Well, I almost finished a swap without posting a bunch of questions up here. I haven't been able to get my car to start. It occasionally will fire one cylinder only, but often just cranks. I'm worried that I'm running into a VATS issue. The engine is an L67 rebuilt from the ground up, but originally came from a 98 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. The PCM is from a 98 Buick Regal GS.
On key on, the fuel pump turns on as normal. The odd part is that the Check Engine light does not turn on in bulb test, but the Hi Temp light and Battery Warning light do, sometimes. The lights always turn on after key on, but after a failed start or two they don't turn on at all. Should the Check Engine light turn on in bulb test? I need to check my wiring at the C203.
Regarding the VATS, I've read that some Regal GS PCM's require the BCM to remove VATS. Since I don't have a BCM, I'm not sure what to do. I've followed HP Tuners' advice regarding removing VATS through setting the DTCs to 3 - No Report and setting VATS to PWM. I just get that one individual fire.
Here's a scan of an attempted start, and an HPT file: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1apa4ayz69qj71o/8TxPnTFQM3
Does not sound like a VAT's problem if it was the engine would fire and run on all 6 cylinders for about 30 seconds then just die due to the PCM shutting off the fuel. I would be wondering why you are only having one cylinder firing is it a wiring problem or the PCM or ignition module if it is spark that is missing. If it is a fuel problem then either the injectors are wired wrong which it should throw a code for or there is 5 bad injectors on your engine which is unlikely. Dan
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DARN Cars now open with Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics technician in both Canadian Air Force and civilian aviation. Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars. Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.
The tach works properly while it's turning over, there's power to the ICM, and I've pulled a plug and verified that it's getting spark. I'm pretty sure I'm good on spark. I've also verified that the injectors are all getting power, but I haven't retraced the ground side of the injectors back to the computer.
Any idea on the indicating lights? Does that sound normal?
From cold iron, turned the key on and the fuel pump came on as well as the Water Temp and Battery Light. Bumped the starter and one cylinder fired, the car died and the fuel pump came on. Turned the key off then back on. Both the Water Temp and Battery Light were black, but the fuel pump turned on.
Does the fuel pump come on every time you bump the starter?
ie turn the key on - the pump should come on 2 sec and then turn off. Then bump the starter and see if the fp comes on for two seconds and turns off. Then bump it again and see if the fuel pump does it again. Every bump should give you two more seconds of fp.
So you have spark on all 6 cylinders but only firing on one then dies. Double check your injector wiring then check your injectors. The high temp and battery light should be on during the bulb test as this is done in the Fieros wiring not the engine portion making me wonder if there is a wiring problem inside the car. Dan
VAT's shuts off the fuel after about 30 seconds of running time so if it is stalling within a few seconds and not running on all 6 cylinders I would say VAT's are not your problem. Wondering if all your grounds are there in the C203 pin M, C500 pin A2 and on the engine chassis ground is fed to the O2, MAF, PCM C1 (blue) pins 16, 56, 57 and 60 and on auto swaps to the neutral start switch connector but that would not cause this problem. Have you verified +12 volts ignition to the O2, MAF and ignition module as well as all 6 injectors. Common mistakes easily made when doing the harness is the switch the ignition module white wires from pin A and E but your tach working eliminates that and to mix up the IAC wiring but that would just mess up your idle. Do you have the +5 volts reference on the TPS, MAP. Just shooting some ideas that might help. Dan
VATS fuel cutoff will activate right after the engine starts, not 30 seconds of it running. The prime symptom of a VATS fuel cut is the engine starts, runs for less than 2 seconds, then immediately shuts off.
On OE supercharged cars that have the fuel pump resistor that went bad, the symptom was the engine would start, run for about 5-10 seconds, then start to stumble and shut off (because the PCM switched over to running the fuel pump thru the resistor which went bad). If you wired your swap to bypass the resistor so you don't need it (most 3800 SC Fiero swaps are done this way), this shouldn't be an issue for you.
Another problem I have FREQUENTLY encountered on these engines is a symptom of the fuel injectors being clogged because the engine had sat disconnected from a fuel system at a junkyard or in someone's garage. This is caused by the fuel evaporating out of the fuel rail and injectors leaving behind an agent that clogs/sticks the injectors shut. The symptom seems very much like what you describe - engine won't start, may start but seems like it is only running on 1 or 2 cylinders, or runs with a misfire. In these instances, I've had to manually unclog the injectors by applying 12v + power to each momentarily and rapidly, and sometimes rapping on the side of the injector body with a screwdriver handle to "free" them open. Verify flow thru the injector using shop air regulated down to less than 60psi while 12v + power is applied to it. DO NOT leave 12v + power applied to the injector for more than a few seconds as this can overheat and damage the internal windings.
-ryan
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VAT's shuts off the fuel after about 30 seconds of running time so if it is stalling within a few seconds and not running on all 6 cylinders I would say VAT's are not your problem. Wondering if all your grounds are there in the C203 pin M, C500 pin A2 and on the engine chassis ground is fed to the O2, MAF, PCM C1 (blue) pins 16, 56, 57 and 60 and on auto swaps to the neutral start switch connector but that would not cause this problem. Have you verified +12 volts ignition to the O2, MAF and ignition module as well as all 6 injectors. Common mistakes easily made when doing the harness is the switch the ignition module white wires from pin A and E but your tach working eliminates that and to mix up the IAC wiring but that would just mess up your idle. Do you have the +5 volts reference on the TPS, MAP. Just shooting some ideas that might help. Dan
I'll check the C203 and C500 grounds this evening, although I'm pretty certain they're good. I have not verified 12 VDC to the O2 and MAF, but they're both logging in HP Tuners. I'll verify. I have verified 12 VDC to the ignition module, and to two of the six injectors. I didn't feel it necessary to check all of them, as I have them running to a separate fusebox soldered together. Regardless, it's easy to check. The +5 volts is present on the MAP, I haven't checked the TPS (although it indicates properly in HP Tuners). The MAP reads 14.7 psi key off, engine off which seems a bit odd. Unless it's reading PSIA instead of PSIG.
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Originally posted by phonedawgz:
So that means the signal from the ICM is getting to the PCM.
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Make sure your spark plug wires are correct
Note - #1 on the 3800 is in a different location compared to the 2.8
Looked at an old picture where I had the coils on wrong, sprinted to the garage.... and I already fixed it. I'm correct in thinking that #1 is the front cylinder on the passenger side?
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
VATS fuel cutoff will activate right after the engine starts, not 30 seconds of it running. The prime symptom of a VATS fuel cut is the engine starts, runs for less than 2 seconds, then immediately shuts off.
On OE supercharged cars that have the fuel pump resistor that went bad, the symptom was the engine would start, run for about 5-10 seconds, then start to stumble and shut off (because the PCM switched over to running the fuel pump thru the resistor which went bad). If you wired your swap to bypass the resistor so you don't need it (most 3800 SC Fiero swaps are done this way), this shouldn't be an issue for you.
Another problem I have FREQUENTLY encountered on these engines is a symptom of the fuel injectors being clogged because the engine had sat disconnected from a fuel system at a junkyard or in someone's garage. This is caused by the fuel evaporating out of the fuel rail and injectors leaving behind an agent that clogs/sticks the injectors shut. The symptom seems very much like what you describe - engine won't start, may start but seems like it is only running on 1 or 2 cylinders, or runs with a misfire. In these instances, I've had to manually unclog the injectors by applying 12v + power to each momentarily and rapidly, and sometimes rapping on the side of the injector body with a screwdriver handle to "free" them open. Verify flow thru the injector using shop air regulated down to less than 60psi while 12v + power is applied to it. DO NOT leave 12v + power applied to the injector for more than a few seconds as this can overheat and damage the internal windings.
-ryan
Your description of VATS failure is more consistent with what I've read.
I have to say I have no idea what you're talking about with a fuel pump resistor. This is the first I've read about it. I changed the 2.5 fuel pump to a Delco EP-381 and bolted it in. Other than that I stayed true to the Fiero fuel pump wiring, aside from moving the fuel pump relay to under the center console. I'll search for info about the fuel pump resistor.
While I agree that the injectors might be stuck after sitting dry for so long, that doesn't jive with my not having injector pulse does it? I'll see if I can free them by cycling them manually, just in case.
The reason I'm so stuck on VATS is that I've read that some Regal PCMs require communication from the BCM to disable VATS. In this case HP Tuners isn't able to program that functionality out (but other tuners can). I can't seem to confirm this piece of info though, even through contacting HP Tuners directly.
Not sure on how the Regal PCM communicates but I know the GTP PCM is much better for many reasons, might be a good idea to reprogram your PCM as a GTP one and make any needed wiring changes. Every time I have dealt with a VAT's problem the engine would run fine for a min of 15 seconds before stalling and would start right back up and do the same thing again no matter what you try to keep the engine running. Dan
Not sure on how the Regal PCM communicates but I know the GTP PCM is much better for many reasons, might be a good idea to reprogram your PCM as a GTP one and make any needed wiring changes. Every time I have dealt with a VAT's problem the engine would run fine for a min of 15 seconds before stalling and would start right back up and do the same thing again no matter what you try to keep the engine running. Dan
I'm ready and willing to change it to a GTP PCM, but I'm concerned about the cost. Does anyone know if the 98 Regal GS PCM will take a GTP bin? I'd have to turn in a HP Tuners credit to try it, and I'd hate to waste one to have it not work.
It seems like the big difference between the two (for a five speed, at least) is the ECT sensor ground moves from blue connector pin 12 on the GTP to pin 17. Also, the Regal pinout lists Blue Pin 13 as Not Used, while it's the MAP ground on the GTP. I need to find a new ground. Clear pin 35 is listed as a "Sensor Ground", and I'm going to try that. Perhaps it'll fix the false high reading on the MAP, and maybe it has something to do with the no start.
Regardless, I need to pull the harness off to check, so I'll triple check the injector locations at that time.
Well no matter what if you are using a Regal, Bonneville, Park Avenue, or any 3800 SC tune on your PCM other than one from a GTP, you are likely going to run into a VATS issue. I don't think what you are describing is only a VATS problem though. But VATS IS going to be a problem in your case if you are trying to use a Regal PCM program.
Yes, your Regal PCM will "take" a GTP ".bin"/tune. Might as well have someone who knows what they are doing (someone on this forum like myself or others) tune your PCM for your swap since we know what needs to be done for Fiero swaps. If you go to ZZP or any of the other Grand Prix vendors for a tune, you'll probably end up with a tune that produces a check engine light because they don't know what needs to be done to the tune to work in these swaps.
BUT, like I said, I think you've got more going on than just a VATS issue here - based on your description of the symptoms. But I could be wrong. In any case, you're going to need to get rid of that Regal programming and at least replace it with GTP based programming.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Yes, your Regal PCM will "take" a GTP ".bin"/tune. Might as well have someone who knows what they are doing (someone on this forum like myself or others) tune your PCM for your swap since we know what needs to be done for Fiero swaps. If you go to ZZP or any of the other Grand Prix vendors for a tune, you'll probably end up with a tune that produces a check engine light because they don't know what needs to be done to the tune to work in these swaps.
I checked my wiring, changed it over to the Regal GS, and it still wouldn't start up. I decided to go for it and flashed it to a 98 GTP, and it started right up. I appreciate the offer of having someone tune it, but I've been at this project a looooooooooooong time (Bought the L67 in October 2009). If there's one thing I have, it's patience. I bought HP Tuners because I wanted to take a crack at tuning it myself.
Thanks everyone for the help. Turns out I should have listened to conventional wisdom and got a GTP PCM from the start!
I am in the same boat right now - 1999 Regal PCM that has a VATs parameter the HPTuner doesn't remove.
If I grab a 1999 Grand Prix GTP BIN file and drop 2 HPTuner credits on it, I can push that calibration onto the already-licensed Regal PCM and it will work?
I just saw the post over on HP Tuners' forum from you.
Yeah, as you can see in this thread I flashed it to a 98 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and it started right up. It also fixed the issue I was having with the dash lights working correctly (but not my clutch issue). If I were you, I'd spend the two credits.
I'm not really impressed by the support at HP Tuners, those guys are all flash. The ad campaign and GUI are pretty, but I think an older tuner is probably a better buy.
thanks for your quick reply! I will grab a bin file for a 98 GTP and see what happens. I've got to get it running before I'll know if I have any clutch issues!
I don't want to - and really don't have the time to - send my PCM to somebody else to have them force a bin file onto it.
I am mainly concerned with whether or not the HP Tuners software will allow me to force a bin file from another car on to this PCM and whether or not it will actually work. I've sent them an email asking the same question but haven't received a response yet. I really need to get this car out of the garage soon. I have other projects I must get done.
The credits situation is only a secondary concern at best.
If you are going to use the PCM in a 1999 Regal it still needs to talk to the 1999 Regal BCM. Reprogramming it as a different PCM to eliminate VATs won't work since it won't talk to the Regal BCM properly.
If you are using the PCM in a stand alone mode, such as in a Fiero swap then it will work.
If you are going to use the PCM in a 1999 Regal it still needs to talk to the 1999 Regal BCM. Reprogramming it as a different PCM to eliminate VATs won't work since it won't talk to the Regal BCM properly.
If you are using the PCM in a stand alone mode, such as in a Fiero swap then it will work.
That didn't make sense to me. "Stand alone mode"? Its just a box. Turning off the VATS should eliminate its need for communication with the BCM - either through the fuel enable (pin 70) or over the Class II data line. It is always in "Stand Alone Mode". The early OBDII brains aren't like the CAN buss stuff. If I reprogram the PCM as a Grand Prix PCM, why will it care about the Regal BCM either way? I am using this PCM in a 3800 Fiero swap. I want it to work in that regard. That is all. The simple question is (and the one that I can't seem to get a straight answer about - either here or through communication with HPTuner's support) is: WILL FLASHING A GRAND PRIX BIN FILE ONTO THIS 1999 REGAL PCM WORK AT ALL? Will it conflict with the OS? Will doing this actually disable the VATS? I just want to push a different bin onto the PCM. I can do this apparently through HPTuner if I want to spend the $100. BUT WILL THE CAR RUN AND START?
Sorry for shouting. I'm starting to be frustrated and annoyed by all the tangential answers. This 3 or 4 day swap project has turned into a two week project while the thing just sits there, taking up garage space. Its all buttoned up and ready to go. I just need a working PCM and I need it now. Thanks.
HPT is the worst company i have ever delt with, ever.
Heh. I'm pretty sure they are not even close to the worst. Its just frustrating to me to have such a versatile and potentially useful tool supported by a team that is completely unwilling to be helpful or at least resolute in their answers. Every question I've sent their way was met with a dodge. After pressing relentlessly for an answer to "will it work", Bill's only resolution was to offer to refund my original credits if what I wanted to try worked. So - "Go ahead and blow another $100. If you are lucky, we'll give you back your original $100." He is so insistent on how their "thousands" of customer resolutions equate to knowing what my problem isn't but not what my issue is (or even might be) nor what their package can and cannot do in my particular circumstance. Five rather extensive e-mails and all I got, essentially, was "Good Luck."
Well, wish me luck. I will throw those dice tomorrow evening. If it doesn't work, AEM here I come...
Thanks man. I wish I could have been more helpful.
I should have piped in with further information. When I was going through this, I attempted to build the VATS bypass box (do a search). I was unable to get a proper frequency generated from it, but I'm cursed when it comes to circuits with a 555 timer. I've never been able to build a damned thing with a 555 timer and get it to work correctly.
I figured I could either spend hours troubleshooting the frequency generator, or just flash the PCM to a 98 GTP and try it.
For those of you in the future, there seems to be fairly good overlap between Buick PCMs and Pontiac GTP bins. I did quite a bit of searching to ensure that I'd be able to flash it before I spent the credits.
I was under the impression that I needed to license the PCM to get it to work. You can license a bin / hpt file and flash it to any PCM that will accept it. If you don't feel like reinventing the wheel, spend your license points on a 1998 / 99 Pontiac GTP and flash it to your PCM, or find a PCM that will accept it. Plenty of people have done the R&D on this swap and they're right. I hope more people can learn from my mistake.
