Can someone give me a rundown on what its gunna take to mate an F40 to an L67? Im trying to decide if its worth the hassle. How well does the gearing work with that engine?
Stock thickness F body 3800 manual flywheel, SPEC clutch for the F40 along with a .25 inch HTOB spacer, SAAB 9-5 jack shaft, 2006 Cobalt SS axles from a SC manual car, early 90's Trans Sport van 3800 oil filter adapter, modified 84 Fiero 4 speed shifter, two Getrag Fiero select cables from Rodney and tell him they are for the F40. Make up mounts, shifter brackets and jack shaft mount bracket. Build harness to match and program PCM also to match with the F40 60,000 ppm vss. Dan
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DARN Cars now open with Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics technician in both Canadian Air Force and civilian aviation. Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars. Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.
Ok I decided to squeeze the trigger and purchased a F40 Transmission on e-bay, and have a 3800SC Series 3 Engine I want to mate it to. My first question is: Is this still the preferred setup? Does anyone have part numbers and or recommend vendors for which to purchase the parts from? and can anyone recommend a good build tread for the 3800/F40, I've been searching and haven't found any that didn't leave me with questions. I have to ask if you can use 2006 Cobalt SS axles why have I seen posts about $900 custom axles fot F40 Swaps? are these possibly for a different engine? LS4 maybe? Anyways any information would be appreciated.
Ok I decided to squeeze the trigger and purchased a F40 Transmission on e-bay, and have a 3800SC Series 3 Engine I want to mate it to. My first question is: Is this still the preferred setup? Does anyone have part numbers and or recommend vendors for which to purchase the parts from? and can anyone recommend a good build tread for the 3800/F40, I've been searching and haven't found any that didn't leave me with questions. I have to ask if you can use 2006 Cobalt SS axles why have I seen posts about $900 custom axles fot F40 Swaps? are these possibly for a different engine? LS4 maybe? Anyways any information would be appreciated.
I prefer the F23 as you don't have to worry about axles and there is a F23 guide on this forum somewhere.
Yes the F23 is not a bad option and has a lot of pros but like I said I have already made my choice and purchased a F40. But speaking of the WCF kit, this is what I find so confusing, although most of kit seems reasonable priced, why are the axles $900 if 2006 Cobalt SS axles will work? Also why is the flywheel $350 if it is just a standard Camaro flywheel which from my understanding has not even been modified? (Just to be clear I'm not making judgements here these are just observations / questions) I should also state not to get me wrong I don't have a problem spending money for what I need but I would like to hear why I should spend over 2X the amount for one option over another.
The cobalt axles only work when there is room to move the engine/transmission to the PS 1". Some swaps have room for this move (V6s) but others don't. If you shift it 1", then you likely will need to make/modify the engine/dogbone mount as most mounts offered are not setup to shift the driveline for the F40/Cobalt axle combo. The stock Cobalt SS axles are also considered weak as the shaft is turned down to shear off with excess torque, but there are a few other places that sell upgraded versions of the Cobalt SS axles.
WCF uses new G6 parts (like Archie) and the cost for both axles and intermediate shaft is about $600+ from GM + the cost of the custom length axles (G6 axle lengths don't work), which is why they are about $900 They may cost more, but this setup should be stronger than the stock Cobalt SS axles.
I would also like to add that the use of 2 getrag select cables will likely result in a broken shift cable it you drive it hard. The getrag select cable just isn't thick enough for shift cable use and slows down the upshift into 3rd because it will buckle under an aggressive upshift.
I am gearing up to sell the shifter bracket for use with the Isuzu Shift/Getrag Select combo, a bolt on reverse lockout for the 5 speed shifter, and have 15 hydraulic couplers in stock that just need testing.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-27-2014).]
Thank you fieroguru, your information was very informative as always! Does anyone know what the ratings are for the G6 axles?, (mainly for comparison reasons), to be honest I would rather buy upgraded 2006 Cobalt SS axles than have to get custom made axles even if their the same price (since who knows what the vendor scene will look like 10+ years from now.) Is there anyone who makes the Cobalt/F40 Mounts or do I just shift and drill everything over an inch? Would there be any other issues shifting over an inch? Such as the cables length, AC lines, etc.? (these questions are for anyone who has already done the Cobalt/F40 swap of course) Clearance is another concern, I am thinking about adding an intercooler and I know I'll have to modify the deck lid but will this be a bigger concern if I shift things over an inch. These are just concerns I'd like to answer since maybe in the end I'll be better off buying the modified axles, but which ever way I go I don't want to regret it.
The stock G6 GTP passenger side axle and jack shaft will work but will require you to move the assembly 1" to the driver side instead, it is what I use along with one modified shaft (shortened G6 shaft) on the left along with the heavy duty manual trans Fiero outboard joints at the end of the axles. I believe a wise route to take if you don't favor anything already available to strongly, is to have Moser Racing or another capable company, Strange? for example make you a set of heavy duty shafts for probably less than $400 for the pair so that all you ever need to do if there is a problem is replace the joint which can easily be found if needed as opposed to a custom part that you may end up having to wait a while or pay more for if there is a problem. The only problem I've had was failure of a joint bearing cage from excessive shaft angle from lowering the car too much along with very high torque under load.
When I first started my F40 swap research around 2000 whatever, a set of shafts with the proper splining to mate the Fiero outboard joint with the G6 inboard joint by Moser was $300 and you would have a hardened shaft without the taper into the joint that the Cobalt axles have that will likely break under the traction load they will be subjected to in the Fiero and some point.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-27-2014).]
Thanks for the input Upson, but I guess that would open up a lot of the same questions regarding clearance, cables, A/C, mounts etc except for 1 inch the opposite direction.
Thank you fieroguru, your information was very informative as always! Does anyone know what the ratings are for the G6 axles?, (mainly for comparison reasons), to be honest I would rather buy upgraded 2006 Cobalt SS axles than have to get custom made axles even if their the same price (since who knows what the vendor scene will look like 10+ years from now.)
GM doesn't rate their axles, so who knows how strong the stock G6 axles are, but there also hasn't been the same discussions about their failures as with the Cobalt SS ones. With my LS4/F40 swap I am running a stock DS G6 axle (Fiero CV housing swapped on) for my PS axle (Modified Saab intermediate shaft to make it work) and have put 14K miles, twelve 1/4 mile passes, 10 autocross laps, eight 3S laps and lots of street WOT runs without issue. The car dyno'd at 382 whp and 335 wtq.
The aftermarket versions that Archie and WCF should be stronger than stock. Archie's have been holding up w/o issue behind LS3's (424 lb-ft at flywheel for the base version). The day I was beating on mine at the track J Gunset was there beating on his LS3/F40 Archie swap. I think I did see that Troyboy snapped one of Archie's with his supercharged LS7, but that think his car is over 600+ fwtq.
The upgraded Cobalt axles are custom too. So it shouldn't matter if you buy them from the Drive Shaft Shop or get a stock set and have a stronger axle mfg make you custom shafts. The way I look at it, the market for complete upgrades axle assemblies is pretty small, so eventually DSS and others might just drop them entirely. The places the build custom shafts for all different applications will likely be around for years to come and the shafting material needed for custom F40 axle shafts should be common to several other axles. Besides, the housings on both ends are not what normally breaks, its the axle shaft itself. So don't spend $$$ on upgrading a part that isn't needed and spend the $$$ on the axle shaft.
As you can see below, the stage 2 upgraded Cobalt axles are $720, so they are not cheap. You could probably get a complete used axle set for $100 to $200 and spend $300 for the custom shafts and be $$$ ahead. https://www.modernperforman...ercharged_drivetrain [/quote]
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Originally posted by Fiero Vampire: Is there anyone who makes the Cobalt/F40 Mounts or do I just shift and drill everything over an inch?
Archie and WCF are the only two vendors making F40 mounts, but they are based on using their axles and the engine placement is offset the other direction than you are needing to go. Almost all the other DIY F40 swaps used mount setups that were more one-off creations and not something you can buy. FIEROFLYER is the only one who I can remember doing a 3800/F40 swap using the cobalt ss axles, but I don't think he ever put his mounts into production either.
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Originally posted by Fiero Vampire: Would there be any other issues shifting over an inch? Such as the cables length
The shift cables are overly long to begin with, so moving it 1" to the PS is a non-issue for the shift cables.
I believe the 2008-up Turbo Cobalt axles in addition to being stronger, basically put you in a circumstance of only needing to change the outboard joints as the 08 Cobalt joints I do believe are the same as that of the G6, unlike the first design Cobalt joints which plug directly into the Fiero hubs.
Wow, funny that you'd bump a year old thread of mine right when I return to the forum :P I ended up buying an F23 for my L67. Haven't mated them yet. Good luck with the F40
This is acctually in a 89 Buick Reatta but still applies.
The F40 bolted to the 3800 transmission is extremely noisy, an issue that seems common to using the 3800 with the F40. The only answer I had found was turn up the idle. As for me a 1200 rpm idle is not something I was will to live with. After researching for quite some time, I came to realize that the noise was most likely due to the transmission normally being used with a dual mass flywheel. Well good luck finding something that was never produced. Spec clutch (who produces the clutch for this swap) was no help. After even more research I found that GM, AKA Holden, actually produced a DMF (dual mass flywheel) for the 3800, and amazingly one of the applications had the same tooth count as the current flywheel and spline count as the F40.
So after doing Uncle Sam's bidding in Guam for a year I got back to repairing the car. I never was able to get all the measurements for the Holden clutch/DMF. Really sucked because the cheapest clutch and shipping was $1200. Seeing that the engine had to come out I decided to pull the trigger and ordered the clutch, this was a huge gamble as it is for a RWD car. Thank fully the clutch was a perfect match with the Spec measurements. So I reused the Spec slave and throw out bearing (actually a SAAB part). I have not put many miles on the new clutch, due to the car not being registered yet, but all indications are that it is the perfect solution for anyone that has done or wants to do this swap. Also the clutch will handle, at least stock power from the series 2 SC engine, as it is used in a SC car for at least two model years. Also my next build will be a Fiero.
SCReatta was wondering if you had the part # for the GM / Holden dual mass flywheel? I already bought the SPEC Aluminium Flywheel and clutch but if I ever decide to go a different route it would be nice to have other options.
FYI I've created a spread sheet that compares transmissions to shift points and the expected RPM's and speed (in both Km/h and MPH) The program also compares tires and what effect they will have on your speedo. The F40 compared to a 5 speed Getrag offers an increase of approx. 30 mph in top speed ( if you can develop the hp) and approx. 300 rpm lower at cruise (60 mph). You will be shifting more often especially in city traffic because the first to fifth ratios are closer together than the the Getrag 5 speed. Only sixth gear give you the advantage. I cant figure out how to include the sheet so if you are interested let me know
SCReatta was wondering if you had the part # for the GM / Holden dual mass flywheel? I already bought the SPEC Aluminium Flywheel and clutch but if I ever decide to go a different route it would be nice to have other options.
