Thanks, I had found that. Great link. Lots only give you 7 pages. This one is complete. Prndl is adjusted to give correct outputs. Still no shift. Going through wires, VSS might be backwards. Could be the culprit? Speedo works fine... I'm tired. I'll check tomorrow.
I always figured I'd get one of your cables, the need for one seems a bigger priority at this point than I had previously thought. the data would be really useful right now, but I can't get one till after x-mas probably. Till then im armed with a multimeter in uncomfortable positions.
I still have to rule out the vss wires, from what I can tell a vss problem could create a problem like this. On my diagram, vss low should be purple in pin A of vss. my purple is definitely in B. Did I pin them in the ecu based on function vs color? probably, but I need to be sure. Its not like im giving my speedo a big workout in 1st gear only so maybe I'm not seeing something wrong on the speedo when there is? idk. easy enough to verify.
my range switch was pretty gross. It took a bit of fiddling to get it right, some of the contacts seemed to stay closed impossibly long and some didnt seem to open at the right time. last drive i took it should have been correct. I'll have to check the signal at the ecu too, I only was dealing with the switch connector yesterday.
The VSS being backwards can cause the ECU to operate incorrectly (not read the VSS signal) even when the speedo getting the same signal works correctly. Does the 2240 have a speedometer output? It's probably better to drive only the ECU from the VSS, and let the ECU drive the speedo via the conversion circuit.
The VSS being backwards can cause the ECU to operate incorrectly (not read the VSS signal) even when the speedo getting the same signal works correctly. Does the 2240 have a speedometer output? It's probably better to drive only the ECU from the VSS, and let the ECU drive the speedo via the conversion circuit.
I do have the conversion at the ecu output #1. Its probably not the wires reversed. I'm just grabbing straws with what I'm finding.
I have speedo running through output of ecu to buffer and Its working.
Your VSS works. The ECM is receiving the signal.
That said - Every VSS connector I have hanging on my wall has A- Purple and B -Yellow
Also interesting - the crank pick up on 60 deg V6 engines use the same connector, and the same color wires, but does wire them reversed.
The VSS connector is harder than most to unpin. It is a pull to seat terminal, so that means it is a push to unseat. The tool I made to unpin them is a long skinny flat probe made out of a hose clamp. Make sure the tongue of the untanger is long enough to reach past the end of the connector. The hose clamp stainless was also too thick and I had to grind it thinner for it to work.
When uncrimping the tang of the terminal is on the same side as the clip of the connector. Pry out the seal, Shove the tool up the butt side of the connector then as far as you can go. If the tongue comes out the nose of the connector and the terminal stays in the connector, then pull it back slightly and then hold the wire and untanger together and shove them together.
Hit me up if you want to just purchase a new 2 pin pigtail with the right color wires. $5.00 paypal to gofast@reddevilriver shipped US. Assembled or unassembled but unless you have the proper crimp tool you most likely will want it unassembled. They are very hard to crimp without the right crimp tool.
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I haven't seen if you have tested yet if the ECM is grounding the solenoids yet. Take your 12v test light and run it between +12 and one of the solenoid wires. If the ECM grounds the wire your light will come on.
There might be a chance the ECM has a ground wire that isn't grounded that is the ground the ECM uses for grounding the solenoid wires.
Maybe a long shot... You might check your TPS wiring to make sure it's correct. Make sure the signal is varying with throttle position. Closed should be ~.5 volts. Wide open should be somewhere over 4 volts.
When I installed the Allante intake, I discovered that the TPS was not wired as I originally had perceived. The center pin of the Allante TPS was not the wiper, as it was on the Deville. (Yes. I know you don't have the Allante intake.) The transmission shifted at some of the strangest times.
I cant figure out a way to attach page 3 of that[url= ]http://www.auto-olds.ru/4t60e.pdf] atsg manual[/url], but it has a chart referencing the expected solenoid action based on gear shift selection. Does the engine have to be running to test them? I have a few 194 bulbs i can wire up in series to the solenoids and have an idea of what they are trying to do. It appears that they should be "on" like they are doing in park. If they never turn "off" I'll never leave 1st gear.
Also maybe a bad idea, but if I leave round 7 unplugged It should force 3rd gear I think, if that works it can't be bad solenoids right? just solenoids not being commanded corrrectly?
thanks for your wiring notes phonedawgs. One thing unrelated that interested me is your temp light to cooling #2 I had not heard that one before, only the head temp sensor.
Good luck with your swap squishy. I'll keep an eye on yours too when you start.
[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 11-06-2014).]
Wire the test bulb in parallel, not series. For each bulb one end should be connected to the +12v, and the other end should be T spliced to the existing wire to the transmission.
0.5v most likely indicates the ECM is grounding the solenoid, to activate it. As a double check does the voltage on the wire show +12v with the ECM unplugged? It should. It will read +12 because one end of the solenoid is at +12, and there is no current through the solenoid, thus no voltage drop across the solenoid. There is a chance that somehow the solenoid isn't getting the +12 on the other end but since you say you can hear the solenoids click when connecting the transmission plug that is unlikely.
One more thing - when you checked for the +12 on the connector plug, did you do this with the connector plugged into the transmission (and thus the solenoids activated)? You should. Do this key on - engine off - transmission in gear. That way the solenoid is activated. Make sure the +12 is still there. A high resistance splice could give you +12 with the plug connected but it could drop when there is a load on the wire. Backprobe the connector for this test. http://www.enduringautomoti...back-probe-a-sensor/
Yes this is what you should do. My guess - you will see the ECM shift into second when you get fast enough. I say this because this is when you say the transmission freewheels. Thus something must happen when it is supposed to shift into 2nd. That would be the ECM grounding the solenoid. Note also there is no combination of activated/idle solenoids that will give you a freewheeling condition.
Yes I like using the second fan to activate the temp light. The temp light is then running on the same temp sensor as the ECM, The on and off temps for the temp light are programmable. There is no need for an additional sensor that may or may not be on your donor engine. The ECM is more dependable to turn on the light than an electromagnetical temp switch in the head. One less sensor also cleans up the look of the top of the engine.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-06-2014).]
Wire the test bulb in parallel, not series. For each bulb one end should be connected to the +12v, and the other end should be T spliced to the existing wire to the transmission.
0.5v most likely indicates the ECM is grounding the solenoid, to activate it. As a double check does the voltage on the wire show +12v with the ECM unplugged? It should. It will read +12 because one end of the solenoid is at +12, and there is no current through the solenoid, thus no voltage drop across the solenoid. There is a chance that somehow the solenoid isn't getting the +12 on the other end but since you say you can hear the solenoids click when connecting the transmission plug that is unlikely.
One more thing - when you checked for the +12 on the connector plug, did you do this with the connector plugged into the transmission (and thus the solenoids activated)? You should. Do this key on - engine off - transmission in gear. That way the solenoid is activated. Make sure the +12 is still there. A high resistance splice could give you +12 with the plug connected but it could drop when there is a load on the wire. Backprobe the connector for this test. http://www.enduringautomoti...back-probe-a-sensor/
Yes this is what you should do. My guess - you will see the ECM shift into second when you get fast enough. I say this because this is when you say the transmission freewheels. Thus something must happen when it is supposed to shift into 2nd. That would be the ECM grounding the solenoid. Note also there is no combination of activated/idle solenoids that will give you a freewheeling condition.
when I tested for 12v at round 7 for pwr and brake sw. the connector was unplugged. When I was testing the ecu connector, everything was plugged in and backprobed. I see what you are getting at with backprobing the round 7 for a poor 12v connection with the solenoids under load. I'll see how that goes tonight. Atra link is great. that one goes in my book for sure. Thanks for taking the time to help me with this.
For the enlightenment of others here, I could (should?) have bought a harness from phonedawgs but I made it myself because my funds are limited in this build, and he is offering all this support anyways. The time spent helping me, a stranger is really above and beyond what I could expect from anyone here. Hopefully a day comes where I can return the kindness.
took all of my engine to body grounds and re cleaned them, then did the same to my ecm grounds also redoing the solder joints. I show no resistance from any ecu ground unplugged to the ring end of the wire. But, that did not help although my solders are much nicer than before. I tried testing the ecm ground while unplugging sensors and got no change. I still lose my ground at ecm with key on, in fact the case of the ecm, or any ecm ground shows .1v. My ecm ground goes to the transmisssion bellhousing, alone. next bolt over holds ground for isc, trans range, oil pressure, and something else that i forgot and have to untape to find, maybe fuel pump.
One thing I don't have that I just noticed that is on the print is a wired ground for the tan wire o2 sensor, but even unplugged it does not effect the ground at ecm. So that can't be it I don't think.
I guess I just have to start going through every darn wire, I did something wrong, unless a bad ecm could cause that. Could the ecu be doing this to me?
I did go ahead and test the round 7 and backprobing, plugged in key on and got: E 12v, A 12v, F .6v G .6v that does not seem right, but i'm not sure its relevant unless I find the ground issue first.
[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 11-07-2014).]
Well, I'm getting there but I'm confused. I found my ground problem goes away if I take 203m off of ground. Naturally, I assume my speedo buffer was causing it. I took that off, but no change. I'm not really sure what that means. I'm making my solenoid lights right now. This happens whether the ecm is plugged in or not. So I can rule that out for this issue.
Well, I'm getting there but I'm confused. I found my ground problem goes away if I take 203m off of ground. Naturally, I assume my speedo buffer was causing it. I took that off, but no change. I'm not really sure what that means. I'm making my solenoid lights right now. This happens whether the ecm is plugged in or not. So I can rule that out for this issue.
sounds like you really have your work cut out for you sir, i don't envy the task if you need to pick my brain, you have my number
sounds like you really have your work cut out for you sir, i don't envy the task if you need to pick my brain, you have my number
Thanks aaron, I'm sure I can figure this out but I might take you up on that. I need to ammend my diagnosis of ecm though. My very large to ground drops a lot if ecm 2ab is disconnected. I'm going to check every wire in that connector first.
Your transmission solenoids will work at 11.6v, assuming a 12v battery. They for sure will work at 14.1v assuming 14.6v on the + side and 0.6v on the ECM grounded side.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree when you are looking at this as a grounding problem.
Your transmission solenoids will work at 11.6v, assuming a 12v battery. They for sure will work at 14.1v assuming 14.6v on the + side and 0.6v on the ECM grounded side.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree when you are looking at this as a grounding problem.
I'll take that advice. I made my solenoid lights, I've got strange results for sure. Key off they are dimly lit. That's weird. Key on both lights full brightness. This test had 12v applied to lights, grounded at e4 and e10. Lights out if 7round unplugged key off. Lights on 7round unplugged key on, then off after 5s when key turned off. Is that weird or what.
The ECM doesn't turn off till several seconds after you turn the key off. Yep sounds weird but that is how they work. At times the ECM is resetting the Idle Air Control on engines equipped with them. The ECM uses the constant +12v for power. It only monitors the switched +12 to tell it to turn on. So anyways it is normal for you to see the ECM still working for several seconds after you turn the key off.
So you didn't use switched power for your bulb source - that's fine but anything you read with the key off has little meaning.
So when driving when you get up to second gear speed does the ECM drop power to the one solenoid as it should? If so it surely sounds like the problem is internal to the transmision
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-09-2014).]
The ECM doesn't turn off till several seconds after you turn the key off. Yep sounds weird but that is how they work. At times the ECM is resetting the Idle Air Control on engines equipped with them. The ECM uses the constant +12v for power. It only monitors the switched +12 to tell it to turn on. So anyways it is normal for you to see the ECM still working for several seconds after you turn the key off.
So you didn't use switched power for your bulb source - that's fine but anything you read with the key off has little meaning.
So when driving when you get up to second gear speed does the ECM drop power to the one solenoid as it should? If so it surely sounds like the problem is internal to the transmision
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At this point I've done the test. Solenoid commanded correctly to shift by ecu. Shift a drops light but no shift. I'm not feeling great about that right now.
Perhaps stickpony can answer this, if I replace this trans what can I use that will get along with this chip. Same final drive and sensor count? Or only amw
The way I see it if the solenoid was bad the transmission would just stay in 1st when it should be shifting to 2nd. When the PCM deactivates the solenoid, and the light goes out, that is when the transmission goes into freewheel right? That would indicate the ECM is sending the signal, and the solenoid is activating, and if it didn't the tranny's operation wouldn't change.
The way I see it if the solenoid was bad the transmission would just stay in 1st when it should be shifting to 2nd. When the PCM deactivates the solenoid, and the light goes out, that is when the transmission goes into freewheel right? That would indicate the ECM is sending the signal, and the solenoid is activating, and if it didn't the tranny's operation wouldn't change.
I think after taking a few more drives, I wouldn't call it freewheel anymore. What there is not is engine braking. So, engine goes to idle after revving up in 1st. Then to engage again I've got to rev it way back up there again. Felt like freewheel at first. There is no anything felt when shift light goes off.
Why replace the trans? It may only be a bad solenoid. Another trans would be another unknown...
solenoids aren't super expensive, I hear ya but I can find a whole trans that would work with my chip in the later model variant of the 4t60e and a clean pan It's only a little more work to swap the whole thing. my yard only charges $75 or so. It would also be dumb of me to not take a look at the trans sitting here first. I'll pull the side cover and take a peek at the solenoids, It would appear they are stuck or broken, and there are some common problems with them and their bracket. What really makes me lean towards replacing the whole thing is the light clicking I get in P/N and the redesigned sprag in the new ones. I'm super confident I can swap the wiring at round 7 with no problem. I have a pretty good understanding of how this should work after this fiasco.
If you go to a later model that requires the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) TCC control, it will need to be functional. The PWM TCC allows the ECM to control the speed that the TCC locks up. Before that an accumulator in the transmission did that function. So if you try to control a later year PWM TCC with an ECM that doesn't have the function you are going to have issues.
If you go to a later model that requires the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) TCC control, it will need to be functional. The PWM TCC allows the ECM to control the speed that the TCC locks up. Before that an accumulator in the transmission did that function. So if you try to control a later year PWM TCC with an ECM that doesn't have the function you are going to have issues.
All Cadillacs had pwm I thought 91 up? Other 4t60e went without for a while
anybody know if that side cover can fit off without pulling the cradle? I know everyone's different, but it looks close... I'm pretty sure I could drop the rear cradle and make it fit out.
anybody know if that side cover can fit off without pulling the cradle? I know everyone's different, but it looks close... I'm pretty sure I could drop the rear cradle and make it fit out.
If not unbolt the mounts and jack up the tranny a bit.
----- I was backwards there a bit. I was thinking the 91-93 ECM didn't have the PWM TCC and you were perhaps going to put a PWM TCC on it. You are right (and I was wrong) the 91-93 Caddy 4T60E does have PWM TCC.
If for whatever reason you were to want to go with a non-PWM TCC I would think you could get away with a resistor to simulate the TCC solenoid but there may be problems with the ECM thinking it controlled the slip and then the ECM not seeing the slip it thought it should via the RPM vs VSS.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-10-2014).]
my stock exhaust crossover is in the way. 'doh. Also, I had to raise the trans a bit. My back said enough so I'll loosen or remove the crossover tonight and get that side cover off to inspect the solenoids. one of those so close but not enough situations. Anyways I hope I find something wrong in there with a solenoid. Seems the same solenoids through all 4t60e so if my trans is fubar I can use noids on different trans too. Hopefully won't have to deal with that right now.
Originally posted by phonedawgz: If for whatever reason you were to want to go with a non-PWM TCC I would think you could get away with a resistor to simulate the TCC solenoid but there may be problems with the ECM thinking it controlled the slip and then the ECM not seeing the slip it thought it should via the RPM vs VSS.
biggest problem might be converter itself. made of something different, kevlar? for non pwm. Different design from what I read. Loads of information on how pwm is disliked by many. A few see advantage. I plan to keep pwm.
biggest problem might be converter itself. made of something different, kevlar? for non pwm. Different design from what I read. Loads of information on how pwm is disliked by many. A few see advantage. I plan to keep pwm.
call me with your questions bro, i don't get on here much. 561-201-6191
they all tested ok and appear to function with 12v applied. so I kept looking. I really dont know much about transmissions. I read, but have never really gone beyond filters and gaskets. So here I am. When I pulled shift A out a little spring loaded valve was there waiting free in the bore. When I pulled shift B out no rod/valve there by design When I pulld TCC, no rod came out, but I felt it in there. I had to tap it a bunch to get it free. It was stuck applied all the way in the bore.
TCC stuck would not cause my no shift? Based on position, wouldnt that cause a stall instead?
I would bet there are other stuck valves in there. I don't think I can get them out without pulling valve body. Not sure if this trans is worth it. Had some friction goo at the bottom, maybe not the worst I've seen, but maybe its gluing my trans together.
Perhaps a rebuild of your existing transmission to the proper configuration to use with the Cadillac PCM would be your best route forward. Upgraded sprag, friction materials, 3.33 final, 35/35 sprockets and chain........
Perhaps a rebuild of your existing transmission to the proper configuration to use with the Cadillac PCM would be your best route forward. Upgraded sprag, friction materials, 3.33 final, 35/35 sprockets and chain........
Im not sure what you mean about proper configuration, its a cadillac trans with pwm. I had toyed around with the idea of 35/35, the only reason I went without is that I didn't want to take trans apart... go figure. I've been looking at what it would take to rebuild it myself, I bet I could do it but it sure would be a lot easier to find another trans. Cheaper too, If I can find one that is in good shape. Honestly if I was to rebuild a trans I really think it would be smarter for me to do it to a newer model, there are a ton of updates to parts over the span of 91-96. I probably made a mistake with this one, Idk I just don't have a fortune to spend on it.
I was unsure from reading your thread what the trans was from. 3.33 final and 35/35 makes the swap......37/33 and the 3.06 makes for a slug. Save up the money, spend it for a pro rebuild and enjoy your car next year. They know what they are doing and will upgrade the internals to the latest and greatest....with a warranty.
if you need to pick my brain, you have my number
