I have a 85 Fiero with a v6 and 4 speed manual. I’m having problems getting the transmission in gear. I’ve read some of the articles and thought I would try to bleed the clutch. First I tried gravity feed with the front wheels off of the ground. I didn’t get anything out of slave valve. I pressed the clutch pedal a few times and got 8-10 inches of fluid out the drain tube. After that the pedal had no resistance. The slave which was moving now has no travel. No matter how much I press the clutch pedal I don’t get any fluid out the slave. I tried compressing the slave but that only got a little more fluid. After that I couldn’t get any addition fluid pressing the pedal. I pulled the master and on the bench the first ½ to ¾ stroke did not release any fluid. After that I was able to get fluid after each compression. The fluid was black so I drain the mastert on the bench the re-filled it and bleed it on the bench. I put it back into the car and still cannot get any gravity bleed. Pressing the peddle still does not release any fluid at the slave. Why would I not get any fluid out the slave valve if I’m pressing the clutch? That just seems crazy. Could the master not be pushing enough fluid once installed? It works on the bench but once installed compression doesn’t push any fluid to the slave.
Only raise the left front wheel off the ground. Not both. The purpose of this is two-fold. It gets the master cylinder higher than the slave and it tips the bleeder end of the slave so that it's higher than the pushrod end.
Now that you've bench bled the MC and have it installed, jack up the car as described above. Open the MC reservoir and fill it completely to the top and leave the cap off. Do not touch the brake pedal.
It's a slow process, but open the bleeder valve on the slave. You can even totally remove it at this point. The fluid level should slowly start to drop in the MC reservoir. Each time it reaches the LOW mark, top it off again.
Once you have a solid stream of fluid coming from the slave, reinstall the bleeder, but don't tighten. Tap the side of the bleeder with a heavy metal object.
Top off the MC reservoir, and let the fluid slowly drop down to the FULL mark, close the slave bleeder, install the MC cap and you should have brakes.
After 1 hour of trying to gravity bleed not 1 drop has come through. My understanding is the gravity feed should allow the system to completely flush all air. Shouldn't pressing the cluth also move the fluid through the system? I'm not getting a drop from the MC when pressing the clultch. Should I see some movement of fluid when pressing the clutch.
Secondly I've seen some comments that the clutch pedal should be an inch above the brake. I found that mine is even, but when I disconnect the clutch pedal from the MC push rod it does have about 1 more inch of travel above the brake pedal. Is the 1 inch above the brake pedal a real concern. If so then then push rod on the MC isn't long enough. The MC has been changed and I no longer have the original MC and push rod.
The MC pushrod can be upside down and that can decrease the pedal travel. Banjo up. The clutch pedal bracket itself can be bent.
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The low pedal can be fixed by straitening the clutch pedal or making the pushrod longer. Rodney Dickman sells adjustable MC pushrods. http://rodneydickman.com - Make sure however that the MC is at it's full rest position when the pedal is at rest. The MC has a bypass port that needs to be open when the pedal is at rest. That port is covered up at the first movement of the MC piston into the bore.
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With fluid in the MC with the bleeder closed try pumping the clutch pedal a few times quickly and then hold the pedal to the floor. With the pedal held to the floor crack the bleeder and then close it again. Try this procedure a few times to see if it gets the fluid flowing. Pumping the pedal can cause problems bleeding later in the bleeding process so once you get the fluid flowing then don't pump it.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-24-2013).]
1. The clutch pedal being level with the brake pedal is definitely a problem. This is often caused by wear on the banjo loop. If you can move the clutch up and down with your fingers, here is the fix. Buy Rodney's adjustable banjo. It should be not only snug, but also under a bit of hydraulic pressure all the time to ensure a full throw.
2. There is no good way to bleed the master except through the slave bleeder valve. You raise the back end of the car down on the pedal with the valve open, up with it closed. It will take allot of pumps.
3. The slave holds bubbles at the piston end, so you have to depress the slave plunger by hand with the valve open, Close the valve and let it go foward slowly. Repeat until you don't get bubbles. Another way is to disconnect it and turn it vertacle to do it, but that is a very trick thing to get right and you are better off lifting the rear left corner of the car to tilt it.
4. you will want about 1&1/4 in. of movement of the plunger to get full actuation of the clutch.
How do I know this? My 3.65 Muncie 4 speed educational trial and error.
The push rod is not bent nor is the mounting bracket, which lead me to the comment about the pedal height and rod length. That's more of a secondary issue at this point. Before all this the car had been running without problems. Then very quickly it degraded to not allow the transmission to get into 1st or 2nd Gear.
With the MC open, slave valve open I cannot get any fluid to flow. After all this I again tried to push the clutch and got a little out of the slave. I also tried compresing the slave and got some fuild and a little air. Each time I'm opening the value on compression and closing it on release. After that still no gravity bleed, and no slave movement. Before I started to do the bleed I did have slave movement, but not sure if it was an inch or more. Now I don't have any pressure on the clutch pedal or movement on the slave. To me that means the system is still not bleed out yet.
Secondly I've seen some comments that the clutch pedal should be an inch above the brake. I found that mine is even, but when I disconnect the clutch pedal from the MC push rod it does have about 1 more inch of travel above the brake pedal. Is the 1 inch above the brake pedal a real concern. If so then then push rod on the MC isn't long enough. The MC has been changed and I no longer have the original MC and push rod.
I have seen clutch master cylinders with supplied banjos that are shorter than others. I've remedied this by making my own adjustable banjo (similar to what Rodney Dickman sells). This is done by cutting it in half and threading the banjo rod and then using a 5/16"x18 coupler.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2016).]
With the MC open, slave valve open I cannot get any fluid to flow.
I'm getting a disconnect. the MC has a cap on the reservoir. Is that what is open?
If so there is the possibility that at some point the fluid was too low in the reservoir and introduced a big air bubble into the line. Once that happens, you can't resolve the issue by benching the MC. You literally have to pump the bubble right through the system to the slave valve.
the other way is to have a bleeder gun and suck it through.
If you are pumping the MC to bleed the system, you need to have the slave elevated higher than the MC. There is no other way to get it done. Also, as I mentioned, the bubbles will gather at the plunger side of the slave so you actually need to have the rear left up in the air.
If your banjo bolt is in any way loose, or not long enough you can't get the 1.25" of throw you need for the release lever on the tranny.
If you don't have someone to assist you, you can use a broom handle to actuate the pedal and jam it against the head rest so you can work the bleeder.
I've been attempting to bleed this out for a few days now. There first day I got about 8-10 inches of fluid out the slave. After that pressing the cluth did not move any fluid out the slave. I tried pressing the slave and got a bit more. A couple days later I was able to get some fluid out the slave by pressing the clutch. Again after a 2-3 times nothing more would come out. The fluid level in the master has never gone low. I did remove the MC and bleed it, though. If there is air in the line how many cycles of the MC would be needed to move the fluid all the way through the system? Should I be able to see the MC fluid go down on each pedal depression? I'm not seeing any lowering of fluid in the MC.
I bled my 85GT 5 years ago and have not had to since. What I did required two people to do it like when you do the pump and hold method. However I did not do it by pumping the master. If your rubber bellows inside the master is good this way worked great for me. I have someone run the bleeder on the slave for me. First I had the left side of the car higher than the right side. Using a can of dust off I'd fill the master and put the cap back on. I'd tell the helper to open the bleeder and I would press the dust off spout against the vent hold on top of the master cap and apply air. As soon as the fluid stopped coming out the bleeder the helper would close it. I'd check the master and it would the bellow would be bottomed out. Topped it off and repeated. Three times and I had great peddle.
However if your master or slave seals are not in good shape then very few ways of bleeding will work for you. I put rebuild kits in both my master and my slave at the time. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-082567.html
[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-24-2013).]
Old bleeder valves that have been missing the rubber cap for any period of time can collect water down inside the bleeder hole. The bleeder will rust inside. Totally remove the bleeder valve, and try gravity bleeding the system as I detailed, or if you prefer the pumping method, be sure that the two small holes at the bottom sides of the bleeder valve are open and will allow fluid to pass out the top. Maybe this is why you aren't getting fluid to flow through.
Old bleeder valves that have been missing the rubber cap for any period of time can collect water down inside the bleeder hole. The bleeder will rust inside. Totally remove the bleeder valve, and try gravity bleeding the system as I detailed, or if you prefer the pumping method, be sure that the two small holes at the bottom sides of the bleeder valve are open and will allow fluid to pass out the top. Maybe this is why you aren't getting fluid to flow through.
I would do that first before doing anything else, but I do have one question, has the MC been bleed? are they not like the brake MC? hey its been a while and my memory is shot so don't shoot the messenger. easy to do the same way you would bleed the brake MC. that would tell you if you have a bad MC or a bad line between it and the slave anyway.
Oops just reread the OPs first post but it doesn't say you re-bleed the MC after putting it in, you could have an air bubble from when you went from the vise/bench bleeding to the install, especially if you did not plug the line hole while installing it.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-25-2013).]
I bled my 85GT 5 years ago and have not had to since. What I did required two people to do it like when you do the pump and hold method. However I did not do it by pumping the master. If your rubber bellows inside the master is good this way worked great for me. I have someone run the bleeder on the slave for me. First I had the left side of the car higher than the right side. Using a can of dust off I'd fill the master and put the cap back on. I'd tell the helper to open the bleeder and I would press the dust off spout against the vent hold on top of the master cap and apply air. As soon as the fluid stopped coming out the bleeder the helper would close it. I'd check the master and it would the bellow would be bottomed out. Topped it off and repeated. Three times and I had great peddle.
However if your master or slave seals are not in good shape then very few ways of bleeding will work for you. I put rebuild kits in both my master and my slave at the time. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-082567.html
That's a pretty slick method. Did you have to use a modified cap to do this?
Very slick indeed. A do-it-yourself pressure bleeder. I've recently replaced my clutch master and think that I may not have gotten all the air out of the system. I kept the old master cylinder so I've got an extra cap to play with. Thanks for the idea.
I think i got this on this site but how i bled my whole system was to hook a hose from the bleeder on the slave to a vacume port on the engine start the engine and crack the bleeder open and push the slave piston all the way in just make sure you dont run the master out of fluid close bleeder and repeat this worked great i have the best working clutch i ever had in a car
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 11-25-2013).]
No luck yet. My MC cap doesn't have a vent hole. I got a rubber gasket and cut a hole in an old coffe can lid to hold down the gasket. I couldn't get enough pressure to get the fluid to flow, as I couldn't hold the gasket tight enough. Local shops don't have the MC caps. I've seen them online. How about a bleeder gun at the slave. This should work the same as the vacum at the slave.
On the pedal being an inch above the brake doesn't seem to add up. The pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor currently. The pedal distance will only be as long as the MC stroke. It shouldn't matter if you start with the pedal higher or lower if your getting a full stroke of the MC. Is there a spec on how far the MC stroke needs to been. If the slave and MC have the same bore then it would be the same distance. This doesn't seem to be true since the clutch pedal moves a lot further than the 1" for the slave spec. The spec for the MC should be the amount of fluid it pushes not distance.
Seems like the 1" may be fictional since the clutch bracket has about 1" of additional travel that the MC doesn't use.
The clutch pedal actuates all the way to the floor. The stroke is allot longer than the slave stroke. The slave stroke is 1.25" but haven't measured the pedal
If your pedal won't go to the floor you have a mechanical problem. Your banjo could be bottoming out but I doubt it. Again, you need a full MC stroke to move your slave stroke the required distance to gain full disengagement of the disk
You're looking at pedal stroke at the rubber foot pad? Yes, that would move much further than the slave stroke. Reason being is that the actuating MC push rod is mounted much further up the pedal arm, closer to the fulcrum point. If it were attached at the fulcrum point, there would be no movement and it increases as the attachment point moves further out from the fulcrum point of the pedal.
It's very easy, take the cap off the clutch master cylinder, one person pumps clutch pedal, watch to see if air bubbles come up through the clutch master, top it up, put cap back on, pump it up for a few minutes, takes cap off, pump slowly with cap off, if there is air in the system it will escape from the master, like taking the cap off a bottle of pop, it is time consuming way to do it but you will get most of the large bubbles out of the front section, then wait an hour and bleed the slave, I hold my thumb on the slave valve the same way you would on the end of a garden hose when you wash your car, pinch it off to build pressure.
After you do that, if the master fluid level drops, top it up, if you are still getting tiny bubbles at the master than the line is sucking air, probably the metal crimps on the flex line, they rust, RD sells a replacement flex line with a compression fitting.
I couldn't get the system to bleed so I bought a hand pump. I dropped the line from the slave and connected to it. I got a lot of air, most likely the air was from all the previous tries. When I first started I got fluid out easily by pressing the cluth pedal. I pulled the slave in by using a piece of wood behind the cluth arm and tied it off to the engine. I reconnected the line and let it sit over night since I couldn't get any fluid out of the bleeder valve. Next day I rapped the bleeder valve with some teflon tape and buy just craking it slightly was able to pull through a lot fo fluid. Now I'm back to where I started. This time I've measured the travel of the slave and it's only about 1/2 ". I don't know how much I had originally, The slave doesn't look that easy to remove since it's mounted from the engine side. Who the heck would design something like that ! Looks like I'll start by replacing the MC.
Did you ever get your clutch pedal to be 1" higher than the brake? That 1" will make a difference. If your pedal is straight and the pushrod isn't bent then perhaps the low starting point for the clutch pedal is the MC.
Originally posted by johnfiero: The slave doesn't look that easy to remove since it's mounted from the engine side. Who the heck would design something like that ! Looks like I'll start by replacing the MC.
There's your problem, right there. Don't replace the MC. You have a Getrag slave on it. Your slave should look like this and should be mounted from the drivers side. The pushrod should be about 5 3/4 long.
If I disconnect the MC from the pedal it has about 1" more that the MC is not using. The push rod will not retract back the extra inch nor doesthe pedal extend all the way to the floor. Unless this is completely the wrong part there isn't any further travel in the MC. This brings me to my point that isn't the amount of fluid pushed through the MC the driving factor. The displacement in fluid determines how much pressure it will provide to the slave? Are all MC bore the same size if so then the travel distance does matter? If not then it has to come back to the amount of displaced fluid.
My slave has 4 1/2" extension when at rest That's probable affected by the amount of pressure in the system. Is there any pressure in the MC or slave when at rest? Both parts had been installed and working for 7,000 miles, and 4 years. I did not see any fluid leaks nor was the MC ever low.
The slave does mount as you show. The nuts go on the backside of the mount which has a heat shield covering most of it. Trying to get a wrench on the nuts doesn't seem possible.
When at rest, the MC or slave has no pressure on them. The small spring inside the slave exerts a small amount of force against the piston and pushrod for the purpose of keeping the pushrod seated in the clutch release fork on the transmission. There's also a spring inside the MC that will bring the piston back to a pre-determined location. The amount of pushrod visible beyond the the end of the slave will vary depending upon the clutch assembly you have and the amount of wear incurred by the flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate, so the 4 1/2 inch extension really doesn't mean a lot. The stock Getrag slave pushrod is only 3 1/2 inches long and the slave itself is only 4 1/4 inches.
If the bores of both MC and slave are the same, fluid displaced in one will move the piston in the other the same distance as was required by the MC.
For a moment, let's assume the piston in the MC moves 2 inches. Larger MC bore/smaller slave bore will move the slave piston more than 2 iches. Smaller MC bore/larger slave bore will move the slave piston less than 2 inches. With that assumption, the Getrag slave is a shorter slave, but still must travel the 2 inches. Since the pistons inside the Muncie/Isuzu slave won't fit a stock Getrag slave, I would think the bores are different as well as the bores of the MC.
Neither the MC nor the slave piston/pushrod should be at the extreme limits of travel at either end of the bore. Bottoming out either can damage them. At the end of the MC bore is a port that allows fluid pressures to neutralize throughout the system. Bringing the piston back too far or not far enough can defeat this purpose.
Yes, removing the slave can be difficult. It's best accomplished by using an offset box end wrench and loosening the forward most nut enough to tip the heat shield once the rearward nut is loose. Don't be tempted to leave the heat shield off. You'll quickly learn that air in the system doesn't always come from a leak. Because of the close quarters on that end is why I use the gravity bleed method I described. The heatshield also installs between the bracket and the nut, not between the bracket and slave. This is the Rodney Dickman Getrag slave as it's mounted.
Now that makes sense. The pedal 1" above the brake is not relevant. The volume in must equal volume out. Thus the amount out of the MC must equal the total needed to move the slave the 1+ inch.
The initial problem was I couldn't get into 1st or 2nd gear. I should have measured the slave travel when I started but I didn't. After getting the system bleed out, I'm only getting 1/2 “of travel out of the slave. Unless there is something in the clutch, transmission or I didn't bleed right, then I need to get the 1" out of the slave. That leave just 3 things it could be: MC, line, slave. The line seems fine. That then brings me to the MC or slave.
I don't think I have the Getrag slave since my slave is more like the first picture with the green background. Thus the mounting nuts are under the shield next to the rod. The reverse of what you show with the getrag. First thing first. Mastor or slave or ? Where do I start? I'm fairly certain there isn't any air in the line. If it's the MC or slave they sure didn't last all that long (4 yrs/ 7,000 mi).
If you had parts from the local discount parts house, you got good service at 4 years. Consider ordering Rodney Dickman's MC and Slave for the V6 4-speed. First Generation MC and Muncie/Isuzu slave. Costs a little more, but if you plan to keep the car, you'll certainly get your money's worth.
Install the slave first. If that solves the problem, I'm sure Rodney would accept the MC as a return, so long as it's clean and unused. If the slave alone doesn't solve the problem, then install the MC. If those don't fix it, then you're doing something wrong. Find another Fiero owner to physically help you.
Just can seem to get the slave off due to clearance around the back bolt. The mounting plate is tiltled back over the nut so a long socket won't go on the nut. A short socket does clear the bolt thread. There isn't enough room for a box rench. Would it be a problem to cut the heat shield, pry it back then get a box rench on the nut. After replacing the slave I could then bend the heat shield back to cover the rod. The mounting is a little different than your picture. If there is a way to post a picture I have one. I only see a way to attach a link to a web site and not to include a picture.
The picture I posted of the slave and mount is a Getrag. It's different from the Muncie 4-speed slave mount. If you try to access the nut from the lower front, it may be easier. A double offset box end like I have makes it much easier. You can also press down on the heat shield near the bleeder end and get a little more clearance on the other. As an alternative method, you can remove the 2 bolts that hold the slave mount to the engine. I think the horizontal one is something like 21mm.
If you can't get PIP to work for you, send the picture to my email and I'll post it for you.
That looks familiar. If you want to remove the slave, I have discovered the best way is to remove the bracket from the tranny, not the slave from the bracket. The 2 bolts for the bracket are 15mm heads and undo pretty easily. I use a pair of 6" vice grips and some wire to hold the plunger rod in.
I recommend using a pressure bleeder. I have one of these, but I'd actually recommend one of these, because it has an additional adapter that will work on many (including Fiero) brake master cylinders.
When I used my Formula as a daily driver in the Summer heat of Atlanta, my clutch system would fail about every 3 years. I think the combination of heat and dirt would cause the slave cylinder to start leaking. I would fix it as follows: - Empty the system of fluid - Disassemble and clean the master & slave cylinders - Lightly hone the master & slave cylinders - Clean everything out again - Re-assemble everything - Bleed system with pressure bleeder.
It would take about 15 minutes to get the pressure bleeder set up. Then it would take about 10 seconds to bleed it. The only trick is to make sure to loosen the slave and tilt it so that the bleed screw is at the highest point. Otherwise, you'll never get all the air out.
That looks familiar. If you want to remove the slave, I have discovered the best way is to remove the bracket from the tranny, not the slave from the bracket. The 2 bolts for the bracket are 15mm heads and undo pretty easily. I use a pair of 6" vice grips and some wire to hold the plunger rod in.
Arn
I was removing mine (85GT) often at the beginning so I removed the studs from the slave and welded two bolts to a U shaped piece. (to clear the shaft) This allowed me to put the nuts on the drivers side and not have them spin. Made pulling the slave so much quicker and easier.
Yahoo, I've got progress. I finally decided to try replacing the MC. Once I did I raised the car up as I had before but this time I was able to do the gravity bleed. With the slave bleeder open a 1/4 turn it took about 40 minutes to run through 3 reservoirs of fluid. I checked the slave movement but was still only getting about 1/2 " of travel. The difference now was that I have some resistance on the clutch pedal. I got the MC from Rodney Dickman. It was the one with the adjustable rod length. I turned it out 3 turns and now I have a solid 7/8" of travel on the slave. Buttoned everything up and went out and back to see how it would work. Shifting was a dream once again. I made a couple of stops. After the first stop I couldn't get the ignition to turn over. Tried again it worked. Drove a few miles and stop/ shut off the car. Started back up and ran ok all the way to the house. I shut the car off, but now can’t start it. Luckily it was in driveway and I pushed it into the garage.
Is there some adjustment needed if the pedal is sitting higher. I'm thinking the car isn't recognizing the pedal in depressed allowing the engine to turn over. Isn't there a switch that recognize if the clutch pedal is pressed to start the car? Could lengthening the MC push rod of damage the switch?
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Consider ordering Rodney Dickman's MC and Slave for the V6 4-speed. First Generation MC and Muncie/Isuzu slave. Costs a little more, but if you plan to keep the car, you'll certainly get your money's worth. 
