You know whats funny? Bobby Starcher & I came up with the metal timing cover way back in 2001 when we were working on Garth's LQ1 swapped 87. Nice to see it put to use all these years later!
I'm not totally sure I'm going to use it just yet. I still have a plastic one in great shape. I bought this metal one from someone 9 years ago, I had it made 1/4" thick to help support idler pulleys for a supercharged LQ1 that never happened. I'd rather it was 1/8" thick for this application. I could have a new one laser or waterjet cut, but I'm a bit on the fence about it at the moment. The 1/4" one doesn't seal correctly to the upper timing sprocket covers without modification, and it just barely clears the belt. It still looks pretty though, but it is SO overkill.
I was wondering why yours was so thick. We used some foam rubber on ours where it meets the engine. Its been in use for 12yrs and 60k miles. We kinda had to come up wih something when the dog bone attachment broke the mount for the original pwr steering. We also relocated the dogbone down by the oil filter. Worked out pretty well.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 05-23-2013).]
With the buildup of the engine nearly complete, I decided that I would forego the clutch and just assemble the engine and transmission and get to work on all the remaining stuff, mostly the smaller diameter plumbing that needed to be done.
Engine and transmission mated, without the clutch.
Landed on the cradle, Naked
Add clothing
I have got to say, When It's put together, its sheer beauty is reason enough to keep me plugging away at it
Now, with things back to their assembled state, I can begin working again. First up, fuel lines. I started out with some 3/8" stainless tube, and after a couple of practice runs, I managed to bang out two fuel lines that navigate over the top of the turbo inlet. When I was happy with them, I welded on the stubs from the original fuel lines that go into the fuel rail.
This is one of the more difficult types of welds that I've been doing. Its two VERY thin wall tubes, and they are being welded with a 1979, 700 LB 310 amp TIG machine, and yet, it's so incredibly accurate. It is a challenge though to keep the torch from blowing holes in these super thin tubes.
I also made some vacuum lines out of this same stainless 3/8" tube to operate the BOV and the PCV, a nice "T" weld was needed.
It'll go something like this...
Looking for a way to secure the fuel lines, I took advantage of my Shifter cable/turbo support bracket to now also hold the fuel lines, So I milled out a small block of aluminum to hold them in place.
Secured nicely!
I really love when I have the opportunity to turn a part in the lathe, and I found just that opportunity in plugging the cam position sensor hole. I loaded a piece of aluminum stock in the lathe, and just started turning away, mimicking many of the dimensions of the original sensor.
I then cut it off, turned it around and did some finishing work
All done
At this point, I turned my attention to both the turbo's water cooling lines, and the wastegate's water lines as well. Water cooling the wastegate according to the Tial, is optional on street applications, but recommended for racing applications. I figured what the heck, if I can find a nice way to do it, I would.
The 3.4 DOHC has a strange feature of its cooling system. It has a hot water outlet port from the thermostat cavity that directly feeds the throttle body in the intake manifold, and then dumps it back into the water pump inlet neck. What's strange about it, is that it closes off as the thermostat opens. Presumably it just allows water flow to circulate around the engine loop till it is up to temperature, then the thermostat opens, it will only circulate through the radiator. I decided, that since I would have had to rework the dump line from the intake back to the water pump inlet neck. That I would instead re-purpose it by running it through the turbo and wastegate In parallel, then dump it back into the pump inlet neck. I would then modify the thermostat so that it can no longer cut off the circulation to the throttle body.
So I changed out the 3/4" throttle body water line for a 1/2" fitting, and I put a better heater core barb on the intake outlet. They don't interfere with each other this way.
You may want to take a peak at Robertissar('s) nast1 8F code on the 60 degree forum for some more ideas. I haven't given it a try yet but it has higher resolution VE tables up to about 8200 rpm. I'm getting ready to switch back to code59 since I'm still having problems with spark blowout using code 8F that I don't believe I ever experienced with code59 when the compression was a little higher than it is currently. It could be something in the code but I have not been able to find it.
Thanks! I've been watching some of his stuff, I like his work.
To your problem, my understanding is that this is not possible. The Ignition Control module interfaces directly with the crank sensor, and the computer only feeds it info on varying the timing a bit. The ECM cannot kill the spark to the best of my knowledge, only control it's timing. Even then, any timing issue will show up in the ALDL. Try monitoring L003D, Bit 3. If it goes high, all fuel is shut off, It's triggered by: Over-rev, Over-speed, VATS and Over-boost. If it's just breaking up, it could be a multitude of other things. Figured I'd throw something out for you to check.
Thanks! I've been watching some of his stuff, I like his work.
To your problem, my understanding is that this is not possible. The Ignition Control module interfaces directly with the crank sensor, and the computer only feeds it info on varying the timing a bit. The ECM cannot kill the spark to the best of my knowledge, only control it's timing. Even then, any timing issue will show up in the ALDL. Try monitoring L003D, Bit 3. If it goes high, all fuel is shut off, It's triggered by: Over-rev, Over-speed, VATS and Over-boost. If it's just breaking up, it could be a multitude of other things. Figured I'd throw something out for you to check.
Actually it appears it is so far. Robertissar teased out about 5 dwell related tables in my XDF and I adjusted two of them a little. Whether they work or not is hard to say as the day before I adjusted them the car ran as high as 9 psi, but that was with mild throttle input and below 4000 rpm after I installed the OE coils in the stock location compared to the MSD coils in a cooler location. After I made the adjustment the car again went to 9 ish psi with more aggressive throttle input but I could feel a little break up.
I delayed the alky injection a little more and hit 10.3 psi without any break up or blowout and it appears the alcohol injection may have been behind some of the blowout although I believe it was set to activate at appx 7 psi. I'll have to check but I suspect it doesn't kick in until 8 psi now. I'm also running a little more timing than I was able to previously with the blowout problem which is another sign that something between the changes has cleared up the blowout as I have not had it since the changes even with more timing and boost and above 4400 rpm. Normally it would blowout around 3500 rpm.
The dwell is determined based on certain inputs as I had previously read some months ago in a GM document so adjusting them to make a calculation during a more demanding load I suspect would help.
You guys are so far ahead of me on the technical end of this that the only thing I can contribute/say is HOLY COW! that thing is sure pretty. Congratulations, I think that I would want it in my living room so that I could look at it more often.
been working on the turbo/wastegate water lines. I took my two water line kits, which were banjo fittings with 3/8" tubing. I cut the tubes down to about an inch, and welded on 4AN fittings to them. Once that was done, I went ahead and bent up some 1/2" stainless tube to get the water to and from where it needed to go. I drilled the opposite side of the banjo's to 3/8" and welded the new 1/2" tubes to them.
The two 4AN fittings will each go to the wastegate. This way the water flow coming out of the throttle body will divide and either go to the turbo or the wastegate, and then rejoin and head back to the water pump inlet neck. The two hoses to connect the turbo water lines to the wastegate are on order, and should be delivered later on today. I also took one of the banjo fittings off the wastegate and cut off the 1/4" barb, drilled it out to an "R" drill, and tapped it with a 1/8" NPT, so I could screw in a stone filter, as this port will be atmospheric in this build.
I took the original throttle body return tube and cut it in half, then folded the edges down with a pair of pliars to close the opening down to 1/2". I welded a 1/2" stainless 90 bend and used a brass compression coupler to join the turbo water drain to this connection. I only put the coupler there for convenience reasons. Once the two hoses come in, I can say that the water lines are now complete.
Next on my list was the two O2 sensor bungs. One heated narrow band, and one Wide band. This was about as simple as it gets. I picked my location, just downstream of the turbo, slightly on the inside of the bend (because it's probably a little cooler there) and used a 7/8" hole saw, and slipped my two bungs in, and TIG'd them in place. I also ran a thread chaser through to clean up any distortion that may have been caused in the welding process.
Lately I've been putting a lot of thought into how I am going to do my breather/oil vapor recovery system. I am seriously considering integrating the turbo drain into that system too. It's been racking my mind a bit, mainly because I'm just about completely out of space. This swap is the tightest fit thing you can imagine, it's up to the point where I can say that I just don't have any place to put anything else. But nonetheless, I will seek a functionally convenient spot to put this device I have to design and build.
The reason I speak of integrating the turbo oil drain system is simple. Most people screw up their oil drains because they forget what is actually coming out of their turbo isn't really oil, it's mostly just air, and of course some finely misted oil, and a reasonable amount of hot liquid oil. The turbo has above atmospheric pressure going into every hole except the air inlet, and hopefully the oil outlet. So a bit of air coming out of the oil drain is expected. This air bleeds in through the seals, which helps keep the oil from going out those seals. So it is important that this air has little to no restriction on it.
This is the sole reason you should never have your turbo oil drain go into the oil pan below the level of the oil. All the air coming out of the drain would be restricted by the oil blocking its path. It would have to blow bubbles in the oil to drain correctly. This Is too much of a restriction. If the air was bled off right below the turbo, then the oil actually can be plumbed in below the oil level in the pan, and it would be okay. Not that this is my goal, I already come in above the oil level.
I am considering this concept of venting this turbo drain air directly from the turbo into an air/oil separator, that drains back the liquid to the oil pan. Also doing the same to the engine from a valve cover. Then I can just let the turbo's oil drain separately directly to the oil pan naturally by gravity. This will increase my drain lines capacity greatly by removing the airflow from it.
I've never heard of anyone doing this type of arrangement, but I see merits to be had, and it really isn't too difficult. But it's all theory till I actually build it, or for that matter even decide to go this route.
I got my wastegate water feed lines and installed them the other day, I'm pretty happy with them, but I will need a 90 degree swivel adaptor on one end of one of the lines. The bend radius was a little too sharp for my liking. But it looks good so far.
After much debate (in my head) I finally came up with a vapor recovery/breather tank design that not only am I pleased about, but that I will be making from scratch, with things I have on the shelf, So it will be cheap.
One of my priorities was to make it with a cover that is removable. I did a little layout in Autocad, and using the dimensions it kicked out. I milled the cover pieces out. This is the first time I have used my rotary table to do curved milling, and much to my surprise, it went extremely well!
I designed this cover to be used on the end of a short piece of 3" boost tube I had laying around from another project.
I found my spot to put it too, It's going to be wedged between the cruise control servo, and the boost pipe coming out of the turbo. Seems like the last spot I can fit something up high. I will try to find a way to allow it to drain into the oil pan. Possibly use the oil level sensor hole? I don't know just yet.
And another thing I had to do, was to come up with a Fiero slave to F40/F23 adapter. That didn't turn out to be that difficult at all. I might make a batch of these if I have time.
i ran across this while looking for easyish upgrades to my 95 LQ1.
you've actually gotten most of my long-term goals done already(F40 + turbo), i keep forgetting that when it comes to building engines that will fit transversely, the fiero guys tend to get stuff done.
After much debate (in my head) I finally came up with a vapor recovery/breather tank design that not only am I pleased about, but that I will be making from scratch, with things I have on the shelf, So it will be cheap.
One of my priorities was to make it with a cover that is removable. I did a little layout in Autocad, and using the dimensions it kicked out. I milled the cover pieces out. This is the first time I have used my rotary table to do curved milling, and much to my surprise, it went extremely well!
First up is my mill. It's a relatively cheap benchtop mill, Bolton Tools ZX45. Since it is not a Knee mill, the whole head is able to be raised and lowered as needed (at the expense of my arms). I have a rotary table and a mouting vice and various collets, chucks and endmills.
i ran across this while looking for easyish upgrades to my 95 LQ1.
you've actually gotten most of my long-term goals done already(F40 + turbo), i keep forgetting that when it comes to building engines that will fit transversely, the fiero guys tend to get stuff done.
yeah, i've always been interested in GM's not-quite-ferrari, but very few that aren't basketcases around me... i don't want to step into a new platform with no idea of how it's supposed to look/act.
i guess to keep this post on-topic, Fierobsessed: seems you're handy with the 6811, should you want any already debugged code for anything that i've already published for nAst1(or the 8F w/nAst1 table patch i released to the TGPforums a while ago), let me know. i eventually release everything publically, but it tends to lag behind when i post official patches.
Great! Honestly I owe you quite a bit of thanks for the TPRT V5 definitions, and a few other odds and ends of yours that make the use of $8F code of quite a bit better for my build. I fully intend to do a full release of my own data, Including the pinouts and the calibration file, and the patches I created (admittedly added to your TPRT V5 Def). But I too lag behind getting these things out because I do not like to release anything that I feel is incomplete.
I would consider myself fluent in 6811. BUT I've NEVER worked in assembly, I've only dealt with machine code to this point. I still love to write machine code for added functionality. I reserve some space between the cal's and the code (usually L9000-LA000) for my own personal playground. Add a few jumps, re-address re-size and re-scale some tables, and I'm having fun with it. In my studies of the ECM, my goal was to obtain control of every pin available, And once I had that figured out, it was all over. Wish I could find a picture of my ECM test box that I made something like 8 years ago. Really useful tool.
The clutch pressure plate saga continues... After two months since I sent it back to Clutchnet to correct manufacturing defects. I finally got it back in my hands. One look, and I can say that there is NO WAY that thing is going in my car. The fulcrum retention ring isn't fully seated all the way around, and one of the tabs that hold it was broken off. What a piece of ****. I guess I'll have to give Spec a call. No one really complains about their pressure plates. Now, Clutchnet's discs are on the other hand, are quite nice. So, that's what it's going to be. I just hope I can get my money back for a pressure plate that I could never use. I'm still out return shipping, possibly twice. Totally unacceptable bull****.
On the upside, i've got a whole bunch of NPT weld on bungs and other connection stuff ordered and on the way to help build the vent/oil seperator system, and also an AN fitting for the EGR feed, which will come off the crossover.
I also really need to start putting some thought into a heat shield system to protect the wiring, the compressor housing and the intercooler from the heat coming off the crossover. I have header wrap, but I have a feeling a trip to the pick and pull for a donor crossover to get a heat shield is in order...
Pic of the pressure plate as it arrived yesterday, you see what looks like a burn mark on the fulcrum retention tab?
This is what it looks like on the other side. Junk!!!
In other news...
I removed the compression fitting I was using to join these two pipes, and welded them instead. Figured out that there was no advantage to being able to separate them.
Then I broke out my pure 1/8" tungsten, ground it to a point, then scorched it, torch negative till it was nicely balled up... Set the welder to A/C, Continuous HF, and got back into the groove of welding aluminum.
My first task was to add a 3/8" NPT bung to the turbo discharge pipe before the intercooler, and one to the post intercooler pipe just before the throttle body. Each of these are for IAT sensors to determine intercooler efficiency, and the later sensor will also handle fuel calibrations. It took me a little bit to get back into the welding mode of welding aluminum. I got so used to working with stainless that I truly forgot how aluminum looks and behaves. But towards the end, I was absolutely back into it.
I also picked up a 45 degree 4" hose for my air inlet to filter. I needed to add this and a stainless pipe to allow me a place to mount my filters IAT (for ambient) and also the vent back from the oil separator. It tucks the filter down away from the heat a bit better too. But it is really close to the shift linkage.
Since I was all setup for aluminum, the next task was to close the bottom of my oil separator tank. I cut a piece of aluminum in the lathe to fit inside the pipe, and welded it on.
Then I started working on the cap, I needed to add a sealing groove to it in order to stuff an O-ring in place, I modified a 1/8" parting blade for this task.
This seems like the only likely place I will have room for this separator. It will stand up vertically, right near the relay mount by the fuel fill. Conveniently, This isn't far from the intake neck, or the valve cover which will have the breather barb, and it's high up, so oil drainage should be no problem.
I'm still debating on having the turbo drain T into the oil separator to alleviate the air pressure that comes out of there. That's pretty close by too. I don't see any disadvantages to doing that, other then another added pipe/hose/tube to the huge pile of them that I've made already.
It's become really clear to me that putting a turbo on a motor is a really REALLY complicated, and expensive proposition. But hey, at least it's getting closer to wrapping up... I think....
I know I still have to build the water lines for the intercooler, mount the FMHE and pump, put the fuel pump in, adjust my fuel lines to fit the new locations, and a few other odds and ends.
[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 06-16-2013).]
Well, I went and did what I really didn't want to do, but absolutely had to do. I dropped the tank.
It was 7 months since I had the car running, so I had no idea how much fuel was in it. I will never, ever again drop a tank without draining it out completely. It was a bit of a mess.
My car is at a custom exhaust shop getting your exhaust fitted. These guys do a lot of high end work. You know what they said about your exhaust?
"This is by far the nicest home-built custom exhaust we have ever seen". "You sure this isn't an actual Borla exhaust"? if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is!
Wow! That is a heck of a compliment! Honestly, I'm just happy that you are satisfied. When it's all said and done, I'd love to see a video and hear it. I have no clue how it will sound, I just hope its mellow. I yelled through that muffler and was impressed at how much sound it cut down. Clearly, it flows very well too!
Any way, Starting things off with a top shot.
When I powder coated the valve covers, I kind of forgot that I needed to add a breather. So I went online looking for a 3/4" bulkhead barb, and found that it is a common part used as a boat's bilge pump exit. So I picked one up. Bonus, It's stainless! It was a bit wide at the flange 1-3/4". So I put it in the lathe, cut it down to 1-3/8" and drilled a 1" hole in the valve cover. slipped the seal in, and passed the fitting through and secured it with the nut. This worked out well! I didn't have to disturb the powder coating by any kind of welding. It also cleared the spark plug holes, and it appears that it will clear the brake vacuum supply, I can always adjust its exit angle.
I got my 4AN 90 swivel today too, so that allowed me to adjust the wastegate cooling lines to a much more appropriate orientation where the bend radii are much better.
I also started working on my fuel tank lines. I've always hated the hose clamped lines at the tank, so I went ahead and added a couple of push connects to the tank. This way I can use the high pressure nylon lines instead of metal lines for the fuel. Just so long as they are well protected, they will last forever, and are much easier to work with, at least once you get the ends on! I scavenged the plastic fuel lines from a 4th gen Firebird. I welded on the little ends that I cut off of some fuel rails.
I also put the quick connects on my fuel lines going to the fuel rail. I just need to find a place to put the fuel filter, and get the lines all fitted.
Its sounds crazy good!! It doesnt have that typical 3800 tractor sound. It sounds a lot like an old flat-plane crank Ferrari. Its an odd but pleasant sound. Oh yeah, no adjustments were needed to fit it. The only part that was cut and welded was the J pipe that goes from the flex joint to my downpipe. Success!
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 06-19-2013).]
That sounds incredible! What kind of tips were used? Also this build is crazy! I am super impressed with the packaging! It could look factory if it wasn't all turned up to 11!
That sounds incredible! What kind of tips were used? Also this build is crazy! I am super impressed with the packaging! It could look factory if it wasn't all turned up to 11!
Thanks, I love it. Nobody can believe its not a Borla built exhaust. They all say its too nice for a "garage build". I keep telling Fierobsessed he could start making these for members! Anyway, this is the only mention I found of the tips.
Wow well that is the best sounding 3800 I have ever heard. Yea I did not see what kind of tips they were when I was reading through the thread the first time. The muffler is a borla XR-1. I am deciding between it and a borla XS Pro which is supposed to be a little quieter. Also my car is NA so it will be louder than your turbo car so maybe the XS Pro is the way to go
Tips: "Vibrant Weld-On Dual Outlet Exhaust Tip - 2.5" In x Dual 3.5" Angle Cut Tips (1333)"
Good news, I ordered a new pressure plate. I got one from Spec, part number SCC-883, which is a Stage 3 kit's pressure plate. According to Spec's David Norton, it is a static 2,350-2,400 lb plate, which, I believe should be right around 50% more then stock, and should hold mid-460's lb-ft with the stage 3 disc. I am using my Clutchnet disc with Spec's pressure plate. I really like Clutchnet's disc, I just don't think I'd ever buy anything other then those from them at this point. I'm going to do what I can to get my money back on Clutchnet's pressure plate, which at the end of the day, should just about cover the cost of the Spec pressure plate. If I can pry the money out of their hands...
I also got started on fitting the Front Mount Heat Exchanger. It has turned ugly. I only hope I can Macguyver that sucker in place. I haven't seen too many threads on FMHE installations. I'm curious as to what others have done. My problem is that the heat exchanger didn't fit between the frame rails with the radiator cap/neck that it has. I had to cut it off. Now things seem to be fitting better. My concern is that it now completely blocks all airflow to the condensor and the radiator. Has anyone had issues with this? What size FMHE's do others run anyway?
What does your heat exchanger look like? My heat exchanger has its inlet and outlet on one end as is intended for a remote filler location. It is mounted to the metal impact bumper support via two tabs at the top of the exchanger and stands perpendicular to the ground instead of angled and does not appear to interfere with A/C performance as far as I can tell. I did cut the ends off the two frame rails that extend a little forward of the bumper support to clear it.
If your car is lowered you have to take that into account, I initially had it attached a little further back to the support which raises it a little higher for ground clearance in a lowered car but after bringing the ride height up I was able to attach it to the forward portion of the bumper mount lower lip so that more surface area was exposed to on coming air.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-25-2013).]
I cannot open the top cap either so I mounted the fill tank higher than the exchanger. I also plumbed the flow to enter the bottom of the exchanger and out the top to avoid air pockets.
I can see you would have to be a bit more creative with a condenser mounted there too.
The ports are on opposite sides, 3/4" pretty much centered. end tank to end tank is 27.25" but the cap and filler overhung an additional 1/2" which made the intercooler not fit within the frame rails. I cut off the filler/cap, and I intend to make it remote mounted where I can fill it from above. I will make it T into the cars existing coolant reservoir for overflow and recovery.
I found that once I removed the shroud ducting from between the radiator and the condenser, and cut off the upper half of the FMHE's mounting tabs, that the FMHE slipped right in. It almost completely seals up the entire opening for the condenser and the radiator. This is where I am concerned; Will my A/C suffer? Will the engine cool off when the fan kicks on?
This weekends forecast is... 117ºF Litterally, no crap I am not kidding, it is going to be THAT hot in Vegas. Welcome to July.
Anyway, here's what it looks like in place:
Perhaps, all I need is a good fan, Maybe the stock one is plenty enough? Or, perhaps it's going to cause so much trouble that the car will overheat? I've never had overheating issues with this engine before. I have a stock replacement V6 radiator and fan in it. And just maybe I'm paranoid, and making a big deal out of nothing.
At least the air dam will be shoving air directly through the FMHE.
Thoughts?
I attacked another small but important task, the dipstick. The original dipstick would have hit the decklid, and probably the window sill. After some scouting in the Pic-A-Part, I grabbed a Camaro 3.8L dipstick. I straightened it out using the flat jaws of the milling machine vise, then gave it careful long radius arcs using a 1/2" EMT conduit bender as a guide This way the dipstick still worked and I got it to a reasonable place. Purely by luck, the 3800's oil level to the dipstick flange is roughly the same as the 3.4 DOHC's, so that was a bonus. I took a piece of 1" X 1/16" mild steel stock and bent some edges for strength, gave it some twist, drilled it and welded it to the dipstick.
So now it faces the rear of the car, and it is still pretty smooth to pull and replace. It's just another minor detail that had to be sorted out.
I converted my 2010 WRX to w2a using parts from Frozen Boost. I picked up on of the little cooling fans and a thermostatic fan controller from Advance Auto. Worked perfect and you can set it to come on when you feel necessary. I also think with that FMHE, you will notice some reduction in the A/C condensers efficiency. How much is unknown. I just dont see how it couldn't be effected to some degree.
Edit, hey, can you make me a dipstick as well? I broke Garth's off in the tube and need to replace the whole darn thing.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 06-26-2013).]
Topic Closed
