I picked up a '02 3100 fuel rail, sans injectors from the junkyard. FieroWannaBe: I would have taken you up on your offer, had I not just bought the rail!
Also got a 7730 ECM from a 92 Beretta with the 3.1 MPFI motor.
Not compatible with what? As long as they're used with the 3100 or 3400 rail, they're fine. As stated earlier, the 3500 rail requires an external regulator anyway. 3100/3400 injectors are too long for the 3500 rail. Plenty of swappers have used the 3100/3400 rail with a 3500.
Yes plenty of swappers have used the 3100/3400 rail with a 3500. Plenty of swappers have also used the 3500 injectors with the 3500 rail. Compatibility is indeed the wrong term to use. The OP asked a question whether he could use 3100/3400 injectors and whether there would be a performance hit. You've already stated 3100 injectors would most likely be maxed out with a 43psi regulator. They would definitely be maxed out with a 55psi regulator. 3400 injectors may work better, but the original 3500 injectors, original fuel rail, and a 55psi regulator would be as close to stock as you could get. There are many different methods of obtaining an end goal. My post is intended to alert the OP that he doesn't need to change the 3500 fuel system drastically if he doesn't want to. I'm not trying to sway you or anyone else... There will be plenty of issues the OP will have to fight through to get his swap completed and running properly. Based on his posts, it appears he has already purchased a 3100 rail and needs help determining which injectors to use.
Using a 55 psi regulator would allow for supplying MORE fuel, not less, thus not maxing the injectors as easily. And since he's using a return style rail, Ill point out that 3.4 DOHC injectors have been used successfully plenty of times, even though their spray pattern may not be ideal. LT1 injectors might also work and are 24#; you could find out the o-ring to o-ring length to be sure (I think you're looking for 60mm o-ring to o-ring, as opposed to the 3500's 48mm.
If you're going to use a naturally aspirated swap it would be to your advantage to run the Beretta code appropriate for your transmission along with the injectors and fuel pressure for that particular code for ease of tuning. OBD I can be sensitive when adjusting for sizable increases in fuel flow. It would be easier to keep the fuel delivery at spec for the 3.1 and adjust the VE table appropriately for the displacement increase. It may not sound like a big deal but it can be very tough to manage closedloop idle when you deviate from the stock fuel system with much higher pressure or higher flowing injectors.
If you're going to use a naturally aspirated swap it would be to your advantage to run the Beretta code appropriate for your transmission along with the injectors and fuel pressure for that particular code for ease of tuning. OBD I can be sensitive when adjusting for sizable increases in fuel flow. It would be easier to keep the fuel delivery at spec for the 3.1 and adjust the VE table appropriately for the displacement increase. It may not sound like a big deal but it can be very tough to manage closedloop idle when you deviate from the stock fuel system with much higher pressure or higher flowing injectors.
Agreed on this, but if he's worried about tuning there are people selling 3500 swap tunes and they are usually willing to adjust for whatever injectors are used.
If you're going to use a naturally aspirated swap it would be to your advantage to run the Beretta code appropriate for your transmission along with the injectors and fuel pressure for that particular code for ease of tuning. OBD I can be sensitive when adjusting for sizable increases in fuel flow. It would be easier to keep the fuel delivery at spec for the 3.1 and adjust the VE table appropriately for the displacement increase. It may not sound like a big deal but it can be very tough to manage closedloop idle when you deviate from the stock fuel system with much higher pressure or higher flowing injectors.
I am not planning on tuning the 7730 myself as I have zero experience in tuning. I have talked with Darth Fiero, I believe he is willing to work on the tune.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 02-25-2013).]
I used the LX9 harness that came with my engine. I've founs that parts store wiring doesn't take the heat of a Fiero engine bay as well as actual harness wiring.
Pull all of the caps to, that's what some salvagers do before selling a motor because depending on the nature of an accident the oil film can be breached and a bearing damaged during impact. If you decide to replace the bearings be sure to check and make sure the bearings were not upgraded. The bearings for the 3900 had a main groove increase to cover 270 degrees of the bearing to increase the oil flow duration to the connecting rods. That's a good thing if you intend to rev the engine above 6k regularly, especially when you consider rod bearing failure was common problem in 2.8L Fieros.
Finally got a bit more time to work on the motor today. I took the valve covers off and turned the motor over, watching the valves and the bottom end. Everything looked good.
I am hesitant to mess with the lower rotating assembly though.
I took off the upper plenum and removed the fuel rail. Unfortunately, the 3100 fuel rail mounting bolts don't quite line up - guess i'll have to slot the holes just a bit.
That miniscule difference in the holes lining up just needs the injectors wiggled in their seats on the rail. Clean the rail up and lube up the injector O Rings, you shouldn't have a problem.
For the cost of new injectors to replace perfectly good late model injectors, why not just buy a bypass fuel pressure regulator, preferably Aeromotive I believe and use the returnless fuel rail. There's no real advantage in converting the rails at this point if the motor does not require higher flowing injectors than the stock parts that came with it. You would also have the benefit of adjustable fuel pressure.
What oil filter adapter will fit on the LX9? Will the 2.8's work?
Just remove the threaded "stud" on the 3500 adapter and screw it into the block; then no adapter is needed. I think you need an M10 Allen key or something to remove it. The 2.8 stud fits as well.
Awesome bcampbell, thanks for the tip. Stud fit right in as you said.
Fuel rail installed with injectors. Had to slot one of the holes to get it to mount, also had to add a washer under the mount to prevent the fuel pipe from touching the plenum. A bit cheesy. Modified the bracket to get the pressure regulator to fit.
I decided to try and fab my own throttle body adapter. To future LX9 swappers - do yourself a favor and just buy the one from WOT. It is NOT worth the effort to make it yourself. But for reference, a plate of 6061 aluminum (12"L x 5"W) from www.mcmaster.com ran me about $20 after shipping.
So - what should I do with the sensors installed? I assume I replace the knock sensor with the OBD1 style one - does it fit in the same spot? It's a different style. I assume I leave the 56x crank sensor, cam sensor, and oil level sensors in place as plugs? I plan on reusing the LX9 MAP sensor as well although I know the wires will have to be spliced.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 03-09-2013).]
The new knock sensor will replace one of the 1/4" NPT plugs on the side of the block. Just leave the old knock sensors, crank sensor, and cam sensor installed. You can install the Fiero's oil pressure sending unit in place of the plug right next to the oil filter, or there's a spot closer to the bellhousong on the same side of the block that has a oil pressure switch installed.
I have no idea if it interferes with A/C, but yes it threads right into the block. The location of the 3500's pressure switch would be farther away from the compressor. Look on rockauto if you need a picture of it to locate it.
I don't know which astro hose is commonly used but the two hoses I used were for a TPI 89 Firebird. One of the heater hoses is also for an 89 Firebird. Minor trimming on one of the large hoses and the heater hose. I put my coolant filler in the other heater hose and used flexible parts store hose.
Made some progress...finished up the TB adapter and got the TB mounted:
So I assume this is the oil pressure sensor, the knock sensor threads right in - is this an OK spot for it? I assume i'll put the oil pressure sensor near the filter.
The knock sensor goes in place of one of the coolant drain plugs, not an oil passage. I believe the knock sensor will only fit on the rear side of the block.
Progress has been slower than I'd like, but I did get some things done tonight.
The 2.8 with the front cover completely removed:
The 3500 with the Fiero timing cover, everything fits...except the one hole near the water outlet (shown in detail below)
Here is the upper air conditioning bracket, you can see that only one of the holes lines up, the bracket will have to be cut and modified to pick up the other hole. Note that the LX9 aluminum head only has two tapped holes - there's a third hole under the bracket here, but it's a plug for the cooling system.
Here is the lower air conditioner bracket. The front bolt is directly into the timing cover so no problems there. The bottom bolt has nowhere to go on the LX9 block. There's a threaded hole about an inch lower in the oil pan, I will make a bracket to pick up this hole instead.
Here is the alternator bracket. The lower hole and the hole near the lifter valley line up. The other two do not. The bracket needs to be modified to pick up at least one of the holes, I will try and pick up both.
Here is the one hole that needs to be plugged at the water outlet. I'm not sure yet what to use to plug it. Any suggestions?
More to come. Sorry about the image quality - camera was misbehaving.
You can drill/tap the extra hole in the timing cover for an NPT plug. Alternatively you can get it welded up. Also in case you haven't already noticed, 3 holes in the timing cover and water pump need to be drilled out for larger bolts, or you can IIRC use helicoils to 'downsize' the threads in the block. On my Firebird I just drilled the holes out for larger bolts.
You can drill/tap the extra hole in the timing cover for an NPT plug. Alternatively you can get it welded up. Also in case you haven't already noticed, 3 holes in the timing cover and water pump need to be drilled out for larger bolts, or you can IIRC use helicoils to 'downsize' the threads in the block. On my Firebird I just drilled the holes out for larger bolts.
You should also consider the possibility of drilling the extra holes in the end of the cylinder head to properly attach the A/C bracket. You should be able to look through the coolant passages and the pre drilled holes in the end to make sure you don't get close to the combustion chamber or any other structures. I believe most 3500 swappers have the 3 terminal coolant temp sensor machined and re-threaded to fit the cylinder head but I simply resized the hole and threaded it for the sensor. The fewer the number of important custom parts the less trouble involved with replacing them.
Here is a picture of the timing cover plug I had a machine shop perform for a 31 and 3400 before the 3500 was produced. Make sure you use a brass plug as I found the steel plug had a tendency to corrode.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-16-2013).]
I think most people use NPT because the threads are tapered/meant for sealing and plugs are commonly available. It would probably be harder to find a plug in metric threads.
I'll pick up a NPT tap set. I do have Harbor Freight nearby I can use.
Fabbed up some aluminum plates and bolted them in place. Wasn't too bad cutting the factory brackets with a small bandsaw I have in the shop. I will weld these plates to the factory brackets, then add some gussets as needed since the casting is a lot thicker than the plate I'm using.
Installed the rear dogbone bracket after welding on a piece of plate:
You can see the spacer I had to use on the center attach point. It's 1" long.
Installed timing cover and water pump with a mix of bolts (M6, M8, M10, M12). I replaced all of the torx head bolts with hex head bolts. Mcmaster has grade 12 hardware for good prices including the corrosion resistant zinc chromate plating (the yellow colored ones). You can see the three holes I had to oversize here on the right side of the water pump. Water pump is installed with blue RTV and no gasket - problem? Also it seems like only one of the bolts actually needs RTV because it goes into the water jacket, the rest are blind holes.
Made some relief cuts into the front dogbone bracket to be able to form it. It didn't line up at all and was too short - I'm not sure if its because the rear bracket is located differently, or the head dimeesions are different. Obviously these will be welded back together once it's done:
The front bracket, ready to be welded. I cut the bracket out around the coolant plug. I suppose it could be used as a structural bolt.
That's all for now.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 04-24-2013).]
Just a heads up that may save you some time? Get a new water pump and CrankShaft Position sensor. The money may be worth the time later down the road? You will need a crank sensor relearn any way before the project is done.
Just a heads up that may save you some time? Get a new water pump and CrankShaft Position sensor. The money may be worth the time later down the road? You will need a crank sensor relearn any way before the project is done.
The front bracket, ready to be welded. I cut the bracket out around the coolant plug. I suppose it could be used as a structural bolt.
This is exactly how I did my 3100 SFI. I did it this way so I could use all of the stock mounting points on the cradle, stock dogbone and the engine was in a position that could be converted to auto or manual. I ran the 4 speed auto for a while then swapped to the 5 speed before I sold it.
