Let us not get caught up solely in the which engine is faster argument. Both the boosted 3800 and the V8's have their place. People choose engines for different reasons, look/wow factor, ease of swap, horsepower, gas mileage, sound, reliability, weight and COST. Look at Troyboy's big bucks Fiero and most will agree that its an absolute masterpiece. Then take a look at what PBJ and Darkhorizon are putting down in the 1/4 mile and that's impressive in its own right. My leanings are toward powerful boosted V6's engines while others want the LS2, LS3's and even the LS7's. Point is that they are all offer their own advantages.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Look at Troyboy's big bucks Fiero and most will agree that its an absolute masterpiece.
If it never goes down the quarter mile (or road course, roundy-round, Autox, whatever...), then who knows? Without development testing, it's guaranteed to be slow.
Talk is cheap. Timeslips are expensive.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-12-2012).]
What would the 1/2 mile race look like, V8 vs. SC ?
Opinion..........I'd be looking back at the SC in my rear view mirror. Don't know what my car does in the quarter with the new engine, and really don't care, didn't build it for that. My engine pulls hard all the way up to 7,500 rpm, which is what the hydraulic cam is ground for. It will not lay down till you hit that rpm.
I've never had an issue with the 5 spd Getrag on the "Top End", it holds up (been to 165 mph more than once with throttle left). Have heard from more than one 3800 SC guys that they don't trust their auto trans too much above 135 mph.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-12-2012).]
The decision to go with a 3800 SC or a V-8 is strictly up to you. It is a matter of personal preference. Take a ride in each and see which one you prefer. No matter which engine you go with you need to ride in a Fiero with that engine. Each engine will make the Fiero act/feel differently. It is a night and day difference and only you can choose what you like. Me personally, I like the older muscle car or streetrod feel. That is why I chose a carb'd V-8 with the 4-spd manual. It only has 355hp, runs a respectable 12.3 seconds in the 1/4 mile for the power, and I have been running this setup setup for 7 years without any problems. I drove and rode in quite a few Fiero's with many different engine swaps before I chose the V-8. Do not let anyone else make the decision for you.
Asking for opinions is going to get you a huge thread of many different opinions. Regardless which engine you choose, modifying it for huge power is always going to lead to transmission issues. Yes Don Kraus built a high horse power LS V-8 and at present has not completed a full run. He did however get in a run where he ran 11 seconds flat and was only at half throttle for over half the track due to some issues. Then the trans gave out at the start of the second run. (his story is in the latest NIFE Fiero Focus Newsletter) FieroX has an awesome turbo 3800 but if you look back he also ate a few transaxles over the years as well. He still is planning mods to get into the 9 second range. I bet by the fall of this year he will do it. The Electric Fiero has been amazing with what it can do. As technology advances you will probably see more and more electric racecars as well. That does not mean you have to do it to your car. It just means others have chosen what they wanted.
When building a car for drag racing there is going to be many hurdles to over-come. Not only does the engine need to perform, But the trans has to get the power to the ground and the suspension needs to handle it as well. There are many here who have just swapped in a decent engine and drive it for fun and then there are those that swapped and modifed (and keep modifying) for the most power. There is nothing wrong with either way you want to go. It is all your choice.
If it never goes down the quarter mile (or road course, roundy-round, Autox, whatever...), then who knows? Without development testing, it's guaranteed to be slow.
Talk is cheap. Timeslips are expensive.
Well usually I don't get involved in these V8 vs V6 threads as I have had both of them and liked both of them. But I see my name has come up so I guess I will do some "cheap talk" .... I don't need a time slip to know that my car is fast just as I don't need a ruler to know that my ...... Well you know or maybe you don't.
Just having some fun Will ,just be careful with the sharp edges on the ruler.
Just enjoy what ever you have and like, there will always be someone faster
If it never goes down the quarter mile (or road course, roundy-round, Autox, whatever...), then who knows? Without development testing, it's guaranteed to be slow.
Talk is cheap. Timeslips are expensive.
I doubt if that car can make it down the 1/4 mile with 750 hp. Apparently it was built for the WOW factor and that's what the owner likes. The only question is why put something in there so powerful if you never intend to use full power or race it?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I doubt if that car can make it down the 1/4 mile with 750 hp. Apparently it was built for the WOW factor and that's what the owner likes. The only question is why put something in there so powerful if you never intend to use full power or race it?
Why ask Why? If you really want to know go stand out side a Porsche dealership and as new owners walk outside ask them if they plan to race it. When 95% of them tell you no in a not so nice way maybe you will start to understand (or not). Life is too short to worry about why people do things that don't effect you.
Dennis please dont take this the wrong way, lol only my wife gets to ask me why I do the crazy things I do.
PS. the car is driven more than it's showed, just not a 1/4 mile at a time.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 05-14-2012).]
Why ask Why? If you really want to know go stand out side a Porsche dealership and as new owners walk outside ask them if they plan to race it. When 95% of them tell you no in a not so nice way maybe you will start to understand (or not). Life is too short to worry about why people do things that don't effect you.
Dennis please dont take this the wrong way, lol only my wife gets to ask me why I do the crazy things I do.
PS. the car is driven more than it's showed, just not a 1/4 mile at a time.
Better not arguing. Always the same few ones. These people will never understand. They have issues. There is a proper psychology term but is up to them to seek help.
Next timer there is a Fiero meet, 2 people bring HQ video cameras, one at each end of the strip, and lets just settle the argument on youtube. V8 vs V6. Several different cars, several different drivers, several different races.
Can't tell me it wouldnt be fun, and at the end, we would have an awesome 1/2 hour Fiero race video to watch.
Next timer there is a Fiero meet, 2 people bring HQ video cameras, one at each end of the strip, and lets just settle the argument on youtube. V8 vs V6. Several different cars, several different drivers, several different races.
Can't tell me it wouldnt be fun, and at the end, we would have an awesome 1/2 hour Fiero race video to watch.
You're missing the point. V8 owners don't need to do that. Merely having a V8 wins any debate that arises. It is what it is.
First let me say i am not picking V8 or V6 but in my opinion the Fiero started as a Sports Car so just a 1/4 mile race is only 1 part of what it should do well. 1/4 mile isn't fast but it measure how quick it is and to measure how fast it is you need to run 1 mile but then you need to do a run on a road coarse pulse a breaking test a slalom cones test a 0 to 60 back to 0 test and maybe a few more test then you can crown who is king V8 or V6 . just my opinion Oh ya all test must be performed on the same cars and same tires not this guy has a set of slicks and the other on a set of street tires and when i say same i mean brand width hight and compound
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 05-15-2012).]
Better not arguing. Always the same few ones. These people will never understand. They have issues. There is a proper psychology term but is up to them to seek help.
The word you are looking for is age......That is what sets the 3800 group apart from the V-8 crowd plain and simple....The 3800 group consist of the younger crowd that would rather go fast then have just the WOW factor. If you don't think so then start a aggressor in General asking age of each....
I personally plan on one day having both. As of right now I will start with the 3.8 SC Fiero then get another to drop an LS into it. I already have 2 LS powered vehicles and neither are Fieros. My Z28 will probably stomp my Fieros tail in the 1/4 but I have more in just the rear end of it then I do my Fiero and the L67 combined (so far). I know and love LS power but the complexity and cost of the swap changed my mind on an LS swap in a Fiero. I'll have fun with both I can assure you.
The word you are looking for is age......That is what sets the 3800 group apart from the V-8 crowd plain and simple....The 3800 group consist of the younger crowd that would rather go fast then have just the WOW factor. If you don't think so then start a aggressor in General asking age of each....
Really? Maybe down in Texas it is that way. Up in the midwest I know quite a few who have 3800 series engines that are my age and older than me and about the same average of younger folks with V-8's. At the Fiero shows that I attend I would say that age really does not play a part in how many cylinders a person's engine has. The only thing that appears to make a difference based on age is with V-8's the younger folks lean towards the LS series and the V-6 folks seem to want to do the newer style V-6's (3.5, 3.6, 3.9, etc.) where the older folks do the 3800's and the older iron head SBC's.
That's OK in a few years the 3800 engines will slowly disappear (not made anymore and its popularity in racing is declining), The newer generation V-6's will become more popular as the aftermarket increases for them. So we will see a lot of 3900 vs. LS-V8 threads in the future and the universe will again be at peace. LMAO.
age has nothing to do with it. When I was in high school, the only way to go fast was to have a bigger V8....bigger cam....exhaust etc. (I graduated in 1993). The only way to make a Fiero fast back then was to use a V8. Then I got older, but wanted to use the technology available and make it faster....the 3800s/c was the solution.
Now, I'm older still (37) and rather than get stuck in my ways like everyone else my age who is still tinkering with carburetors, (I had to explain to the mechanic next door why our 6 cylinders make his 5.0 look silly...He literally cried after going for a ride in a 400hp 3800 Fiero) I'm looking into the next best thing. The 3800 is a dinosaur and I plan to keep up with the latet technology while being old enough to fund it.
My next swap will be a four cam V6, turbo, direct injected and 6 speed. The sad thing is that I already see that as an old setup with all the new German hybrid technology out there. The new Porsche 911 hybrid flywheel technology will probably be introduced into other street cars over the next 10 years. (if ya get the chance, google it)
I will grow with the technology and not let it pass me by.
So, 10 years from now, will the big heated discussion be 3800 vs ecotec?
I'm not about comparing V6's and V8's. I don't care.
My interest in track times comes from the viewpoint that "racing improves the breed". I built a car, I drive it around and think it's fast. Maybe I do something to it and I think it's faster. How do I know if that change I made had any effect at all? How do I know there's not a serious flaw in some part of my design? Put it to the test.
But I guess that's the difference between the built and bought mentalities.
Building a fast car and never taking it to the track or strip is like building a satellite and leaving it on the ground.
Turning a collection of parts that are bolted together into a well sorted car happens at a track or strip, using measurement equipment to quantify what the car does. Even Vorshlag with all their experience needed development testing to make the GRM $2011 Challenge E30 V8 work well.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-15-2012).]
I'm not about comparing V6's and V8's. I don't care.
My interest in track times comes from the viewpoint that "racing improves the breed". I built a car, I drive it around and think it's fast. Maybe I do something to it and I think it's faster. How do I know if that change I made had any effect at all? How do I know there's not a serious flaw in some part of my design? Put it to the test.
But I guess that's the difference between the built and bought mentalities.
Building a fast car and never taking it to the track or strip is like building a satellite and leaving it on the ground.
Turning a collection of parts that are bolted together into a well sorted car happens at a track or strip, using measurement equipment to quantify what the car does. Even Vorshlag with all their experience needed development testing to make the GRM $2011 Challenge E30 V8 work well.
I know I did it right when the smog reff gives me a certification that says it is legal to drive anywere in the US. People do things for there own reasons. Mine was to get a lot more power and still be able to pass a smog check. That vast majority of mods on 3800's ARE NOT LEGAL in CA. My LS make over 300hp and is legal. Something about hearing " Son,...I'm gonna have to impound your car because it is modified for racing" that makes me want to look at this HP game differently.
Then you have a verifiable measure that your work meets certain criteria... That's all a timeslip is, too. Talking about how fast your car is without any evidence of any kind (at least TroyBoy has a dyno sheet... that's a start) is just... well... those are the guys who really need the rulers.
Then you have a verifiable measure that your work meets certain criteria... That's all a timeslip is, too. Talking about how fast your car is without any evidence of any kind (at least TroyBoy has a dyno sheet... that's a start) is just... well... those are the guys who really need the rulers.
Would it be fair to say my LS Fiero is faster than a stock Fiero? Or That it feels much more powerfull? Because both are true in this case. Now IF I were to say that this car is faster than your car, without proof then I would be oustside of reason. I dont need time slips to know the car is fun to drive. There is no way to measure fun factor in such a way to compare it to other cars and say whos is "funner". I did not build a race car. I built a hobby car. I have fun with my hobby. That is all the proof I need. Now some day I hope to do SCCA for the fun of it, but the drag strip does not seem to be as fun so it is a very low priority to me. But I see why people want to see time slips, and I would do it at a gathering of Fieros just for the fun of it.
Honestly the idea that the 3800 go fast guys are all young people is probably at least partially false. I plan to do one and I just turned 41 this year. I want to do one simply because I had the opportunity to drive and ride in a build 3800SC car and was extremely impressed with the power on tap. That thing could basically fry the tires at will and the acceleration was most impressive. I could just imagine what a built turbo 3800 car feels like....must be really brutal. Personally I could care less whether that kind of power was made by a LS or an ecotec or an electric motor for that matter but I am gonna be needing that kinda thrust in my car to make my giggle meter peg.
As far as the dyno runs or dragstrip runs go, personally I do not understand why anyone would spend a bunch of time or money or both installing an engine swap and all the necessary mods to make it work right and NOT want to find out in some way what you have. I mean it is no different than building a custom rifle and putting a nice expensive scope on it and sticking it in a custom stock and not ever taking it to the range to see how well it groups? Besides, running on the dragstrip is TONS of fun and trying to beat your personal best is also something to be proud of to me. I used to occasionally take my 5.0 mustangs down to Moroso Motorsports Park In West Palm Beach Florida and run them just for fun and meet my buddies who also had them down there. It was a great way to have fun with friends and hang out on the weekends. They also had a lot of cool car shows and whatnot there all the time. When I get my swap complete I will surely run it at least a couple times to kinda see what I have and enjoy running the thing down the track. Can't wait actually.
Everyone is different and some folks just like to build it just to drive it around to car shows and show off I suppose but for me one of the most appealing aspects of the Fiero is that it is possible to make it pretty damn fast for what is comparatively little money. That and I cannot afford a ZR1 Corvette or an exotic car.... peace
Originally posted by Pete Matos: I mean it is no different than building a custom rifle and putting a nice expensive scope on it and sticking it in a custom stock and not ever taking it to the range to see how well it groups?
Exactly. Great analogy. AND... what are the odds that the first group you shoot through that rifle will be the best group you *can* shoot with it? ZERO.
Just like a rifle needs to be "dialed in" (not just zeroing the sights, but bullet weight/powder load in the "sweet spot" for the barrel, trigger pull, trigger break, etc. all need optimization) to perform at its best, so does a car.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-15-2012).]
I'm 71 and I have two n* Fieros and one LS4 Fiero. I have enough time and money to be able to choose. I just like aluminum V8s and I like to boost them. If all I cared about was performance on a budget, I probably would go the 3800SC way. I will get a dyno slip and a quarter mile time slip just because I'm curious and I want to be able to give a real answer when people ask me, except for the top speed. I know that whatever the top speed is, it's faster than I want to go. I have no interest in competing in car shows or on drag strips? No matter how pretty it is, someone will eventually make one prettier. No matter how fast it is, someone will eventually be faster. I just want to enjoy them and mIx with car guys for a few more years. My boosted LS4 is in a replica that weighs 3400 lbs, so although it's quick, this is not the platform for a competitive quarter mile car. I think that I can probably make 11 seconds, maybe 10. After I find out what it's capable of I'll dial the boost back to 5 lbs for reliability. I should have around 400hp with 5 lbs and that makes a pretty aggressive Fiero. Just some viewpoints from probably the oldest fart here.
Notice the car has street plates !
