I haven't seen a 4.9 swap in a while so I figure I'll start posting my progress... Truth is I just figured out how to resize my pictures to work with PIP. I have found that following other peoples progress to be a great source of motivation and hope that posting my swap will inspire others with their projects...that and I don't know what else to do with all the pictures I've taken. I'm almost 5 months into this swap so much of what's to come will be old new but hopefully fun none the less!
Here's what she looked like just before I started turning wrenches in early December.
The garage looks so much cleaner back then.
A few shots of the cleaned up engine. It was out of a 94 Sedan Deville with only 116,000kms on her...just barely broken in. I heard it run before I pulled it out of the car and she ran very well. The car only had a bit of a dented fenter and hood. I had the oil pan off during the cleanup and found not a spec of sludge or grime and the cross hatch could be seen clearly down the cyl bores.
Here you can see my belt tensioner bracket. Custom made from 3/8" aluminum plate. The tensioner is from a Saturn and fits quite nicely into that little pocket. The PCV valve tube is custom bent from the caddy's tube to tuck out of the way. Had some trouble with the bending though. Killed 2 tubes before settling for this.
A closer shot of the bracket. Had to notch it to clear the manifold bolt
A side shot of the engine. Small rag pieces prevent dirt from entering the engine exhaust ports and intake. Notice the relocated oil fill cap with custom made bent tube entering the side of the valve cover. I expect that it will be slow filling the engine but that's ok. With the amount of time spent cleaning up this engine, it's peanuts in comparison!
A great place to store tools, parts, and the occasional toy.
Disconnecting the hampster wheel begins! Fuel lines up and out of the way.
Harness, hoses, and lines labeled and out of the way
Caliper hung and e-brake out of the way. Next time I'll make sure the caliper is hung more securely to prevent being bumped and dropped.
Uneven rear pad wear...possibly sticking sliders?
Cradle bolts came out easily...a little more difficult with the passenger side though.
Coolant lines drained from plug...found a bit of a kink in the tube...I think I'll leave it. Anyone had problems with slight kinks and over heating?
A better shot of the kink
E-brake cable disconnected. Love that giant oil filter plug!
That's enough for today. I hope others here enjoy following an engine swap as much as I have enjoy following many of yours!
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 04-26-2012).]
I'd check the top section of the coolant tube, very common for them to get crushed. It could be ALOT more crushed then it looks, trust me, been there done that. The coolant tube looked similar to yours, but once I dropped it down for inspection, it was 50% or more "kinked".
mattwa: I will drop the tube to check the kink further at your suggestion. I have ideas on how I want to fix it. I have put 15k on it since purchased with only 185,000kms. And that was over a 3 year stretch. Never had an overheating problem. If anything it never got to running temp and always blew cold air in the winter unless the rad had the cardboard treatment. hercimer01: Never been a fan of cutting out sections...Just kinda picky that way. currently struggling with a similar problem on the fuel line setup. Kinked a section while bending 3/8" line, ordered 3 more sections to try bending n case I make another mistake! The car was virtually rust free when I bought it since it was kept in underground parking and stored for several years. Rust free to the naked eye that is. Two winters of hard driving sped the process up fast...gotta love rear wheel drive in the snow!
As for the kinks - our 88 has 1 on each side and no real problems with overheating, so I will be watching this thread to see what you come up with. Of course there is always the option of buying some new ones from teh Fiero Store if shipping wouldn't be such a killer - I also though of just removing them and having a set made up locally, maybe when I feel ambitious...
mattwa: I will drop the tube to check the kink further at your suggestion. I have ideas on how I want to fix it. I have put 15k on it since purchased with only 185,000kms. And that was over a 3 year stretch. Never had an overheating problem. If anything it never got to running temp and always blew cold air in the winter unless the rad had the cardboard treatment. hercimer01: Never been a fan of cutting out sections...Just kinda picky that way. currently struggling with a similar problem on the fuel line setup. Kinked a section while bending 3/8" line, ordered 3 more sections to try bending n case I make another mistake! The car was virtually rust free when I bought it since it was kept in underground parking and stored for several years. Rust free to the naked eye that is. Two winters of hard driving sped the process up fast...gotta love rear wheel drive in the snow!
My 50%+ crushed coolant tube never caused an overheating issue either with a Duke....a 4.9 is a different story, since I drive a 4.9 Fiero almost every day.
As for the kinks - our 88 has 1 on each side and no real problems with overheating, so I will be watching this thread to see what you come up with. Of course there is always the option of buying some new ones from teh Fiero Store if shipping wouldn't be such a killer - I also though of just removing them and having a set made up locally, maybe when I feel ambitious...
Thanks!
I'm somewhat reluctant to remove the stainless coolant tubes to work on them...I'll just end up polishing them like chrome and I just don't have the time right now.
More surface rust...nothing through the metal at this point. That e-brake line is only 3yrs old. Had it custom made in order to pass insurance inspection. Wish I had known about TFS back then. Wasn't that expensive just time consuming to find someone to make the part. I didn't want the new cable to rub on the cradle or suspension which is why the other set ended up failing...so I used slit rubber hose around the wear areas and wiring heat shrink over top to hold it together and in place. I put a bead of black silicone around the end before heat shrinking to hopefully seal out water and dirt. Did you know that uncured silicone can catch on fire? I know now! Next time I'll use a heat gun and not a flame source.
A poor picture of the 88 E-brake cable routing.
The whole process of removing the engine, tranny and cradle as one was surprisingly easier that I was led to believe. Maybe 4 hours while doggin' it. It took me 12 to remove just the caddy engine through the top of the engine bay! Now the work begins.
This is my setup for lifting the car off the cradle and engine. The hoist is rated for 2000 lbs vertical lift and 4000 lbs horizontal pull. With the engine, tranny and cradle detached, I figure I shaved 6-800lbs from the car. With the front end still on the ground, I should only be lifting maybe 1200lbs. The hoist is anchored around an engineered beam that supports the second floor...should be strong enough to hold my engine-less fiero's butt.
The empty fiero engine bay...man that insulation is ugly! I got plans for that stuff! And the rest of the engine bay for that matter.
The battery tray is in real good shape. Just a bit of surface rust that blasted off in a jiffy. No rust in the sheet metal either! But out it comes! If you need it, let me know. The battery will be relocated to the front. I'm currently fabing up a steel battery box...pics to come later.
The exhaust manifolds were warped a bit. Using a serious file, I brought the surfaces as close to true flat as my patience would allow. I am using two of the same exhaust manifolds from the front of the engine on a 94 deville. The exhaust will go under the engine as I don't like the style that goes over the tranny. Alot of extra work but all in the interest of a clean install.
Here we got some more hidden surface rust behind the driverside wheel well. I guess it's more commonly known as the trunk ledge floor. Not rusted through but definitely thinner than the rest!
I'm going to try a product I saw...a rust converter. This side I'll use a wire wheel to clean off the "loose" rust, as seen in the picture. The other side I'll do a better job of removing the rust. I'll try the spray coverter on both sides and see over time if there is any difference. I don't have much faith in these products, but I'll give it a go!
Here's the upper shock tower PS. The frame rail is starting to puff from rust at the seam but still holding.
Some more wire wheeling of the "loose" rust.
And here's the product. You can see the pictures on the can and get the idea.
A liberal coating of the spray converter and...hmm. Not quite what is pictured on the can, is it?
Another pic of the shock tower.
That's enough for now. Need to save some time for work on the car!
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 04-28-2012).]
Thanks Nolan! The swap's been going on since late November,early December...can't really remember the exact date. I'm just having fun posting all the pics I've got in my camera. I'm hoping others will learn from my experiences and that I'll get some pointers from others with more experience.
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 04-27-2012).]
The rust converter claims to be a good primer so on with the top coat of rubberized underguard.
Wow, this stuff is gross. What is it? Must be some form of water proofing dielectric tar. I don't trust an electrical connection through that crud. I'll have to clean it up a bit. I don't need intermittent electrical problems as a result of poor house keeping.
Here is the fenderwell mounted C500 base I think. I soaked it in a cup of varsol for 3 or 4 days to loosen the crud and removed the cover to expose the wires.
These pics were taken mostly as a backup record of where the wires go cuz they're all comin' out!
here everything is picked clean and brushed off with laquer thinner. No more crud.
All fresh and clean and back in their proper homes...I hope.
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 04-28-2012).]
Nice build! The 2 winters has definitely done a lot of damage though... Once salt gets up into the nooks and crannies..it is very hard to get it out. Hopefully you can pick up a beater for next winter and oil spray/store this baby so it will give you many more years of enjoyment.
You can use dielectric grease on the front side to re-waterproof the connector. I also use liquid tape on the wire side of connectors that are not weatherproof but are in weather exposed situations. It is water resistant and while not convenient, is re-enterable.
hercimer01; I figured it was put there for a reason . I just didn't think that 22 yrs would leave it in the same state that it was from factory and might cause continuity problems. I plan on using some dielectric grease to help keep the water out and prevent corrosion.
cam-a-lot: I'm hoping to get my other project running as a beater next winter; a 1967 ford econoline panel van...you know, the scooby doo van. If one of my kids hasn't written off my fiero by 2018, I'm planning on striping it down to the bare chassis and having it fully media blasted/treated and coated. I've done some powder coating of parts on this car and I'm sold on the process...unless any one here knows of some way better.
phonedawgz; I plan on re-waterproofing the connector using dielectric grease on both the connector side and the back. I have some of that liquid tape but think it may be too permanent a solution if I ever need to get to the wiring again. I was hoping to find a dielectric grease that is thicker than what I have used in the past. I'm kinda worried that the lighter stuff might melt out of the plug with the engine bay heat and make a mess. Any one know of a specific product?
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 05-18-2012).]
Here's probably the worst rust found so far. It's on the drivers side top frame rail in front of the shock tower and visible without the deck vent on. Started out as a bulb of sheetmetal and quickly became a removed tumor. Not really structural, just irritating. It doesn't look too bad, so I'm going to "convert" it and paint. It will serve as a good point for me to monitor the performance of that spray stuff.
Back side of rust bulb.
Here's the driver side shock tower...not too bad but showing it's age.
DS trunk floor, not so nice. I'll do a better job removing rust on this side and see how that spray stuff does with more than just a wire brush.
That's better! You can definitely feel the reduced thickness of the sheet metal.
Protected with converter and rubberized undercoating. Oops, missed a spot!
The rest of the wheel well area.
Some more salt damage on the DS. The paints coming off but the metals not rusting yet. Must be galvanized.
Engine bay cleaned with lacquer thinner, scuffed, and ready for paint.
Masked and coated with Duplicolor engine enamel gloss black. I like how fast this paint dries and the shine but I have found it to be very brittle. It chips and scratches easily. Not the best paint for the job but oh well, what's done is done...till next time.
The fire wall was coated in the rubberized undercoating to help with the sound deadening.
Wow, what a difference!
I'm planning on using a V6 air filter assembly so I want to open up it's air way abit. It starts with a piece of flat stock cut, cleaned and welded in place of the stamped nut support.
After welding the flat stock in place and to the nut, I used a dremel to cut away that restrictive stamped support.
Here you can clearly see the openness of this airway...If I had taken a picture before cutting out the other support, we could have compared. Believe me, it's much better this way.
Sand blasted and ready for paint.
Air filter cansiter gets the same treatment. Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a gasket of sorts between this canister and the base?
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 08-05-2012).]
As far as lifting the car is concerned, if you pull the trunk carpet, there are a couple of holes on each side ofthe reinforcing beam that goes across the trunk wall. I use a ruddy big chain and a couple of equally big hooks into those holes to lift. Since it's integral to the car, far less chance of anything giving way/bending and letting things fall.
Nice swap, I've got same car (gotta love notchies), but I doubt I'll ever swap anything into it as the upper frame rail had some serious rust issues and although I've replaced it all, of the two cars I've got (other is 85 v6) the 88 is the worst although it does drive nice AND have half decent brakes. That 4.9 though is going to be a serious upgrade from the duke, mated to an automagic (pretty sad combination in my opinion).
There was once a gasket between the canister and the base. I use a ring of soft high temp foam to seal it up. I would put a layer of reflective insulation over the undercaoting you sprayed on the firewall to protect it from heat.
Thanks! It just doesn't seem right without some form of seal. I was considering cutting one out of a sheet of that thin craft foam the scrapbooking community uses...where do you get high temp foam? As for the undercoating on the fire wall...that's just step one. Keep watching for the process of my firewall upgrade!
As far as lifting the car is concerned, if you pull the trunk carpet, there are a couple of holes on each side ofthe reinforcing beam that goes across the trunk wall. I use a ruddy big chain and a couple of equally big hooks into those holes to lift. Since it's integral to the car, far less chance of anything giving way/bending and letting things fall.
Nice swap, I've got same car (gotta love notchies), but I doubt I'll ever swap anything into it as the upper frame rail had some serious rust issues and although I've replaced it all, of the two cars I've got (other is 85 v6) the 88 is the worst although it does drive nice AND have half decent brakes. That 4.9 though is going to be a serious upgrade from the duke, mated to an automagic (pretty sad combination in my opinion).
Would have been nice to know about those lifting points back in December! I'm happy with my current setup. 2"x2" 3/16" angle iron bolted to the shock towers seems pretty strong. I figure if the shock towers take the weight and impact of the car through the suspension day in day out, It should be good to lift from. I made sure not to use cheap bolts though! The design could use some triangulated reinforcing but given the weight without the cradle, It's not really needed. I make sure to use jack stands as I'm lifting as a backup. Formula's my personal favorite body style, but I wouldn't modify it if I had one, just restore. That's what I like about the 2.5 88, special enough to fix up, not special enough to keep stock! Brakes are being upgraded to 12" corvette. Personally not a fan of automatic cars. I enjoy rowing through the gears of a standard! The 4.9 is being mated to the stock isuzu 5spd with a centerforce clutch. I know the isuzu's rep but I've put 15k on it and it's been flawless. Besides, I'll run it till it dies and all the while source and build a better tranny/clutch setup.
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 05-01-2012).]
Yea, with a Duke!! Next to the 4.9 is whole 'nother situation. Considering my experience, I wouldn't ever do it. But that's just me.
How did I know you'd chime in about the isuzu
I got it, it works, I don't plan on driving it really hard, and I want the tall 5th for highway driving. I'm one of those people who love projects...and I know this will be one for the future!
I'll be the first to admit the Isuzu has the best gearing for a 4.9. However, it's not very strong of a transmission. So yea, don't beat on it, and it should hold.
Nice job so far on the Notchie...I am in the midst of gathering parts for my 88 notchie 4.9 conversion and hope when I get going mine looks as good as yours does so far. Your car is very clean to start with, mine has faded paint and some blistering paint but if conversion goes well will get a fresh coat. Good luck and great thread so far.
My 3.4 DOHC was mated to a 5 speed isuzu. It cruised great, doing 70 at around 2400 rpm in 5th. Just loped along. Main problem for me was that the gap from 1st to 2nd was too big and the box was 'slow' to change gears with. So I'd gun it in 1st (engined reved to 9000 so lots of 'go') but by the time I got it into second the revs had dropped all the way off and I have to gas it again. Loads of fun to drive though. These cars really come alive with a decent motor in them, plus it's just so satisfying to do a swap.
Nice job so far on the Notchie...I am in the midst of gathering parts for my 88 notchie 4.9 conversion and hope when I get going mine looks as good as yours does so far. Your car is very clean to start with, mine has faded paint and some blistering paint but if conversion goes well will get a fresh coat. Good luck and great thread so far.
Thanks for the compliments! I hope to paint mine when I'm done but the current finish is good enough that I will put it off for a while so I can tend to other projects. I've got some good details on the way I've dealt with all the little things that come up and present a challenge. There isn't too much in the way of "kits" to help install a 4.9 and I have had to overcome many obstacles.
My goals with this swap have always been; To keep it affordable by doing as much of my own work as possible and re-using what I can. To keep it clean and free from as much clutter in the engine bay as possible. To keep a level of harmony as to the appearance on all components. To use high quality workmanship. To make it look stock...as if it may have been offered from the factory.
I'm trying to record my solutions to the obstacles so others have a reference point for their own solutions. Hopefully it helps. I know I've learned much by following the swap threads of others!
Are you going to be replacing the bushings in the rear suspension while you have it out? I am hoping to replace mine but would like to go with rubber instead of poly...I put poly in my front end a couple years ago and pulled them all out this year. The poly seemed to make the front end harsher on bumps and also kept fighting the squeeks which would come and go, not sure if I didn't get them greased enough or what but sure like the rubber back in the front end now. What type of a muffler are thinking of using, I would like to end up with something which isn't loud at all in normal driving but would give a nice sound when getting into it.
Back to the drive train for a bit. This is my solution to removing the oil from the tranny while it's sitting on the ground. Vacuum removes air from oil jug and replaces it with oil from hose going into tranny.
I took a bunch of pics as references as to what goes where and how. I won't bore you with all of them but just the general idea.
I didn't have any troubles with the long bolt through the knuckle being rusted in place or any of the other for that matter.
Here I am measuring the height and location of the 2.5 crankshaft as a reference for the 4.9 crankshaft. A small notch filed in the cradle will provide a permanent mark. Lots of scraping of crud off the cradle to do.
Here is my firewall upgrade. A sheet of 1/8" Aluminum bent at specific angles to fit between the window ledge and the tunnel at the bottom of the firewall. Careful measurements and lots of time cutting, filing, sanding, polishing provides an almost mirror like finish so I can see all the crap on the back of the engine!
Watching TV in the reflection.
I am using the aluminum to sandwich the original ugly firewall insulation. I picked up some under hood insulation to fill in some gaps and put between the harness opening and the shifter cable opening. Before...
...and after
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 05-02-2012).]
Are you going to be replacing the bushings in the rear suspension while you have it out? I am hoping to replace mine but would like to go with rubber instead of poly...I put poly in my front end a couple years ago and pulled them all out this year. The poly seemed to make the front end harsher on bumps and also kept fighting the squeeks which would come and go, not sure if I didn't get them greased enough or what but sure like the rubber back in the front end now. What type of a muffler are thinking of using, I would like to end up with something which isn't loud at all in normal driving but would give a nice sound when getting into it.
Yes, I'm putting in poly but I want black. I have a set of black for the front and ordered a set for the back...haven't got em yet. The black ones are proving hard to get...anyone got a set they want to sell? My rubber bushings in the back looked rough but were not to bad once I got em out. I"ve got a solution to the squeeking I'm going to try...keep you all posted in the future. I'll get to how I removed the bushings from the suspension shortly. I'll post an easy step by step removal without firing up the oxy ace torch to burn them out...and in less time than it would take me to clean up that mess.
Muffler is kinda an odd story. I'm not done with it yet but am eagerly awaiting the sound my Frankenmuffler makes when I fire her up! The rest of the exhaust is cost effective custom fabricated. Two tools the serious DIY car guy must have; an angle grider and a mig welder!
That insulation cover is very nice. Did you use a brake for the bends or some other method?
I had it made and bent at a local machine shop but did all the custom cutting etc myself. $35 for the raw material and bent. It's just one of those details I had to farm out. On the plus side, because the company I work for gives him so much business, I got a 750ml bottle of Bacardii's black rum as a Christmas gift!
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 05-02-2012).]
Rather than marking the location of the crankshaft on the 2.5, mark the location of the transmission output shafts. Those are the critical points of reference. Reuse the factory transmission location and then set the engine plumb and square.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 05-03-2012).]
Rather than marking the location of the crankshaft on the 2.5, mark the location of the transmission output shafts. Those are the critical points of reference. Reuse the factory transmission location and then set the engine plumb and square.
I'm keeping the stock transmission and transmission mounts. As their locations haven't changed I figure neither will the output shafts locations. As the engine crankshaft should be a direct line of sight through to the transmission gear shaft, marking the cradle as I have done will ensure the 4.9 is sitting exactly the 2.5 did....I hope.
Well, with everything out of the engine bay, I needed a way to move the car around in a tight garage. Any Ideas what this'll be for?
Ok, how about now?
I'm sure it's gotta make sence from this angle.
With some left over scrap metal and 4 metal castors I now have this neat dolly to push the car around. It bolts right in place of the front cradle mount and works better than expected!
Found a picture of the oil pressure sensor that shorted out internally and caught on fire. Nearly left me stranded at the side of the road in the mountains. Cut the wires, replace the fuse, and keep on driving! https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119028.html
Getting ready to deal with those exhaust manifolds some more. I don't like the gaskets I got. They don't match up 100% and the extra material, while good for positioning all 4 ports at once, looks lazy.
Here you can see that the excess material has been removed so it is out of sight, out of mind. I also trimmed them and made sure that they matched the bolt holes and port. I also numbered them so I know where they are supposed to go. I hope this cleans up the engine a little. I thought about going without the gasket but as the manifold is cast and not 100%, I figured it's worth the money.
Here is one of the manifolds sandblasted and coated with that VHT manifold ceramic coating. The instructions say 2 light coats followed by one medium but I found it hard to put on a medium without the finish being kinda rough. Better to put on a little thicker for the last coat if you want a smooth surface.
This manifold has a crack in it that I had welded at a machine shop. It took a couple of months to find this one in the picknpull so I bought it only to find 3 the next week. Murphy's Law I guess.
A closer pic of the weld
My neighbor used this stuff and baked it in the kitchen stove. Upset his wife considerably so I decided on a more manly means of cooking.
Fresh off the grill! Gotta love that golden hue! Mmmmmm.
Time to deal with the messy transmission. Varsol, wire brushes and a whole lot of elbow grease.
Pics taken to remember where things go.
Looking better!
I'm not a fan of painting aluminum to look like aluminum so I'll keep this box au natural. That and I don't want to waste the paint b/c I don't anticipate this tranny lasting too long!
Splitting the happy couple.
Well, maybe not too happy.
Yeah, this just isn't going to do it. The assembly is in pretty good shape and has some life left in it for another 2.5, just not a 4.9.
Is this rust normal?
And the replacement setup. The guy at the performance store had lots of confidence in this clutch. I hope the destruction I have seen recently on this forum regarding this clutch is not what I have to look forward to. flywheel side
and the comparisons:
[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 05-05-2012).]
