You may want to remove your cooling fan and check your Champion Radiator for leaks. I removed my fan today after it stopped working and found the beginning of what ultimately happened to my first Champion radiator. This radiator has only been in action for about 5 months and had antifreeze in it. I'm not sure what to make of it outside of manufacture defect considering the slightly bent core present when it arrived and the way it was welded up at the top as it has only experienced cool ambient temps since install and an electrolysis check has shown the system is well within limits. I imagine mid Summer I'll be losing coolant again.
This is what the radiator looked like on receipt. I posted this in the original failure thread and noted how the core was already bent a little upon receipt although the box was not damaged and the assembly was a bit off as you can see by the uneven gap at the top frame rail.
Curious as to why it looks like rust? Are you using the orange Dexcool?
This item is on my short list for purchases. Anyone else had issues??
Bob
Possible reaction with the glue or iron deposits from the coolant oxidizing. The coolant was green not orange or rust colored, the radiator hasn't been in the car that long and doesn't have a scale build up.
I'm beginning to wonder if it just can't handle the heat from the motor. Unlike all the other engine swaps here the 3900 has "U" flow coolant direction and even with the thermostat removed during the Summer and the fan running continuously at idle it will not run much cooler than about 185 in FL and probably takes a little longer to bring the temps down as well.
I've been running one for several years with no issues. And, it does a superb job of cooling during our hot Summer months.
Have you pulled the fan back and looked at the seams to make sure there is no leak? This is not a concern about performance but dependability. I don't have a problem with it cooling right now either.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-06-2013).]
I installed mine about the same time you did on this last one. I'll pull my fan and shroud one afternoon after work and take a look. We are planning on driving a good 400 miles this next weekend going to San Antonio to Round-Up. I'll get back to you on this. -Joe
Pulled my fan and shroud after work today. All is well in the cooling department.
I don't believe it's able to handle the heat load, from my setup. The brand new stock radiator ran a little warmer but was fine when I removed it. I had several overheats or near overheats with the first one before I finally discovered it was leaking and causing the intermittent and unpredictable high temps and coolant loss. There is one other possibility, added roughness from lowering the car which was recently restored to stock height about a month ago. If the problem does not progress any further that may be the cause, if the radiator continues to deteriorate it has to be a defect in the part.
I don't believe it's able to handle the heat load, from my setup. The brand new stock radiator ran a little warmer but was fine when I removed it. I had several overheats or near overheats with the first one before I finally discovered it was leaking and causing the intermittent and unpredictable high temps and coolant loss. There is one other possibility, added roughness from lowering the car which was recently restored to stock height about a month ago. If the problem does not progress any further that may be the cause, if the radiator continues to deteriorate it has to be a defect in the part.
Joseph, I find it hard to believe that a welded aluminum structure would be affected by thermal loads generated by an IC engine, even one that runs hotter than "normal". One would have to do some severe thermal shocks (-40*C to 150*C in 30 secs, repeatedly) to fatigue the welds that way. Although the pic you show appears "fishbowled", you stated it was slightly bent. This is the more likely culprit. This, or just a manufacturers defect. One that your application exposes.
Originally posted by RCR: Joseph, I find it hard to believe that a welded aluminum structure would be affected by thermal loads generated by an IC engine, even one that runs hotter than "normal". One would have to do some severe thermal shocks (-40*C to 150*C in 30 secs, repeatedly) to fatigue the welds that way. Although the pic you show appears "fishbowled", you stated it was slightly bent. This is the more likely culprit. This, or just a manufacturers defect. One that your application exposes.
Good luck with it. I hope to see a resolution.
Bob
If I understood the shop tech that examined the first radiator for me the tubes are not welded on this unit but glued or, something of that sort and that's why I considered the possibility of heat stress. The first radiator was in pretty bad shape and because coolant never hit the ground as a result of evaporating and intermittent leak episodes it experienced some very high temps from the resulting borderline and actual overheats. Amazingly it took me nearly 500 miles to FL in that condition without a problem where it was finally discovered to be defective
The last motor hit a head temp of over 280 degrees on one occasion and exceeded 260 at least 5 times. Until the dye was used I was leaning heavily towards a head gasket problem because I could not predict when it would overheat but sometimes it would for no apparent reason at all and there wouldn't be a drop of coolant on the ground.
The current radiator has reached 265 degree temps due to a hose leak and that also adds to my suspicion although this particular unit is a little different than the last and as was noted appears to have already been stressed structurally by the time it was received. If it gets worse I may look into having one built locally. It is not squeezed in place I made sure the mount bracket was not putting undue stress on it and the bumpers are in place.
Whatever the case I have a reference point now to follow progress or digression.
Although the two seap points look like rust, the inside of the radiator does not look like that and I believe that's the glue reacting with the leaked components and changing color.
Also note that the problem area is consistently in the hottest area of the radiator, near the incoming hot water at the top.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-10-2013).]
Thanx for the clarification. Glue/epoxy definitely could be stressed like that. Although 265* still isn't that bad (I work in electronics and have had to deal with 300*F).
Have you gone back to Champion and asked for an explanation?
Thanx for the clarification. Glue/epoxy definitely could be stressed like that. Although 265* still isn't that bad (I work in electronics and have had to deal with 300*F).
Have you gone back to Champion and asked for an explanation? Bob
I'm going to do that once I put the pictures of both radiators together. I dealt with the seller for the warranty but will contact Champion directly this time. Heat stress is the only practical causal agent I can come up with due to the uniqueness of the coolant flow design and the consistency of the trouble spot. It's the high temperature combined with pressure that's probably showing the weakness.
Not bashing these guys, I believe they make a good product however, there's always room for improvement. A search over the net revealed that this is not an uncommon problem with Champion radiators. Many of those using a Champion radiator will probably not have any trouble in an application close to OE spec performance. In a high output application things appear to be different. I found several but will post two links I found regarding problems similar to mine with a champion 3 row rad. One owner in the first link has had two failures like I am apparently about to have.
Why would you put this garbage in over the stock radiator? With only 14k miles I couldn't imagine that it needed to be changed.
Lets call it a "forced upgrade". And I didn't get my damn stock radiator back! Furthermore, I had no idea these radiators where complete **** . Live and learn I guess.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Lets call it a "forced upgrade". And I didn't get my damn stock radiator back! Furthermore, I had no idea these radiators where complete **** . Live and learn I guess.
Despite the many cars running around with the radiators in them, without any issues, yes, clearly they are garbage. Especially the one in your car, that isn't even running right now as you so eloquently put it in your previous comment, or the one that Justinbart apparently doesn't have, because the stock one is good enough for him.
Let's not end up turning this thread into trash too with such disparaging and unhelpful remarks. Joseph is doing a superb job of determining the problems with his own radiator, and we don't need his efforts ruined by such trite commentary in his thread.
Ive never had a problem with them at all. My 413 Dodge runs a 2 row aluminum one. Never gets over 175* ever, never leaked a drop in 5 years. I put prob 10K miles on it every summer.
Originally posted by dobey: Despite the many cars running around with the radiators in them, without any issues, yes, clearly they are garbage. Especially the one in your car, that isn't even running right now as you so eloquently put it in your previous comment, or the one that Justinbart apparently doesn't have, because the stock one is good enough for him.
Let's not end up turning this thread into trash too with such disparaging and unhelpful remarks. Joseph is doing a superb job of determining the problems with his own radiator, and we don't need his efforts ruined by such trite commentary in his thread.
I appreciate that nudge in the right direction, it's easy to get a little upset over bad experiences and I understand. This is an important subject to me because the leaking radiator further insulted an already injured motor by allowing it to get so hot that the rod bearings took a hit in the first motor from the hot temps further thinning out the low weight oil and could have easily just blown the motor and my turbo. That's one reason I run 50W oil now as it has to get much hotter to perform like a 30 weight oil.
Ive never had a problem with them at all. My 413 Dodge runs a 2 row aluminum one. Never gets over 175* ever, never leaked a drop in 5 years. I put prob 10K miles on it every summer.
My motor will never run 175 in the Summer except for the moment it takes it to pass that point on the way to 185 or higher. That's also a two row with likely a different configuration and probably made years ago and maybe better. The links I posted to show or address problems with the same 3 row core material that I have from what I can tell.
I recently purchased the GPI Racing version of this radiator. Another Chinese manufacturer, but this one is supposed to be furnace brazed instead of epoxied.
It looks pretty good. The passages look open from what I can see down the neck. I'm going to rebuild most of the cooling system, so I'll post up my impression once it's done.
I recently purchased the GPI Racing version of this radiator. Another Chinese manufacturer, but this one is supposed to be furnace brazed instead of epoxied.
It looks pretty good. The passages look open from what I can see down the neck. I'm going to rebuild most of the cooling system, so I'll post up my impression once it's done.
Bob
Nice find! I'll have to order one to replace this epoxied junk I have now. Thanks for posting!
Has anybody with the champion radiator had any problems with the threads in the trani cooler line fitting? When I went to install Johns lines the threads were trashed on the bottom one and almost non existent on the top one. I think its kinda a poor design they should have had a brass insert so it is not so susceptible to the steel line nut killing the aluminum threads I think it must have been damaged in jasper around the same time they broke off the overflow tube. I would put money they either cross threaded them or over tightened. Either way tho steel on aluminium with coolant hmmm seems like the makings of hydrogen embrittlement and failure.
[This message has been edited by jetsnvettes2000 (edited 08-21-2013).]
Has anybody with the champion radiator had any problems wit the threads in the trani cooler line fitting? When I went to install Johns lines the threads were trashed on the bottom one and almost non existent on the top one. I think its kinda a poor design they should have had a brass insert so it is not so susceptible to the steel line nut killing the aluminum threads I think it must have been damaged in jasper around the same time they broke off the overflow tube. I would put money they either cross threaded them or over tightened. Either way tho steel on aluminium with coolant hmmm seems like the makings of hydrogen embrittlement and failure.
Yes although I forgot the members name. On my replacement unit the drainc,ock was installed with thread tape and appears to have been cross threaded during install not to mention it no longer works due to the handle spinning on the valve stem.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-21-2013).]
The radiator shop in town here has seen many issues with radiators from this company I guess. I shutter at the estimate they will give me tomorrow to fix it the right way with hardened or brass inserts. I may just end up getting a different one and telling John to use this on on the GBCT since it needs a radiator and has a manual trani. That would fix the problem and fix his other choptop at the same time.
Sorry for the delay,been away. No pics. I had to shorten a 1/4 pipe tap to thread out the shallow hole. I have an aux cooler in front of the rad so I used a 90 degree 1/4 pipe to 5/16 barb fitting and extended the cooler hose to the aux cooler. Marc
I also had the 2 row Champions in my Ferrari kit, the V8 Fiero, the SuperBee, and both corvettes, all automatics except the Ferrari kit. No problems with any of them. I also never had the need for 3 row as it usually dont get over mid 90s here The v8 Fiero would get a little warmer than I liked if it idled over a few hours in traffic.
Did an inspection with the fiber optic flex camera today. My Champion radiator looks perfect under the fan 3 years later. I still use ethylene glycol coolant 60% glycol 40% H2O and all is fine. I never liked Dexcool as there are too many horror stories on it sludging up from those using it. I have trouble believing that the cooling tubes are fastened with epoxy to the tank inside plate. I can believe that the tank sides are fastened with epoxy to the core plate. It just sounds like this radiator was not manufactured for severe high performance use. The only problem with my Champion is that standard Fiero radiator caps do not seal it. I believe that the Champion radiator uses an unusual and specific cap design and it is a 20 lb cap. Perhaps this is what is causing the leaks..
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-18-2015).]
Okay seriously. I am trying to bolt my rad fan to the champion rad but the bolt wont go through. The bolt is hitting the rad. Are there some spacers I have forgotten about? Do I have to cut down my rad fan bolts?
As a product marketing analyst for a major automotive parts retailer, I can tell you from experience that Champion aluminum radiators are one hell of a bargain for the $$$ that you spend on them. The downside to this very simplified statement is that they are in fact manufactured overseas. The traditional quality control process isn't as good as it would be if it was performed and monitored here in the 'States. That said, Champion radiators have a well-established and outstanding reputation for being ultra-reliable, very affordable, and very well built (as already indicated by a few experienced forum members).
The problem... where a typical USA product inspection occurs at least every 5-10 units produced, rarely monitored overseas manufacturers sometimes do this every 25-50-75 units, or whatever number they can get away with to make/save a buck. You'd be surprised how many "overseas manufacturers" have nothing but a sheet of tin over their dirt-floored shop. They want $, and are not concerned about quality. From what I have seen, these ugly scenarios are just not the case with Champion... they have a legit overseas manufacturing facility, and USA eyes monitor quality and production standards to meet ISO certification requirements. If there happens to be a flaw in the manufacturing process, it may be caught late into a single production run. Occasionally, this happens well after a few of the compromised products have already been crated and shipped overseas.
By then it's just too late to turn them back in quantity... that's just business; saving/making a dollar using the slow-boat from China.
The bottom line... while occasional flaws may be found in imported Champion aluminum radiators, the odds of actually getting a "bad" one is actually very slim. Well packaged, very rarely damaged in transit. Based on the direct customer input I have seen across multiple car lines, a Champion radiator is the sh!t for more than just a Pontiac Fiero. On a side note, I'm buying one soon for my V8 GT project.
Also... if you run an aluminum radiator... it's highly recommended to use a sacrificial anode to prevent corrosion. Example:
Originally posted by Matthew_Fiero: Okay seriously. I am trying to bolt my rad fan to the champion rad but the bolt wont go through. The bolt is hitting the rad. Are there some spacers I have forgotten about? Do I have to cut down my rad fan bolts?
I would really appreciate any ones help!
To start with, you probably should have started a new thread about your specific problem, rather than attempting to hijack this thread, which is about a completely different issue.
And are you not using the factory Fiero shroud and fan? The OEM shroud bolts to the upper and lower radiator support frames, and not the radiator itself. If you have an aftermarket fan which uses threaded rods that are meant to through the radiator fins, I don't know what to tell you, other than to not do that. Using the OEM shroud will give you the best airflow through the radiator for cooling.
To start with, you probably should have started a new thread about your specific problem, rather than attempting to hijack this thread, which is about a completely different issue.
And are you not using the factory Fiero shroud and fan? The OEM shroud bolts to the upper and lower radiator support frames, and not the radiator itself. If you have an aftermarket fan which uses threaded rods that are meant to through the radiator fins, I don't know what to tell you, other than to not do that. Using the OEM shroud will give you the best airflow through the radiator for cooling.
Hello,
I was not hijack a thread, the topic is somewhat related and outdated and therefore I was not trying to avoid what the original poster intended. I am using the factory Fiero shroud and fan. For some reason the bolts will not engage into the factory Fiero shroud and I think the bolts are hitting the fan and since this topic has never been discussed I think I am somehow making a silly mistake. My fan is mounting directly on the stock Fiero shrouds. Maybe there is some spacers I am missing? It has been 3 years since I have driven this car so I may be missing something. I am honestly sorry if I have offended you but I really just wanted to keep some information together rather than creating a whole new post. It's easier for the archive search in the future for other people.
Thank you for everyone's time and please know I had no intention to hijack anything.
The v8 Fiero would get a little warmer than I liked if it idled over a few hours in traffic.
