Well done! You've certainly put a lot of time & energy into your project.
Have you had technical training & experience or is all this from natural mechanical aptitude?

quote Originally posted by David Hambleton: Well done! You've certainly put a lot of time & energy into your project. Have you had technical training & experience or is all this from natural mechanical aptitude?

Thanks! Nope never any training before I started to seriously work on my car, I was a diesel truck mechanic for a summer after I had learned to work on my car a bit, but it was really all brake jobs, oil changes, sway bar bushings, that kind of thing. I learned everything by doing. I threw myself into an engine swap and then into an engine build and just made sure I was careful.

I have been building things for years, but now my car is my main project.

So my future plans are a turbo 3800 built on a custom cradle with custom rear suspension, custom exhaust, custom front suspension. I might do custom knuckles but I am not sure. With the 3800 I will upgrade the brakes again.

In the meantime since all that will take definitely over a year, I am supercharging the 2.8!

I have an eaton m45 I am planning on mounting where the AC would normally be, I may use an intercooler depending on how much boost I am pushing. I bought L36 injectors (22lph) which should do the job, and I am going to swap ecms with a 7730 maybe running the $58 mask for the syclone. I think I am going to stay with distributor ignition.

I want to figure out a way to run the SC off the v belt groove for AC. I do not want to run a V belt, but maybe I could turn the V belt groove off, and machine a ring that would accept a toothed belt and press that on. Then make a SC pulley. This would simplify things a lot as I would not have to figure out how to mount a pulley, and I wouldn't have to deal with extra long serpentine belts and I do not know if the grooved pulley would have the same serpentine pattern as the fiero

Looking on McMaster it appears that I should use a high torque timing belt and pulleys. Hopefully I can find a pulley that I could stick in the lathe and turn the inner diameter to fit over where the V belt was. They are steel so I could weld it on.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-16-2014).]

just read through you intire build.. very nice. tip of the hat to putting time into the 2.8. i'm building a 3.4l turbo currently. so at 132hp how did you feel about the cars performance?

I just read your thread. I really enjoyed seeing all you went through. I admire your tenacity. You saved a Fiero many would have walked away from. Isn't it funny how anything that we know isn't quite right will always come back to bit us later. I have been building cars and bikes for over 50 years and I still have to make myself check and double check before things go together. Try as I might, I still make plenty of mistakes. The trick is to man up and fix them. You have definitely demonstrated that quality. I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. This has been a very interesting read.

------------------
woodys 427

quote Originally posted by ttt123: just read through you intire build.. very nice. tip of the hat to putting time into the 2.8. i'm building a 3.4l turbo currently. so at 132hp how did you feel about the cars performance?

Thanks! At 132 hp it is not slow, it has a pretty flat torque curve so it accelerates nice, actually pushes you back in your seat. A 3.4 turbo would be lots of fun

quote Originally posted by woodyhere: I just read your thread. I really enjoyed seeing all you went through. I admire your tenacity. You saved a Fiero many would have walked away from. Isn't it funny how anything that we know isn't quite right will always come back to bit us later. I have been building cars and bikes for over 50 years and I still have to make myself check and double check before things go together. Try as I might, I still make plenty of mistakes. The trick is to man up and fix them. You have definitely demonstrated that quality. I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. This has been a very interesting read.

Thanks a lot woody, I have learned so much about life working on this Fiero. I can't wait to soon have the funds to really take this car somewhere. I know that I will make sure whatever I do with it is done right from the start no matter what.

I have been working in the real world now out of college I got a job as a Mechanical Engineer and I bought an 03 WRX just like I wanted to. It ended up getting totaled (not my fault thankfully) and I picked up an 02 WRX in much better condition, though both were in good condition.

03 when I got it



It came with a bad turbo because the PO was a total idiot and put all his weight on it which torqued the housing and ruined the turbo.

Replacing the turbo



03 Totalled



New WRX



Now I was in VT (200+ miles from my house) and a timing gear blew up and trashed the motor... So I am currently re-gasketing another motor and doing the timing belt and water pump and whatnot. It was a very expensive tow home.



Doing a couple quick mods to the motor while it is out. I also have forged rods and pistons for a stroker build using the 2.5L crank in the 2.0L engine so that will happen at some point.

But for now I have been doing tons and tons of research and I have decided to go with an Ecotec 2.2 that I will turbo to 400+rwhp

Basically I hope for the Fiero that I can have a wicked fast and well handling car I can totally beat on and take to track days. I also want it to stay relatively cheap because of these goals, I wanted to do a 3800 turbo because if I ever blew it up I would be out 500$ to swap in a new junkyard motor and that is that. VS I've spent north of $2500 on trying to get a running engine in my WRX again. So that meant I was looking for an engine that holds good power stock or close to stock that I don't need to get any machining done on it to mod it if I need to.

Well the 2.2 Ecotec is a very robust motor. All this info is from a GM document.

Swap in performance valve springs from GM and redline increases to North of 7500 RPMS with no machining of the head.

Block and crank and oiling and water pump are all very robust and only need to start being changed past ~700hp

Basically I have to pull off the oil pan, pull the head, replace valve springs, put in new forged pistons and rods, get a headgasket and button it back up and it is done. Probably have to do a quick hone myself while I am in there but that is it. It has huge weight savings over a 3800, almost 200lbs. You really feel that weight in the rear, especially when the rear gets loose. Well I like to drive a loose car and it is scary with all that weight in the rear, decreasing that will allow the car to snap oversteer much more gently and controllable.

Other benefits include that it is very easy to work on, easy to replace pistons and what not while the engine is in the car, and I will be able to do a nice turbo setup without such a cramped engine bay.

I plan on doing a few cool things, I want to buy a W2A core from Bell intercoolers, Corky Bell's company. I can get the core size I need for around $300 and it is amazing quality, as a finished intercooler it could cost north of $700. I plan on building the intercooler into the intake manifold. So one end tank of the intercooler will have the throttle body on it, and the other end will go right into the runners. This should increase throttle response a ton and decrease lag a lot as well, and it will essentially control the temperature of the entire intake manifold. Also with where it is placed in the engine bay it will get lots of cool air from under the car to further help keep temps down. I plan on a log style header to put the turbo right at the transmission, so it has a short boost line to the throttle body that goes over the transmission, and there is where I will incorporate either a BOV or BPV or a hybrid valve.

Here is a sketch to show what I am talking about more clearly:

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-27-2015).]

Won't the intercooler require it's own fresh air source instead of the normally higher temperature air found in the engine compartment?

quote Originally posted by BrittB: Won't the intercooler require it's own fresh air source instead of the normally higher temperature air found in the engine compartment?

It will be a water to air intercooler so it's cooling ability comes from a dedicated coolant source separate from engine coolant. I might ceramic coat the outside to further insulate it from underhood temps.

Anyone selling a Tig that can do aluminum?

Long time no post.

Even though it's my daily driver I can't help but pull my Subie apart pretty frequently. This is a pain, but the car is really solid now with a bunch of performance parts, and I think I can be happy and keep it together for a bit. This opens up time to work on my neglected Fiero.

As it sits, it has no motor as I sold it, the paint has always been garbage, and I cover the car in fluid film before and after every winter. It sits in the driveway under a waterproof but breathable car cover. I also wash it periodically. It looks as though everything has stayed relatively rust free and ready to go.

I have been checking in on the forum periodically, sad to see some good builds pulled out of here.

I had plans to do an Ecotec swap to create a really nice weight balance and lighten up the rear end to get the car to handle really well (custom make front and rear subframes with custom control arms and links with Bilstein shocks springs struts), but with the amount of flaws the Fiero has, and the limited time and resources I have to spend on it, I am going to do a 3800SC L67 swap. It will be much cheaper, much simpler, lots of fun, and I can finally drive my Fiero again. I am going to save a complex build for a Miata or something else very small and LIGHT. The Fiero is a pretty dense car in comparison.


The rest of the car is up to the task with it's larger brakes, full poly, and whatnot already.

I have all new ball joints for it as well and new outer and inner tie rods.


So here are some haphazard thoughts on what has to happen:

• Bumpsteer fix that I designed a while back. A couple members have created the fix I designed/they probably came to similar designs with their own tweaks, and they look very promising.
  
  
• My fuel lines are already rubber and I can move them anywhere in the bay. Will need a bigger fuel pump.
  
  
• I have a Spec stage 2 clutch from my last motor.
  
  
• I have a 4 cyl throttle cable.
  
  
• My current exhaust could easily be modified to bolt to the 3800 stock exhaust.
  
  
• I found a nice looking L67 for $399 with 84,000 miles on it, and it is only 10 miles from my house.
  
  
• I would need to make some motor mounts, for now I will keep the Isuzu with F23 plans for WHEN it blows up.
  
  
• Need a Camaro flywheel to take to my local machine shop
  
  
• For now I will port the supercharger and use a smaller pulley that has been undecided.
  
  
• I will need a tuned PCM, I tune my WRX myself but I don't want to pay for HPTuners (yet)
  
  
• I want to do a low mount alternator, I want to simplify the belt routing, I could put it where the AC compressor would go.
  
  
• I'm going to make a semi permanent coolant crossover that is bolted to the front crossmember of the cradle.
  
  
• I will weld my own Themostat housing to control coolant outlet and make a convenient fill point and utilize some stock Fiero parts, I'm sure I have some thermostats lying around.
  
  
• I will be relocating the battery to the front for weight and to make some space in the bay. Planning on using welding cable for battery terminal wires.
  
  
• I sold my V6 harness, But I think I can make the 4Cyl harness work. I am going to simply splice and heat shrink the harness's as well delete any unneeded wires. And my car is very stripped of all available options so hopefully the harness cleans up well. But I have complete confidence in the my soldering and heat shrinking capabilities, plus custom lengths will be very easy. I am going to figure out a way to label all the wires so I always know what is what if looking for issues.
  
  
• Aftermarket gauges for water temp, oil pressure, and boost will be in order. (MAYBE Air Fuel if I get HP Tuners)
  
  
• I would like to design my own shifter assembly, and make it very tall with short throws, so it is even closer to the steering wheel.

And for kicks I am thinking about reversing the parking brake assembly, grinding off all but one notch, and using that to manually raise the Fiero pop up headlights as I am so sick of heavy motors that always fail, I have gone through so many at this point. Slimmer headlights are also a goal but unrelated to this project. So is a nicer steering wheel.

That is it, I don't see this being a huge financial investment as I have a lot of what I need already. I will keep you guys updated and hopefully within the next month post a pic of the motor I am planning on buying.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 06-08-2017).]

Great thread, great work on all you had done previously.

Hope the new "build" goes great

Thanks! I am more of a perfectionist now than when I built this 4 years ago, luckily I appreciate simplicity more too so hopefully those attributes come together nicely in the upcoming work.

Also I am finally going to get around to re-painting that I always neglected.

Looks like you are in for some work. Enjoy the build it is half the fun and frustration all at the same time.
Just to muddy the waters you might want to look into a good ole fashion V8 option. I know forced induction is all modern and hip but who does not love the rumble of a large displacement V-8. Caddy 4.9s are extremely easy to drop into fieros. They have lots of grunt off the line and decent HP. You can get them pretty much everywhere. I know there is not much you can do to them once you get them in. But for a simple cheap motor upgrade they are a pretty good option.

hey man, fellow masshole here
in the middle of a 3800 swap myself.. being my second swap and 4th fiero I have a ton of spare parts if you're ever in need.

gl, keep us posted.

------------------
87 Fiero GT- 98 L67 swap - (SOLD)
88 Fiero Formula- L67 swap in progress
T-Top 672 of 1252

quote Originally posted by Easy8: Looks like you are in for some work. Enjoy the build it is half the fun and frustration all at the same time. Just to muddy the waters you might want to look into a good ole fashion V8 option. I know forced induction is all modern and hip but who does not love the rumble of a large displacement V-8. Caddy 4.9s are extremely easy to drop into fieros. They have lots of grunt off the line and decent HP. You can get them pretty much everywhere. I know there is not much you can do to them once you get them in. But for a simple cheap motor upgrade they are a pretty good option.

I seriously considered doing a Northstar swap for a while for all the V8 reasons, but I decided against it for my current goals.

quote Originally posted by ignorant prodigy: hey man, fellow masshole here in the middle of a 3800 swap myself.. being my second swap and 4th fiero I have a ton of spare parts if you're ever in need. gl, keep us posted.

I just read through your progress the other day everything is looking great, I would love to come check it out some time and maybe take a look at all the Fiero parts you have too, I am like an hour north of you

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I just read through your progress the other day everything is looking great, I would love to come check it out some time and maybe take a look at all the Fiero parts you have too, I am like an hour north of you

anytime, just send me a PM. would love to meet some locals to shoot the **** with.

Finally beginning to gather information and parts to start an LE5 swap. Found some more pictures of my drivetrain with the final exhaust. Exhaust did not require any modifications to trunk. Motor was pulled as I ended up selling it in 2015.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-12-2020).]

nice keep us posted

I am resurrecting this thread as it is time for some new Fiero work. The poor Fiero has been sitting engineless since 2015, I have had multiple hopes and dreams and plans for the car but none have come to fruition as I have had so many other projects.

On a personal note I ended up separating my shoulder badly snowboarding in 2015. I had a hard time doing much as I never gave myself the downtime to recover properly, and I could not properly use that arm for almost an entire year as a result, really limiting myself. I said enough was enough and decided to really focus on health and activity while I am young, and I have been snowboarding and riding motocross like crazy ever since with a focus in injury prevention so I can continue to do these activities for a long time.

I have mainly been working on my dirtbikes and my WRX for the past several years, without making anything too large of a project. I also bought a 24 seat shuttle bus in September 2020 to turn into an adventure mobile, it is a place to stay when snowboarding, can haul dirtbikes, and tow racecars. Long story short my Fiero has been neglected as my focus has been shifted.

Fast forward and I recently tore my ACL while snowboarding which is a huge bummer, however from a Fiero standpoint it is one of the best things that could have happened. With a brace on I can walk around and do things, so I am fully able to wrench on a car, and I have almost a year long recovery ahead of me before I am cleared to begin snowboarding and dirtbiking again. Instead of being upset that I am missing the snowboarding season and motocross season, I am looking forwards to having a running Fiero again.

This has also happened at an ideal time as my WRX is sitting at 272,000 miles and while it is in good shape, the engine is tired, and it needs some rust repair and paint. It needs a new motor, a bigger turbo, general TLC, and I need another car to drive during the summer/fall to make it happen. So reviving the Fiero and having a summer car will be perfect.

Now for the Fiero plans - I originally wanted to do a 3800 Turbo. However I spent a lot of time drifting my Fiero around in the snow and it loves to snap oversteer. I plan to use my Fiero for autocross and maybe some track days, so it is a priority for me to have it handle, and for that I want it to be as light as possible, especially in the rear. I then decided that an Ecotec with a turbo would work well, but with further investigation it appears that a full turbo system and motor would add enough weight to be at least the weight of the 2.8. I considered an NA Ecotec built to rev, but I just do not think that will be satisfying, it will sound meh, and it will cost a ton.
More recently since I have been stuck on the couch more, I have spent hundreds of hours researching swaps, and I learned that the new 60*V6 motors are awesome.

I am starting an NA LZ9 3900 swap for these reasons:

- It is lighter than the 2.8 by around 50lbs, I believe this makes it lighter than the Iron Duke too
- It will bolt up to my current transmission (will do an F23 eventually) and getting the front motor mount to work is simple
- It makes as much power as the 3800SC does stock, and with a cam, headers, and valvetrain mods to get it to rev higher I believe I can hit at least 300HP. Secondary mods would be lighter and shorter pistons, higher compression, longer forged rods
- Many engine components are similar enough to GM V8 motor components that there is a decent aftermarket available at decent prices
- I can use some Fiero components on it to simplify it/the swap in general and make it lighter
- It will fit well in the engine bay and be relatively easy to work on
- It is a simple motor and my Fiero is all about simple
- It sounds amazing (sound matters!)

My plans include:

- 1988 Fiero flywheel and my Spec Stage 2+ clutch
- 2.8 timing cover, water pump, and alternator (most likely)
- Hot cam from a 3400 using cam bearing spacers and 3400 timing chain and gear
- Stiffer valve springs from an LS
- Pushrods to match
- Custom headers/exhaust I will make
- LZ4 Intake
- 76mm GM V8 cabled throttle body with adapter I will make
- Lightly port heads and intake
- MicroSquirt for engine management
- Add spot calipers for parking brake so I can pass inspection with the intention of upgrading the calipers and rotors down the road (already have Grand Am swap but want lighter calipers and larger rotors)

There are many supporting details that I will leave out, but I am putting together a buy list and I have started to buy things on it. My plan is to build the motor ASAP and then when the weather gets a little nicer I can work on mounting it in the car and wire up the MicroSquirt using a speed density tune. It will be a fun learning opportunity and I will definitely be investing in their autotune software.

Stay tuned, but here are some pics in the meantime.


The Bus



Interior



Current state of dissasembly



Dirtbike things







Replacing leaky fork seals on my girlfriend's GSXR 600

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-23-2021).]

Guess this means I should hop to on the LZ9 header flanges I was drawing... I look forward to seeing the progress, do you already have the engine?

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

nice - good luck.

quote nice - good luck.

Thanks! Let me know if you ever want to come see it, I would love to check out your 3800 too

quote Guess this means I should hop to on the LZ9 header flanges I was drawing... I look forward to seeing the progress, do you already have the engine?

I would buy some header flanges off you for sure, were you planning to swap your 3500 out for a 3900 anytime soon? And I am actually going to pick up a motor tomorrow, I'll post some pics. The yard said it ran excellently before they pulled it out.

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I would buy some header flanges off you for sure, were you planning to swap your 3500 out for a 3900 anytime soon? And I am actually going to pick up a motor tomorrow, I'll post some pics. The yard said it ran excellently before they pulled it out.

Not planning on soon, but still planning. I have a few major hurtles to jump still with the LZ9 before I pull it back out, the biggest being the lack of a performance cam with VVT capability. I have another cradle, so now I just need an engine, and 2 F23's to hybrid so I can make it more of a plug and play swap. I'll keep you in the loop on flanges.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: Not planning on soon, but still planning. I have a few major hurtles to jump still with the LZ9 before I pull it back out, the biggest being the lack of a performance cam with VVT capability. I have another cradle, so now I just need an engine, and 2 F23's to hybrid so I can make it more of a plug and play swap. I'll keep you in the loop on flanges.

Is the VVT capability anything to write home about on the LZ9? My understanding is that it is really more for fuel economy when you are puttering around more than anything, but I haven't looked into it a ton

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: Is the VVT capability anything to write home about on the LZ9? My understanding is that it is really more for fuel economy when you are puttering around more than anything, but I haven't looked into it a ton

I just want the challenge, My MS3 Pro can control it, in fact, I'd likely only need to add 2 wires to use it, and it could lead to shorter spool times, and a broader torque curve.

So far, it looks like my greatest challenge will be to produce a cam blank, I have a buddy who said I can have his stock cam to measure off of, then I can draw it up and make and have it cut from a billet stock.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

I think I have seen people get the stock cam reground, would your specs be too wild to do so on the hollow stock cam?

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: This has also happened at an ideal time as my WRX is sitting at 272,000 miles and while it is in good shape, the engine is tired, and it needs some rust repair and paint. It needs a new motor, a bigger turbo, general TLC... CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

After I bought my '98 JDM Impreza STi and joined NASIOC at the tail end of 2016, I was pleased to see a familiar name there... but then you disappeared. Great to hear you still have your WRX, and glad to hear you're on the road to recovery.

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I think I have seen people get the stock cam reground, would your specs be too wild to do so on the hollow stock cam?

I like big cams, and doing things the really hard way...

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

quote After I bought my '98 JDM Impreza STi and joined NASIOC at the tail end of 2016, I was pleased to see a familiar name there... but then you disappeared. Great to hear you still have your WRX, and glad to hear you're on the road to recovery.

Thanks Patrick! I appreciate NASIOC but I made a few threads on there, one in particular where I swapped my WRX engine and took lots of pictures and did it step by step... and all I got were replies where people were telling me I shouldn't check plug gap with feeler gauges . There was no community compared to here so I stopped posting as it felt like a waste of time. I did some cool stuff too, made some custom tools to replace all the suspension bushings with Group N ones, I made an electrolysis setup powered by a computer power supply to de-rust all the suspension components and brake components and rebuilt all the calipers, made custom AN hose power steering lines, did a partial rebuild of the motor where I resurfaced the heads and block with a calibrated granite block, did a lot of custom bodywork repair, etc. Oh well.

BTW I love the GC STis, I would love to build a USDM version with an EJ207.

quote I like big cams, and doing things the really hard way..

I figured!


And here is the official start of the project



LZ9 from a 2007 Uplander. If I run out of time to make custom headers I can utilize this exhaust in the meantime.

165,000 miles, and the yard said it ran great. It has a Purolator oil filter on it, so someone put some money into its maintenance which is a great sign.

Unfortunately no wiring harness, but I only need the plugs with pigtails, so if anyone has a good source for those let me know.

Stay tuned

PS my company has encouraged me to use the handicap spots due to my injury, but I am parked in some spots that are next to a closed building entrance currently, there are plenty of others closer to the main entrance, as I can imagine I look like an a-hole for taking up three handicap spots

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-25-2021).]

From what I have found, ballenger motorsports has the best combination of price and convenience. There's also EFI connection, and for bulk stuff like pins, Waytek wire, and Mouser.

https://www.bmotorsports.co...ex.php/cPath/109_484

I have a little more work to do on the header flanges, I'm probably going to submit a job to have a laser cut test piece later this week.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I appreciate NASIOC but I made a few threads on there, one in particular where I swapped my WRX engine and took lots of pictures and did it step by step... and all I got were replies where people were telling me I shouldn't check plug gap with feeler gauges . There was no community compared to here so I stopped posting as it felt like a waste of time. I did some cool stuff too...

That's a shame (their loss).... but yeah, I know what you mean. The Subaru platform was all brand new to me, so in my first year at NASIOC, I was asking for advice in regards to pulling the oil pan. I won't say who it was, but one of the members there who seems to have plenty of fanboys gave me incorrect information. If I had followed it, I would've spent untold extra hours under the STi for nothing. Fortunately, I suspected he was mistaken, so I did what actually needed to be done (and not all the extra unnecessary steps he had mentioned). However, I wanted to prevent some other unsuspecting newbie from following the incorrect advice he had given me, so I posted what I had done, complete with pictures... and to be clear, I was posting in a most respectful manner... just trying to be helpful in case anyone else new was wondering how to do this job. I was rather shocked when not only did the guy refuse to believe me, but several other NASIOC members also felt it necessary to comment that I was "crying" and "bitching" on the forum. Yeah, it kind of soured me a bit on NASIOC for awhile... but fortunately, 22 years here at PFF (including time wasted in O/T) has toughened my hide.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-25-2021).]

Thanks ericjon I will have to check that out, and those exhaust ports have a very interesting shape

And yes it is that attitude that made me less active in the NASIOC community but I had a few builds I enjoyed following for sure. Plenty of misinformation on that site.

Got the motor home and on the stand, I checked out the flywheel from my old 2.8 and it matches up with the flexplate that came on the motor perfectly. I will need longer bolts though as the flywheel is significantly thicker than the flexplate. Pictures to confirm their shared features.








I like pulling the center of the stand out and mounting it to the motor and then sliding it back into the stand to reattach it.





Also it seems like I can use the stock Uplander mount and maybe it needs a little modification to bolt to an 88 2.8 motor mount, my motor mount bracket on the cradle is custom and has a large landing area that I may be able to adapt to wherever the 88 mount ends up. I may also just make an entirely new bracket as the Uplander one does not seem incredibly robust but I may try it out to see what I think. Just not sure how I feel about having the oil pan take all those forces, might be fine in a minivan but I am going to drive this quite a bit more aggressively.



By the way, that is a counterweighted flywheel for an 85-87 motor, it has never been resurfaced to my knowledge, and you cannot find them easily anymore, so if anyone needs one let me know, I would let it go cheap, probably not much more than price of shipping.
Edit to say I just placed my order for MicroSquirt with an 8' harness and a USB to serial adapter.

I need to locate a harmonic balancer for the 2.8/3.4 I don't care about the timing marks, and I need to locate the pulley that bolts to it as well. I saw Rodney sells an underdrive one, but I want the regular one to ensure proper coolant flow with the Fiero water pump. I can buy an alternator, timing cover, and water pump no problem.

From looking more closely at the engine, I think I will be able to flip the heads and fit the coolant crossover underneath the throttle body on the flywheel side of the motor. I will need to trim all the excess brackets and whatnot off of it but that is no big deal. I may even be able to make a Fiero styled thermostat housing on it, it made filling the massive coolant system very easy when you could remove the thermostat.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

The port shape has been tuned significantly since that picture was taken, it matches the shape of the ports on the head much closer, but is larger to accommodate a 1.625 or 1.75" pipe.

Are you planning to run a Fiero timing cover? I'm not sure how easy that will be, Shaun did something similar, not the way I would do it, but he made it work. A buddy of mine locally put an LZ9 in his car, but retained the stock ECU and programming, and low mounted the alternator.




I suspect the Uplander mount could be adapted, but I don't think it will be a direct fit, it sits a little more under the oil pan than the stock Fiero mounts do on a 2.8.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

I just looked these engines up on youtube. does sound pretty nice.
The engine mount on the engine is a part of the oil pain? Did I read that right?

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: Are you planning to run a Fiero timing cover? I'm not sure how easy that will be, Shaun did something similar, not the way I would do it, but he made it work. A buddy of mine locally put an LZ9 in his car, but retained the stock ECU and programming, and low mounted the alternator. I suspect the Uplander mount could be adapted, but I don't think it will be a direct fit, it sits a little more under the oil pan than the stock Fiero mounts do on a 2.8.

That is a really clean install, your buddy did a really good job


So my reason for the Fiero timing cover is that it is simpler, smaller, and a little lighter.

The aspect I am not sure of is whether it will work with the stock LZ9 balancer or if I will need a Fiero balancer and pulley. If any of you are able to take a measurement of a Fiero balancer for me that would be very helpful, as I am not totally sure that it will fit on the crank snout, but I think that it will. Measurements I am looking for are the ID, the internal depth, and the OD, all these measurements are for the cylinder that goes over the crank snout, I need to see if the LZ9 pulley/balancer will seal with the 2.8 timing cover, and get an idea if the pulley surface would line up with a Fiero water pump. The OD of the pulley itself would be great too to make sure that if the LZ9 pulley works with Fiero timing cover/ water pump that it is not going to drastically over or under drive everything. I will post all the LZ9 pulley dimensions as well when I pull it off. I would prefer to use the LZ9 pulley if it magically lines up properly. Alternatively if it is minorly misaligned I can get a spacer machined for it, or machine material off of it.

As a backup I could use a 3500 or 3400 timing cover and water pump if the Fiero parts are going to be a pain to get to work. My plan is to put the Fiero alternator in the location of the 3400/3500/3900 water pump using the Fiero timing cover. Nice and low with the weight on the firewall side of the engine. I am kicking around an idea for a very light and simple alternator mount. Every little bit helps the handling and balance.

I don't see any significant downsides to using the Fiero timing cover and water pump, I can't imagine the newer water pumps are significantly more efficient, higher flow is not necessary beneficial, it is all about balancing the rate of heat exchange. Seems like if anything the newer water pumps have gone to a simpler casting with more of the coolant passageways cast into the timing cover.

(Side note that a centrifugal style clutch on a water pump may be a cool mechanical solution to power loss at high RPMs, I am imagining a pulley that can basically start partially disengaging when RPMS get past a threshold, the opposite of a standard centrifugal clutch)

Regardless I do not want to use the LZ9 timing cover as it contains all the VVT jazz, and I am not using the VVT. Yes I could remove it all and make a block off plate where the actuator is, but it is still added complexity and weight with no purpose.

In regards to the Uplander mount, like I was saying my cradle mount "shelf" is custom, it can be seen on page 1 of the build, it sticks out much farther than stock Fiero cradle mount "shelf" so I may be able to drill new holes for it.

However I think a better path forwards would be to make a mounting bracket like 88 Fiero and weld it to the Uplander mount to get the additional mounting points. This would allow me to relocate the engine mount back to factory location with minimal fabrication work. Ignorant Prodigy the Uplander mounting bracket bolts directly to the oil pan and the mount bolts to the bracket. Sketchy IMO but it is a very beefy cast aluminum pan.


The Ballenger motorsports site is great BTW I will be able to make such a clean harness with minimal splices and it won't break the bank.


I will do a search myself but if anyone has a link to the pins that the C500 connector uses that would be great. I sold my V6 harness with the ECU when I sold my motor, but I luckily still have the original 4 cyl harness, but I would like to rewire the critical pins.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

We have quite a bit of work tied up in it, but we're both pretty happy with the overall result. the only real issue we have is with the VSS, the E67 doesn't like the stock Fiero VSS.

The LZx cover has the advantage of using a recirculating water pump, much like the N* or LSx engines use, which warms the engine faster, and more efficiently. as you mentioned the VVT solenoid could be removed and a simple cover made to keep everything sealed. I can't imagine it being heavier than the stock fiero assembly, I also think it's no more complex than the fiero setup. This also has the advantage of using a stock thermostat, from the engine in the car, which makes for less headaches later when you're trying to remember the year/make/model the thermostat came from. I feel like changing the cover affects many other aspects of the swap other than just the cover, which can lead to other headaches, EG: The thermostat is in the waterpump suction on the timing cover, you'll have to make provisions for a thermostat, that don't exist in the LIM like the earlier 60V6 engines.

Personally, I would opt for the 3400/LX9 timing cover over the Fiero cover, it's much more compact, and I can't imagine it being heavier than a Fiero part, in fact, I have my doubts the LZx cover is heavier once you account for the fact that it also incorporates the thermostat housing and alternator bracket.

That's my $0.02, if you have any questions about my thoughts on it, I'll be happy to answer, otherwise I'll table that part of the discussion and let you do you.


The oil pan casting is super beefy, I wouldn't call using the mount sketchy unless you don't have some kind of an anti rotation mount in place, like a dogbone, and even then I'm not sure the term would be fitting.

I don't think the centrifugal clutch idea would work well in an application seeing sustained high RPM operation. a better bet would be a high quality electric pump with PWM control, then flow could be varied to a wide range of operating conditions.

I think I have the C500 pin info, I'll look around. Edit: The terminals are Metri-pack, the medium or large ones are Metri-pack 480's. if you measure the blade of the terminal, that's the #. IE, a metri-pack 480 has a 4.8mm blade.

Ballenger is great! you can get the parts cheaper at placed like Waytek, and Mouser, but minimum qty tends to make the overall cost higher, and the connector kits are way too convenient.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-26-2021).]

Those are some good points but I had some ideas to address them.

I don't know how I feel about the recirculating setup, it seems to favor the cylinders in the front of the motor while leaving the rear cylinders siting in hot coolant once you are at operating temps. I want to fix this by flipping the heads so coolant flows across the motor instead of taking a U-turn. The older motors had oil squirters on just the flywheel side cylinders since they got so much hotter.

The alternator bracket is on the coolant crossover, the upper coolant manifold where the coolant outlet and the coolant fill is, and that also is where the power steering pump bracket is. So I would be able to use the Fiero timing cover and still use the alternator bracket if I wanted to. I do want to do a low mount though, and ideally move it to the firewall side of the motor where the AC compressor was.

I have been thinking of how I want to deal with the thermostat, the Fiero coolant system bleeds easily because you can remove the thermostat. At the same time I have never had issues bleeding a coolant system with a thermostat installed, but they also had way less volume in tubing to the radiator than in a Fiero. I have debated using the stock thermostat and fabricating a remote housing for it where it would also fill from so I can pull it out while I fill the system.

My alternative initial thought was to cut the thermostat housing off of the timing cover and weld it in as the outlet in the coolant crossover. My plan with the crossover was to shave it of all brackets and extra junk and run it on the rear of the motor by flipping the heads. It appears as though it could fit below the throttle body without interfering, and the fill neck would end up in a good location. I would weld up the original outlet and weld the thermostat housing on the opposite side of the crossover so it points at the Fiero driver's side coolant tube. I could still run a recirculating setup that would span the motor if I really wanted to. I think this would be a much better system to ensure the motor cools evenly, and it has the benefit of coolant exiting on the proper side of the motor for a Fiero.

However that was my initial thought as this orientation of the thermostat probably will not work though since I imagine it is designed to be on the inlet and not the outlet. But I could always weld it to the inlet on the Fiero timing cover. Or get tricky and possibly weld it backwards with some additional fab work.

I have a tig welder and I have done a bunch of stainless work but I am itching to get in some aluminum welding.

But really I need to take stuff apart to look at things more and decide, no matter what I do my intention is to retain the stock thermostat. I may end up with the stock timing cover but it is definitely almost double the size of the Fiero timing cover. Maybe it will shave down nicely. Maybe I will get a LX9 timing cover and water pump and thermostat. I will stop spinning my wheels until I can get a good look at the parts and hopefully a good solution will come to me.

This MG thread has some good info on this timing cover topic

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

on the subject of cooling system performance, the earlier 60V6(Pre-LZ9) uses a bypass system, with the water pump drawing suction on the radiator, and discharging to the engine, with a pipe to bypass water from the thermostat, back to the water pump suction.

The LZ9 and similar use a recirculating system, that draws suction on, and discharges to the engine block, with the thermostat on the water pump suction. this moves quite a bit more water in the block, and reduces cylinder to cylinder temperature differences, as well as reduces water pump parasitic losses.

as far as filling the cooling system goes, on my LX9, I take the hose off the bypass pipe where it connects to the water pump, stick a funnel in it, and fill it until coolant comes out of the bypass pipe, fills really fast, and didn't require any special fabrication to make work. then I just start the engine and bleed the cooling system via a high point bleed on the water pump. the removable thermostat may offer some convenience on a stock Fiero, but I don't see any value in it on a swapped car. YRMV.

Edit: I had no idea there was a CW rotation waterpump timing cover like that! I might need to find one of those...

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-26-2021).]

Cool that makes a lot of sense. I didn't even consider how much that would free up the water pump to have an alternate pumping path other than through the heater core, and how that would help balance all the cylinder temps.

Ok well I wrote a novel here on if-this-then-that situations, debating between all my options, and it led me to a great solution that puts the alternator where I wanted it to begin with and leaves me with a short belt routing in the process, and I can build the alternator mount into the motor mount bracket making it multipurpose. So seems like I will be moving forwards with the LZ9 components, and not flip the heads.

Thanks for all the good insights! Leaves me with way less parts to buy.

So my plan is to run a Fiero alternator because it is adequate and will be the simplest to wire up, I don't need the high output of the new one with 0 electronics on board asides from the MicroSquirt. Unless you can talk me into it haha.



Cannot tell if in reality it will work out to enough belt wrap or not, stock 2.8 belt looks around 100-110 degrees of wrap, I think I can add in an idler to the alternator mount and maybe get enough wrap. I don't see an easy way to put alternator on the other side of the motor without an excess of idlers since I have no AC.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]