I was going to wait until I was finished with this project before I posted because I really don't have much time to be in the garage with my 2 year old son running around every day. I also do not have a welder at home =)
It has been 12 months now since I bought a used M90 supercharger for $60. Someone had done a poor port job on it with the rotors still in it! Luckily they did not run it in this condition, as I received it full of metal shavings. The metal shavings of course were in the bearing so I replaced them with some from ZZP performance.
Parts Pics Northstar Throttle Body (TPS, IAC) Won't be using IAC or MAF
Supercharger oil
Rising rate Fuel pressure regulator
My engine before I started
Intake duct removed
Traced intake manifold gasket
Figuring out base plate to intake manifold. At this time I was unsure if I could blow through the existing throttle body. I decided against it.
Duct pan for bypass valve if I decide to use the valve.
Sitting 1/8" above coil
3100 CS130 Alternator installed
Nose bracket installed
Drive belt installed
Northstar throttle body mock up
I will end up making an adapter plate for the Supercharter inlet welded to a short piece of tubing, then welded to an adapter plate for the northstar throttle body.
[This message has been edited by arte444 (edited 10-28-2012).]
Northstar Throttle Body (TPS, IAC) Won't be using IAC or MAF
Duct pan for bypass valve if I decide to use the valve.
Nose bracket installed
Would you be willing to send the Northstar MAF my way?
You *WILL* need the bypass valve for a street car. The supercharger will run a constant pressure difference and will get very hot due to its inefficiency if you don't run a bypass.
My gut feeling is that you'll need a more substantial nose bracket.
Would you be willing to send the Northstar MAF my way?
You *WILL* need the bypass valve for a street car. The supercharger will run a constant pressure difference and will get very hot due to its inefficiency if you don't run a bypass.
My gut feeling is that you'll need a more substantial nose bracket.
I like this install but have a few comments. An M90 supercharger is only 90 cubic inches displacement and was designed for a 3800. (231 C.I.) . Here the same supercharger is being used on a 300 cubic inch engine. Will it be efficient? How many pounds of boost will it put out? In either case it has to improve the horsepower that the engine now makes. The other item is the ECM. You would have to go into the program and move the main timing table to the right by a factor of two then split it into vacuum and boost sections, then come up with a two bar map scaling sequence. It can be done but its tricky. The other item is the BOV. Have been running my 3800SC install for three years without one, and have expereinced no ill effects. The supercharger may run slightly warmer under idle, sharp decelleration or under certain part throttle conditions but it seems as warm to the touch as any other that I've handled. I am of the impression that it was there mainly to reduce noise. Will may be right but I am not certain to what degree.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I like this install but have a few comments. An M90 supercharger is only 90 cubic inches displacement and was designed for a 3800. (231 C.I.) . Here the same supercharger is being used on a 300 cubic inch engine. Will it be efficient? How many pounds of boost will it put out? In either case it has to improve the horsepower that the engine now makes. The other item is the ECM. You would have to go into the program and move the main timing table to the right by a factor of two then split it into vacuum and boost sections, then come up with a two bar map scaling sequence. It can be done but its tricky.
90 ci per revolution up to 12,000 RPM MFG's recommended redline RPM = 1,080,000 ci/min 150 ci/rev up to 5000 RPM = 750,000 ci/min 1.080/0.750 = 1.44 1.44 * 15 psi = 21.6 psi - 15 psi = 6.6 psi. The blower should be able to push 6-7 psi without difficulty. That's not accounting for inefficiency, so the actual boost at that flow rate will be higher due to temp rise through the blower.
He should be able to run a '749 with $58 in 8 cylinder mode or a '730 with the aftermarket "boosted $8D" code without difficulty. Although both will require extensive tuning, that's not nearly as big a deal as trying to rescale the load tables in the stock ECM.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The other item is the BOV. Have been running my 3800SC install for three years without one, and have expereinced no ill effects. The supercharger may run slightly warmer under idle, sharp decelleration or under certain part throttle conditions but it seems as warm to the touch as any other that I've handled. I am of the impression that it was there mainly to reduce noise. Will may be right but I am not certain to what degree.
Get an infrared/laser thermometer and take some measurements.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-30-2012).]
An M90 supercharger is only 90 cubic inches displacement and was designed for a 3800. (231 C.I.) . Here the same supercharger is being used on a 300 cubic inch engine.
EDIT: mis-spoke about the working of a Roots-type blower.
Engine displacement is hardly the only considerationto to make. Volumetric efficiency is a qauntification of actual airflow for the geomtric displacement. Given reasonable AFRs and a normal BSFC, any given engine will pump as much air as the power it produces. a 3800NA vs a 4.9L, stock for stock, make relativily the same amount of power, reqiuring a similar amount of airflow. Seeing as these engines are from the same era of GM design, I doubt one is much more effiecient at burning fuel, so if they both produce 185-200hp in NA form, they should both reqiure a similar amount of air at the same AFRs.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 10-30-2012).]
Wow. I really would like to do this myself with my 4.9..I got a nice ported M90 with MPS and a N* TB sitting in my basement workbench. I would really like to mill out the intake and just bolt it there, but the damn distributor is in the way. Watching this closely.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 11-05-2012).]
I believe I have it correct in the mock up. The side with all the carbon sludge build up should be towards the air filter.
The dirty/carbon side of a TB is toward the engine with the N*/4.9/3800 like this. You do in fact have it back-words and upside down. The IAC wouldn't function as it sits, because it's not against the engine. Plus I don't think it would seal either.
An M90 supercharger is only 90 cubic inches displacement and was designed for a 3800. (231 C.I.) . Here the same supercharger is being used on a 300 cubic inch engine.
Lets not forget that before the M90 came out on the series II 3800.... the 3.8 was boosted by the M62 supercharger .... if you do the math The M90 is almost 50 percent bigger than the M62.... yet the 4.9 is less than 30 percent bigger than a 3.8
So if an M62 could boost a 3.8.... then an M90 will be just fine for a 4.9
The other item is the ECM. You would have to go into the program and move the main timing table to the right by a factor of two then split it into vacuum and boost sections, then come up with a two bar map scaling sequence. It can be done but its tricky.
Why not leave the ECM alone.... The stock ECM does a perfect job of running the engine when not boosted.
When you floor it.... thats when boost occurs and thats when you need extra fuel and less ignition advance....
Just use a rising rate fuel regulator. This will give the extra fuel needed proportional to boost ... as long as boost doesn't exceed 8 psi this works fine. a 6 to 1 ratio regulator is what you want... and make sure you have a fuel pump with a higher pressure capacity (like one for a 1997 vortec truck)
And an MSD 5462 box to control ignition timing proportional to boost
Thats all you need
Leave the ecm tuning stuff to the import nerds
[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 02-21-2013).]
Lets not forget that before the M90 came out on the series II 3800.... the 3.8 was boosted by the M62 supercharger .... if you do the math The M90 is almost 50 percent bigger than the M62.... yet the 4.9 is less than 30 percent bigger than a 3.8
So if an M62 could boost a 3.8.... then an M90 will be just fine for a 4.9
I agree, however that M62 was making alot of heat and had a pretty small pulley on it from the factory, at least compared to the M90's 3.8" pulley.
I agree, however that M62 was making alot of heat and had a pretty small pulley on it from the factory, at least compared to the M90's 3.8" pulley.
That is true... But the M90 is a newer more efficient design (less heat) .... And the Gen 5 M90 (found on 2004 and newer grand prix) is even more efficient (and that is what I am using on my build )
Keep your head up my friend I have spent 8 years amassing the parts and such just to put in a 350 lol. Now that I'm going bald from all the stress and have basically all I need I'm sidetracked because now I have to build a garage in the spring to house all my crap and the driveway is too steep at my new place to do the swap!
I believe I have it correct in the mock up. The side with all the carbon sludge build up should be towards the air filter.
It is upside down and backwards. The flange with three screw holes secures the integrated MAF, which is upstream of the throttle.
You're also missing half of it. There's another casting that bolts between what you have and the Cadillac manifold. That other part is necessary in order to seal the idle air passages.
I have video of it running but something is still goofed up so its pretty boring. It's stuck at 2500rpm with the throttle plate closed and running really rich.
I do not have the throttle body gasketed which is probably most of the issue, I am getting -20 vacuum at 2500rpm.
I'll see if I have time to fix and make a proper video tomorrow.
Awesome to here yours is running also! .... looking forward to seeing your video!
Running rich?.... make sure your map sensor is connected to vacuum.... preferably at the inlet side of the supercharger (more vacuum there and no boost ) .... a vacuum leak will also cause the map sensor to get a wrong reading and will cause the ecm to run rich.
... You want to connect all your vacuum operated stuff ( fuel regulator, brake booster, map sensor, etc) .... to the inlet side of the supercharger.)
The only items you would want to connect to the outlet side of the supercharger ( the lower manifold) would be the rising rate regulator, msd boost timing box, and/or boost guage.
If you plan on reprogramming the ecm ( and not use the msd and r.r.r. ) then you would want to use a 2 bar map sensor ( a map sensor that can read vacuum and boost ) .... in that case you would want to port it from the lower manifold.
.... Im not sure if the stock cadillac ecm can be programmed to read a 2 bar map sensor...
PBJ.... ( the guy that successfully turboed a 4.9) ... used a different ecm ... one from a GMC cyclone, if I remember correctly.
I noticed that your belt tensioner is on the leading side of the blower. This should be avoided. The tensioner should always be placed "behind" all high load items (A/C compressor, Blower, Alternator) as it is meant to take up any slack on the back end. With the tensioner placed in front of the blower, any belt tension rise produced by the blower will compress the tensioner spring, causing the back end of the belt to loosen up and slip. Hope this makes sense.
