Or did you recommend them only because of the built-in spacer?
The built in spacer (or the overall width) was the deciding criteria. This application does not need the additional misalignment.
Cool. Hopefully they will not be on backorder as long as my first set.
One thing it looks like I forgot to fix in this thread (I fixed it in my personal files) are the lengths of the swedged tubes. To get a "bolt-in" solution with the stock track width, the tubes need to be 7" & 8" not the 8" & 9" that I listed previously (these rod ends have a longer body than most - and those ususally use the 8" & 9" length). If you install the 8 & 9 tubes the track width will increase some, or you could shorten the swaged tubes to have the swaged tubes end as close to the body of the rod end as possible.
Cool. Hopefully they will not be on backorder as long as my first set.
One thing it looks like I forgot to fix in this thread (I fixed it in my personal files) are the lengths of the swedged tubes. To get a "bolt-in" solution with the stock track width, the tubes need to be 7" & 8" not the 8" & 9" that I listed previously (these rod ends have a longer body than most - and those ususally use the 8" & 9" length). If you install the 8 & 9 tubes the track width will increase some, or you could shorten the swaged tubes to have the swaged tubes end as close to the body of the rod end as possible.
I am going "widebody" with some staggard wheels anyway, so as long as the stock strut cap can cover the bend, ill be fine.
I have considered also spacing out the 1 or both of the rod ends so that it trapizoid'd a bit wider out on the knuckle end for extra help keeping things straight. Would that be a horrible idea?
I have considered also spacing out the 1 or both of the rod ends so that it trapizoid'd a bit wider out on the knuckle end for extra help keeping things straight. Would that be a horrible idea?
In stock form the lateral links are not parallel (when viewed from the top side), the upright is about .285" narrower than the cradle pocket spacing. The lateral links are also different lengths so under compression and rebound they cause some toe change. I am pretty sure if you space out the rod ends at the upright (or bias them to the inner pocket walls on the cradle) and make them be parallel, it should lessen the amount of toe change during normal suspension travel.
Decided to go to a 1/2 inch bolt on the inside links.... I need to buy a ream for the inner flanges to get them brought out to the right size. They need to be brought out about 020 so it should be pretty simple to slap some 1/2 bolts in.
The outside is just going to have to deal with the tiny bit of slop, as the ID of the rod end is about 500, and the outer long bolt is about 470.
The ID of the stock bushing sleeves is about .486" so the rod ends do have about .014" more clearance. This shouldn't be any issue once the bolts are properly torqued, but if you wanted to tighten up the joint, you could cut some shim stock about 3/8" wide and 1" long and slide it in between the bolt and the rod end to close the gap.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-01-2012).]
In stock form the lateral links are not parallel (when viewed from the top side), the upright is about .285" narrower than the cradle pocket spacing. The lateral links are also different lengths so under compression and rebound they cause some toe change. I am pretty sure if you space out the rod ends at the upright (or bias them to the inner pocket walls on the cradle) and make them be parallel, it should lessen the amount of toe change during normal suspension travel.
The wheel moves forward and back in the wheel house under brake and acceleration loads due to the rubber bushings in the trailing arm and the arc scribed by the trailing arm. The "trapezoid" plan view may be done deliberately in order to counteract the toe change that would result from fore/aft wheel motion with unequal length parallel links.
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The ID of the stock bushing sleeves is about .486" so the rod ends do have about .014" more clearance. This shouldn't be any issue once the bolts are properly torqued, but if you wanted to tighten up the joint, you could cut some shim stock about 3/8" wide and 1" long and slide it in between the bolt and the rod end to close the gap.
Ditto... properly torquing the bolts (80+ ft lbs) will be just fine. The clearance is a non-issue.
DH: Take a look at the condition of the pivot bolt hole in your knuckles. It may be wallowed a bit. Rodney Dickman recently started offering a service in which he bores that hole slightly and presses in a steel sleeve to return the hole to its original size. You may want to consider that or a similar DIY.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-01-2012).]
I looked close at my knuckles and decided that the bore was in good enough condition to work for me here. I will be using some shim stock to clean up the slop in the rod ends (the long bolt seems to be a bit bigger OD than the inners). I will also gain on the knuckle side by not having any rubber to get in the way of the torqued bolt.
I put some feelers in the knuckle bore today.. it was a struggle to get much more than 005 feelers in there so I feel confident there.
Inner connections now have 1/2 inch bolts, I modified a $2 harbor freight reamer tool to fit well in there (cut it up, and welded a nut on so I could use a wrench/air ratchet). Very happy with the way the inners fit after the reamer tool did its job
I seemed to have misplaced my shim material for the "long bolt to rod end" 020 worth of slack that needed to be taken up... so I had to make a trip to the party store and buy some of the finest available. I ended up stacking it 2 sheets high... cut to fit with a razor blade, and it installed a bit easier than I would have guessed.
Alignment today went fairly well, although the links were a bit hard to cinch up without changing things too much...
Ended up with a bit of toe out, as the toe comes in during compression quite a bit. Test drive on ~500whp was solid... Need to see what 700 is like still but it felt 100% better on low boost so far.
Just wanted to say thanks. I borrowed your idea but I used Rod Ends with Nylon bushings instead of Heim Joints. I like it alot so far. I got my parts from speedwaymotors.
I used Rod Ends with Nylon bushings instead of Heim Joints. I like it a lot so far.
I'd like to hear how well these rod ends with nylon bushings have held up.
As someone who autocrosses and daily drives their Formula under all weather conditions, using heim joints as discussed elsewhere in this thread doesn't appeal to me at all.
FYI, I got about 15k miles with the rod ends before there was noticable wear. This was with driving the car daily, including in the rain. I am probably at 20k miles on them now, but over the winter the rod ends will get replaced.
FYI, I got about 15k miles with the rod ends before there was noticable wear. This was with driving the car daily, including in the rain. I am probably at 20k miles on them now, but over the winter the rod ends will get replaced.
Did you use seals on the heim joints when you did yours?
FYI, I got about 15k miles with the rod ends before there was noticable wear.
Did you put some kind of protective boot over them?
I've looked at "naked" heim joints and they seem so, oh I dunno... un-durable! No grease nipple, no way to keep the water and grit out, etc. It rains here a lot. It just seems to me that a component of this sort wouldn't last long here at all. Any/all lubrication would be washed out in no time IMO. I'm obviously no expert on the matter, but they're not something that I'd normally ever consider for long term daily use on a non trailer-queen car.
Fieroguru, I'm really surprised that they've apparently worked out for you as well as they have.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-11-2016).]
The rod ends specified in this thread are Teflon lined and don't require any other lube. I didn't use any seals and never greased/oiled them. Just install and drive.
With stiffer springs they don't rotate much compared to other applications and they don't experience the same impact loads that the trailing link does.
A while back I found some M12 sealed rod ends, but they were much more expensive and required metric swaged tubes. The 8 rod ends were over $400 but they would probably have a much better life.
Just as a crazy suggestion, maybe you could get some rubber bushings, and trim them to fit over the ends of the joints in the link pockets- they may keep out dust and grit, extending their life....It would also keep the end links verticle so they don't ride on the extended tube(I think a diagram would show what I'm talkin' 'bout better, but I can't post pics anyway- Ask if you don't get what I'm saying....)
Just as a crazy suggestion, maybe you could get some rubber bushings, and trim them to fit over the ends of the joints in the link pockets- they may keep out dust and grit, extending their life....It would also keep the end links verticle so they don't ride on the extended tube(I think a diagram would show what I'm talkin' 'bout better, but I can't post pics anyway- Ask if you don't get what I'm saying....)
I used Teflon lined FK rod ends from Summit Racing with Seals-it rod end seals. I hope they last long term.
This is the first time I've seen this thread. But ironically, I did something similar when I performed an '88 cradle swap in my Fiero a few years ago. I could quip about great minds thinking alike, but IMO the '88 Fiero rear suspension lends itself to the use of rod-end links. I ended up using FK 3-piece rod ends and swaged aluminum tubes from Capital Motorsports. And I reamed out the uprights to fit 1/2" bolts. All the bolts for the suspension links are SAE Grade 8.
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
Just as a crazy suggestion, maybe you could get some rubber bushings, and trim them to fit over the ends of the joints in the link pockets- they may keep out dust and grit, extending their life.
If done incorrectly, that could have the opposite effect (i.e. trapping dirt and moisture in the rod-ends). So make sure to use rod-ends that are made to use dust boots, and of course the appropriate dust boots.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-12-2016).]
This is the first time I've seen this thread. But ironically, I did something similar when I performed an '88 cradle swap in my Fiero a few years ago. I could quip about great minds thinking alike, but IMO the '88 Fiero rear suspension lends itself to the use of rod-end links. I ended up using FK rod-ends and swaged aluminum tubes from Capital Motorsports. And I reamed out the uprights to fit 1/2" bolts. All the bolts for the suspension links are SAE Grade 8.
If done incorrectly, that could have the opposite effect (i.e. trapping dirt and moisture in the rod-ends). So make sure to use rod-ends that are made to use dust boots, and of course the appropriate dust boots.
Nice job.
Question..... Why didn't you change out the last 2 bars? Putting spherical rod ends (the true term) on those 2 links would give more stability and less drag as well as more adjustability.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-12-2016).]
If done incorrectly, that could have the opposite effect (i.e. trapping dirt and moisture in the rod-ends). So make sure to use rod-ends that are made to use dust boots, and of course the appropriate dust boots.
Ok....Fine!....Just forget my suggestion! (I can see your suggestion being possible.....)
And, as for not using solid end links in the trailing arms; This allows the rear wheels to move backwards a bit upon impact, absorbing some of that impact...On a smooth track, it would make perfect sense to have solid links, but I think your time thru a course that was somewhat rough would actually be improved by allowing a bit of compliance fore and aft.....And that is one of the advantages of the 88 rear- You can eliminate lateral play without eliminating longitudinal impact absorbtion.
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Question..... Why didn't you change out the last 2 bars?
I had considered doing that, but decided against it. I wasn't able to find metric rod ends and tubes of the appropriate sizes. And I didn't feel good about reaming out the sleeves in the cradle (the cradle has metal sleeves welded into it, for the trailing arm bolts) to fit SAE hardware. I also didn't feel like cutting out the sleeves, and welding in SAE sized ones. So I left them alone.
That said, if I did find a source of metric rod ends and sleeves, I wouldn't hesitate to make some trailing links.
To svxjet: I'm not trying to poo-poo your idea at all. For a car that's daily driven, using rod ends with dust boots would be a very good idea. But good intentions can turn sour, if not implemented properly.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-12-2016).]
I had considered doing that, but decided against it. I wasn't able to find metric rod ends and tubes of the appropriate sizes. And I didn't feel good about reaming out the sleeves in the cradle (the cradle has metal sleeves welded into it, for the trailing arm bolts) to fit SAE hardware. I also didn't feel like cutting out the sleeves, and welding in SAE sized ones. So I left them alone.
That said, if I did find a source of metric rod ends and sleeves, I wouldn't hesitate to make some trailing links.
As far as the tubes go, I would have used chrome moly and just tig in a metric bung or just bag the whole metric thing entirely.
Dealing with metric performance parts is a bigger P.I.T.A. than it's worth. You break a part you're pretty much screwed. I break a part, I've got a short ride or at worst a 1 to 2 day wait.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-13-2016).]
As others have said, the trailing link is for all accel, decel and impact loads from road irregularities. They literally take a beating based on the conditions of the road. Rod ends would increase the amount of road harshness felt in the passenger compartment as well as the impact loading on the welded tubes, the bolts, and their connecting points. Same is true for running lower profile tires, but to a smaller degree.
I don't recommend poly for the trailing link either as the front bolt is fixed position, but the rear one arcs with the rear upright travel so poly will induce a higher bending stress in the bolts or torsional stress in the trailing link than rubber does.
There has been at least 1 reported case of a stock trailing link with poly bushings shearing one of the M14 mounting bolts. But a few more failures have been noted over the years when rod ends are used for that link. Most of the time these failures are not quick, but happen over a long period. The one with poly likely had poly for a decade or two before the bolt broke, it was in one of the worse states for road conditions, and it had 400+ tq from the engine as another contributor. So it was probably an extreme case.
When you start comparing the M14 bolt size for Fiero with 1600 or so lbs on the rear and M16 for W body, with the same or likely less rear weight... you start to think that it probably isn't a good idea long term to introduce additional stresses to the trailing link bolts... so I always run them with rubber bushings.
I run a 4 link on my pro Fiero and a ladder bar on my wagon. Both have Ford 9 inchers in them, both have a complete spherical rod end suspensions and both are street driven.
They are noisier than stock, but then, either you're building a suspension to work or you're not. When you try to have your cake and eat it too, you need to take the good with the bad. It's called, compromise and deal with it.
As far as breaking off the front bolt, there's a very simple solution..... Box it in. It should have been right from the factory anyway.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-13-2016).]
If you want a sealed metric rod end, as I previously mentioned they are available through: Hirschmann Engineering USA, Inc. 165 East Commerce Drive, Suite 104 Schaumburg, Illinois 60173
The sealed series is 2RS and they look like these:
When I inquired about their M12 male versions back in August of 2014 the price each was: Steel / $66.67 Each Galvanized / $87.29 Each Stainless / $92.24 Each
You need 8 of them so things get rather expensive in a hurry... but if they will last as long as say a stock tie rod end when driven daily, then it might be the right way to go.
The harder part is the metric swaged tubes. When inquired about them, most were out of stock, the tubing stock was back ordered, and their supplier was saying that other industries (I think the energy sector) had bought out their entire supply. Maybe they are more available now.
And that's what stopped me, lack of availability for swaged tubes in metric sizes. I'm not confident enough in my welding skills nor my welder to make link tubes from scratch.
And that's what stopped me, lack of availability for swaged tubes in metric sizes. I'm not confident enough in my welding skills nor my welder to make link tubes from scratch.
Perfectly understandable.
However, if you fabbed everything up I'm sure there's a welding shop in your area that would do the TIG work at a reasonable price.
I've run standard width rod ends with custom spacers and sealing washers on my '88 for a few years now. They've worn out, but I've learned from that experience.
Next step will be to raise the inner pivots. While doing that, I can built new boxes which will accept these:
I'll have to do some more engineering to build housings for them, but this is a steel on steel ball joint designed for automotive use. It's been in use by Mercedes for 30 years or so and is on dozens of their models. The volume makes them relatively cheap for what they are, but they don't really fit Fiero applications well. The center hole is for a 14mm bolt, the OD is 40mm and the length is 48mm.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-14-2016).]
However, if you fabbed everything up I'm sure there's a welding shop in your area that would do the TIG work at a reasonable price.
You've never seen any of guru's stuff, have you? The quality of his work is exemplary. Check out his LS4 thread in the Construction Zone. Among others.
You've never seen any of guru's stuff, have you? The quality of his work is exemplary. Check out his LS4 thread in the Construction Zone. Among others.
I wasn't picking apart guru's work I was making suggestions to Blacktree.
You've never seen any of my work, there's always other ways to skin a cat. I personally would rather build as much of my own suspension as possible and would never use anything metric. I have on occasion broke parts while at a track and as much as I hate big box stores, bought replacements at places like Advance Auto Parts within an hour or had Summit Racing put a part in my hand the next day keeping me from missing a race. You're not going to do that with anything metric unless you live overseas.
B.T.W.: I have seen guru's LS4 and give him kudos for using an "excellent" powerplant.
As I prepare to replace the rod ends on my LS4/F40 Fiero due to wear/play after 3 years and 20+K miles, I wanted to revisit one area I wasn't completely happy with. The rod ends are 1/2" and the bolts are M12, so there ends up being about .032" of slop between the rod end and bolt when installed. Some have cut up coke cans to make some shims, but I have found something that should work.
McMaster.com, part # 7237K39, 1/2" OD aluminum tube, 12" long, 0.016" wall thickness, 0.468" ID = $4.55 + shipping.
This off the shelf tube is the perfect size to fit inside the rod end and allow the M12 bolt to pass through. 12" is also enough material to make 8 sleeves... not bad.
The challenge will be cutting the sleeves w/o distorting the ends too much. I think I will slide the long bolt into the tube to support the wall and use a copper tubing cutter.
Lol. We've seen your work plenty of times. You're always in a hurry to show off your iron head boat anchor SBC, a Fiero that hasn't moved under its own power in so long that it's grown wheel dollies and a shot of your wagon in Pinks... Really, dude? WTF? You might as well post a picture of your meth lab.
Oh, come on Will, don't sugar coat it, tell him how you really feel...
If silence is golden, why is duct tape silver??? Joe
