Hey guys, I know a lot of people are upgrading to the 7730 ECM (?)... but I was wondering if there isn't a better system, like maybe an aftermarket kit like a Holley ProJection oro something like that? I don't know what the newest one is... but I know there's a lot of kits out there that you can use to basically drop onto a carbureted V8 and magically you have a self-tuning computer controlled V8 with OBD2. Most of these kits are made to be used with HEI distributors too.

Is there anything that we can adapt to the Pontiac Fiero V6 engine? I can live with installing a MAF sensor if I need to. Anyway, just curious...


Thanks!

Most aftermarket ECM's don't have the reliability or fail safes that the factory ECMs have. With current tuning packages, you can dial in most combinations for good drivability, power, and economy with a factory OBD2 ecm and one of the available tuning packages.

I wouldn't shy away from the MAF either as they are super simple to tune vs. dialing in a Speed Density table. The old days where MAF's were a restriction are long gone and now the same MAF card style sensor is used with the ecotec as well as the LS7 and they cost less than $50.

Add a cam and crank sensor and you can run an OBD2 ecm on an older ODB1 application. I am in the process of doing a 86-91 SBC swap using the LS1 ecm, LS7 MAF, and LS4 coil per plug setup.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-21-2013).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Most aftermarket ECM's don't have the reliability or fail safes that the factory ECMs have. With current tuning packages, you can dial in most combinations for good drivability, power, and economy with a factory OBD2 ecm and one of the available tuning packages. I wouldn't shy away from the MAF either as they are super simple to tune vs. dialing in a Speed Density table. The old days where they were MAF's were a restriction are long gone and now the same MAF card style sensor is used with the ecotec as well as the LS7 and they cost less than $50. Add a cam and crank sensor and you can run an OBD2 ecm on an older ODB1 application. I am in the process of doing a 86-91 SBC swap using the LS1 ecm, LS7 MAF, and LS4 coil per plug setup.

Thanks FieroGuru... I was trying to search for stuff, and mostly comming up empty-handed, but I ran across this:

FAST 302000 - FAST EZ-EFI Multiport Retrofit Kit

http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/...entProductId=1321863




...and needless to say, I'm starting to get pretty excited.

It says it's compatible with the TPI engine (as one of the motors it lists). The TPI motor is basically more or less like a V8 version of our V6 motor (aside from the obvious differences, it's basically the same technology, MPFI w/ distributor w/MAP system.

It's important to me because I really want the driveability of a newer system, and something I can tune easily myself, AND... something that I can swap in there that will look stock.

I'm going to do a bit more research on this and see if it'll work.

The whole kit is under $900 bucks too!

Nice to see people get excited about Fiero things. Just remember, at the end of the day with your bank account lighter by $1,000.00 you will have the same horsepower as when you started. Larry

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: Nice to see people get excited about Fiero things. Just remember, at the end of the day with your bank account lighter by $1,000.00 you will have the same horsepower as when you started. Larry

No, I definitely won't... I'll have a ton more.

I've got a V6/60 that I've dropped 3.1 crank and rods into with .040 hypertectic pistons. I've also got a Crane H272 cam with 1.52:1 roller rockers, 17# Accel fuel injectors, everything port and polished, a decent exhaust, and a bored throttle body (to 57mm) with matched intake plenum. It also has a few other odds and ends like underdrive pulleys and an Accel coil... I've also done a manual 5-Speed Getrag swap.

For one, it doesn't run right now at all... and before the 5-Speed swap, it didn't run all that great when it was still an automatic. It would lay rubber up until 3,000 rpms and then it would just fall flat. That was with a really crappy cam.

Needless to say though, this computer system will give me:

1 - Seamless performance, no idle issues, no hunting idle, no hesitation anywhere.
2 - Faster ECM performance
3 - Improved fuel economy
4 - Improved emissions
5 - Brand new engine wiring harness
6 - Improved reliability
7 - Improved starts


I can't emphesize it enough, this will make my car actually run like it should... and it's something I can just hop into and not have to really worry about it. It really simplifies the ECM. I think it also has provisions for a knock sensor too if I want to use it.

I can also get rid of the cold start injector.

It doesn't control timing...

quote The EZ-EFI also doesn't control ignition timing,

quote Beyond the EZ-EFI, there is the XFI system. This step is usually chosen if the user wants to have complete control over his tuning, or he wants timing control.

Here is an article where they installed the same system on a ford and mentioned the lack of timing control.
http://www.musclemustangfas...d_setup/viewall.html

Once you find an aftermarket controller that does both fuel and spark, then start comparing the resolution in the tables. The larger the resolution, the closer you can dial in the tune, which helps with drivability. I have used older Holley Projection and Edelbrock Pro-Flo setups and your stock fiero ECM has about 10-20 times the resolution in fueling and spark...

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: It doesn't control timing... Here is an article where they installed the same system on a ford and mentioned the lack of timing control. http://www.musclemustangfas...d_setup/viewall.html Once you find an aftermarket controller that does both fuel and spark, then start comparing the resolution in the tables. The larger the resolution, the closer you can dial in the tune, which helps with drivability. I have used older Holley Projection and Edelbrock Pro-Flo setups and your stock fiero ECM has about 10-20 times the resolution in fueling and spark...

Thanks for that link, there are some good pictures in there. I know those old fuel injection kits like the Holley ProJection are really, really slow. This kit is apparently only a few years old (debuted in 2009) so it's a bit faster than some of those kits that were originally designed in the mid 90s.


But just to be clear,will it work with the factory distributor. Basically, I want to keep my car looking as stock as possible, so I really do want to keep my distributor...


EDIT: Or, am I confused? When you say it doesn't control timing, are you saying that I cannot use my factory distributor / ignition control module?


EDIT: Ok, there's a newer version of this kit called "EZ-EFI 2.0® Self Tuning Engine Control System - Multi-Port Retro-Fit Type" It's basically the same thing but it DOES support timing control.


I'm really starting to get confused though, do you (or anyone else) know what kind of distributor we have on our Fieros? I know absolutely it's not a mechanical/points... but it does have an ignition control module.

The instructions for the one that does support timing references a few different kinds, it says:


"Ignition system – In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing (optional) on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from either a crank trigger or a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup. The EZ-EFI® system and wiring harness are set up to be plug-and-play with our FAST™ Crank Trigger kits or Dual Sync Distributors. A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."

Does the Fiero distributor match anything in that description? Thanks for your help...

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-21-2013).]

You will be disappointed with your results. Larry

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm so excited right now... seriously, it's almost like the feeling you get when you're about ready to "seal the deal" for the first time with a new girl you've been dating.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Or, am I confused? When you say it doesn't control timing, are you saying that I cannot use my factory distributor / ignition control module?

...this was the moment when you were about to "seal the deal"....and then the girlfriends parents unexpectedly came home....

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: In short, I no longer have to mess with, or worry about the ECM...

That is potentially a very expensive assumption. Your current issues with your combo might not be ecm related, if that is the case, then the new ecm will just be wasted $. If this self-tuning one can't auto correct for your combo, you are in a worse position than going with something you can tune/tweak.

Your camshaft is quite large and is recommended for cruise RPM in the 2600-3200 range and a minimum RPM of 1800. The camshaft has 4 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and that alone might cause some challenges. Overlap will cause an unstable idle and the opportunity for some lean surging at light throttle. Unless you have done the Dawg mod or are running a non-stock upper intake, you are likely killing the performance of the camshaft. These types of potential issues won't be fixed with an ecm change.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: EDIT: Or, am I confused? When you say it doesn't control timing, are you saying that I cannot use my factory distributor / ignition control module?

They say it doesn't control timing. If they allow you to use the stock EFI distributor, then they likely only have an RPM based timing, not Load & RPM based and you probably can't change the timing values.

Your best bet is to call them and see what it does, how it works, and if it works with the Fiero distributor.

When trying to tune a large camshaft, most of the tweaks for drivability are on the timing side... so you will want the most resolution possible on the timing side.

If you want to start working to get your current combo to run better, block off/remove the EGR (not needed with the overlap of your camshaft), pop out the cap for the throttle stop screw and adjust the base idle rpm with the IAC bottomed out to 50 RPM less than your desired idle speed. This adjustment will help limit IAC idle control and let timing do most of it. Then start logging the data to see what is going on and either start doing your own tuning or send the logged data to a tuning vendor for a tweak in the right direction. It might take 3 or 4 iterations, but each one will make the car run better.

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: You will be disappointed with your results. Larry

If it runs well with no issues, and tunes itself, why would I be dissapointed? I'm only expecting low 15s in the quarter kind of performance. I would be pleased with high 14s, but I just want it to run well.

quote Originally posted by Neils88: ...this was the moment when you were about to "seal the deal"....and then the girlfriends parents unexpectedly came home....

Hahah... I know... damn. There's still hope though... it looks like they have a newer version that does support timing. I'm just not sure how to do the wiring from an ignition control module, to what the distributor is providing.

But then again, I'm not even sure if the Fiero's timing is even controlled by the computer. I mean... it's a distributor... not a DIS...

When I look at this diagram:



I see there are four wires I need to worry about (the 4-pronged plug). That is the part that originally connects to the ECM. I see a reference, and a reference low. I'm assuming that "reference" means the engine location... if that's the case, I should be able to provide that to the new ECM?

The third wire is simply a by-pass to disable timing advance so I can set the distributor...

and then the fourth wire... is that to initiate some timing advance? Maybe the Fiero does have full ESC or something.

As P.T. Barnum said, their is a .... .... every minute and two to take him. Take it from an old guy, you will be sorry. Larry

quote Originally posted by fieroguru:They say it doesn't control timing. If they allow you to use the stock EFI distributor, then they likely only have an RPM based timing, not Load & RPM based and you probably can't change the timing values. Your best bet is to call them and see what it does, how it works, and if it works with the Fiero distributor.

Yeah, with the "2.0" version, it does control timing... so when I pick apart the paragraph:

quote "Ignition system – In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing (optional) on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from either a crank trigger or a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup. A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."

I know the Fiero's ignition control module does provide a reference signal... both normal and low. But as you say... it sounds like it's strictly based on RPM.

I'm not exactly sure what a "capacitive discharge ignition box" is either... I know the ignition coil is a capacitor... so maybe that's what they're referring to.

Yes, the Fiero ECM does adjust the ignition timing. The Fiero distributer can't run as a stand-alone unit. It needs external control (i.e. from the ECM).

If you want something that controls fuel and spark, and has self-tuning capability, you may want to look into the MegaSquirt stuff, for example this one: http://www.diyautotune.com/...mbled-kit-p-389.html

Edit to add: There's also a daughter-board available for the 7730 ECM that gives it self-tuning capability, and the 7165 ECM as well. See this thread for details: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/128614.html

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-21-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Yes, the Fiero ECM does adjust the ignition timing. The Fiero distributer can't run as a stand-alone unit. It needs external control (i.e. from the ECM).

Thanks Blacktree, the MegaSquirt looks awesome... but I notice they don't sell what "we" need pre-assembled... looks like I have to soldier all the joints! Ouch.

The second one looks interesting, I'm looking at that now.


Quick question though... would an MSD 6AL be able to control my timing for me? Let's say I went with the FAST system... would I be able to use the 6AL and have that control my timing? (and then of course, pass the reference signal back to the FAST ecm). Or does the 6AL only provide multiple spark discharge and nothing more / nothing less?

As far as I know, the MSD 6 series units don't adjust spark timing. So that can't be run as a stand-alone unit, either.

That said, if you're dead-set on using that FAST controller, you could probably get a vacuum-advance distributer from an old S10 pickup or something to run the ignition system.

Edit to add:

The Fiero evap canister is vacuum controlled. Swapping ECMs shouldn't affect its operation.

Also, FYI converting to sequential injection will require rewiring the injector circuitry. The Fiero fuel injection system is wired similar to a TBI system. It has two injector circuits, just like a TBI system. But each circuit has 3 injectors wired in parallel. You'll need to separate that into 6 circuits to use SFI.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-22-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: As far as I know, the MSD 6 series units don't adjust spark timing. So that can't be run as a stand-alone unit, either. That said, if you're dead-set on using that FAST controller, you could probably get a vacuum-advance distributer from an old S10 pickup or something to run the ignition system. Edit to add: The Fiero evap canister is vacuum controlled. Swapping ECMs shouldn't affect its operation. Also, FYI converting to sequential injection will require rewiring the injector circuitry. The Fiero fuel injection system is wired similar to a TBI system. It has two injector circuits, just like a TBI system. But each circuit has 3 injectors wired in parallel. You'll need to separate that into 6 circuits to use SFI.

Thanks Blacktree, but does the evap canister get it's vacuum from the vacuum controller that sits in front of the motor on the passenger side?

As far as the injector wiring, the FAST system comes complete with it's own harness. That is the part that is still really enticing me... that I basically get a whole new wiring harness and it comes pre-wired to replace everything that I already have, with the factory plug harnesses too. Essentially, with the exception of the distributor, I can basically make the engine look 100% stock.

I guess it eliminates the EGR though since it no longer needs it, but I wonder what effect it will have on my cruise control? That's vacuum controlled too I think, so it should just work?

I think the vacuum controller you mentioned is the EGR solenoid. It doesn't control the evap canister. The vacuum signal for the evap canister comes straight from the throttle body.

I think the comment about evap canister operation was regarding engines with electronically controlled evap canisters. Because nowadays, that's the norm. The FAST unit probably doesn't have programming for that.

Regarding the EGR, you could probably go old-skool with a vacuum operated unit... or just delete it.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I think the vacuum controller you mentioned is the EGR solenoid. It doesn't control the evap canister. The vacuum signal for the evap canister comes straight from the throttle body. I think the comment about evap canister operation was regarding engines with electronically controlled evap canisters. Because nowadays, that's the norm. The FAST unit probably doesn't have programming for that. Regarding the EGR, you could probably go old-skool with a vacuum operated unit... or just delete it.

Thanks BlackTree, I really appreciate the back and forth, this is helping me out immensely.

Our EGR systems in the Fiero are vacuum controlled, aren't they? So I guess I could really just leave it like it is???

Edit, oh wait, the vacuum regulator is what signals the EGR to open. Ok... makes sense. I guess to make it old-school vacuum would simply be to install some sort of vacuum sensor? At what point would the EGR need to open?

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-22-2013).]

One thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that almost all the aftermarket fuel injection control systems are only DOT approved for off-road (aka track) use. Depending on your location, and what sort of testing has to be done on your car there, it may or may not be easy to get away with using it on a registered road vehicle. Yeah, I know you might say "but we don't have emissions testing here, blah blah" but it doesn't change the fact that it would be illegal, or that it's worth pointing out that they are only approved for off-road use.

Also, as I'm sure your already aware, aftermarket engine management systems can be quite pricey, especially on systems that have more modern features, like support for coil-per-plug DIS, CAN, and such. If you're not doing a fairly significant engine swap, one has to consider if it's worth $1200-2500 for an aftermarket ECM to run a stock engine in a Fiero. The 7730 swap is good, because it's cheap, relatively easy, and allows use of many basic features on the newer engines, without a lot of expensive additional equipment. An aftermaerket system can get quite pricey very quickly, especially when you have to get an aftermarket distributor, ignition system, and extra sensors.

www.dynamicefi.com

I already asked Bob about it on thirdgen.org, and he said the original EBL in port mode or the P4 EBL will run the engine no problem. The EBL replaces part of the stock ecm (the daughterboard) and adds a lot of tuning capability. You can datalog off sensors (including adding fuel pressure, oil temp, etc.), add boost, n2o, shift light, and it also adds built in flash capability (tune it via laptop in the car). It learns off wideband or narrowband, and the best part is you don't have to rewire everything, just runs off the stock harness. For the EBL and the wideband kit (TT-1) I believe you're around $650-750 from those guys. I'm running it on a 383 with Vortec heads, a mild cam, 454 throttle body and a carbed intake, 20,000 miles so far

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Edit, oh wait, the vacuum regulator is what signals the EGR to open. Ok... makes sense. I guess to make it old-school vacuum would simply be to install some sort of vacuum sensor? At what point would the EGR need to open?

Yeah, the Fiero V6 EGR is a hybrid electronic/vacuum unit. It's a vacuum operated EGR valve with a computer controlled vacuum solenoid piggybacked onto it. I would think that one could ditch the computer control and run it on ported vacuum. But I haven't actually done that, so am not sure how well it would work. But FYI that's how the EGR on the Duke is setup; no computer control, just ported vacuum.

Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about EGR valves, cuz I usually delete them.

quote Originally posted by dobey: One thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that almost all the aftermarket fuel injection control systems are only DOT approved for off-road (aka track) use. Depending on your location, and what sort of testing has to be done on your car there, it may or may not be easy to get away with using it on a registered road vehicle. Yeah, I know you might say "but we don't have emissions testing here, blah blah" but it doesn't change the fact that it would be illegal, or that it's worth pointing out that they are only approved for off-road use. Also, as I'm sure your already aware, aftermarket engine management systems can be quite pricey, especially on systems that have more modern features, like support for coil-per-plug DIS, CAN, and such. If you're not doing a fairly significant engine swap, one has to consider if it's worth $1200-2500 for an aftermarket ECM to run a stock engine in a Fiero. The 7730 swap is good, because it's cheap, relatively easy, and allows use of many basic features on the newer engines, without a lot of expensive additional equipment. An aftermaerket system can get quite pricey very quickly, especially when you have to get an aftermarket distributor, ignition system, and extra sensors.

This I can answer very easily.

In Florida, there is no emissions testing, but beyond that... I'm only concerned with making sure that it meets or exceeds the emissions standards that the factory vehicle had. I intend to keep a catalytic converter on there, and to be honest, every review I've read suggests the emissions are better. I'd like to keep my EGR too.

As for the cost... I have a lot of respect for the 7730... but I've got to be honest... the last thing I want to do is data-logging, updating, modifying. There was a time where I was ok with that, but I really just want a good, reliable solution. My Fiero is in really good shape... no rust, and no damage. But the wiring is at best ~27 years old now. At this point, it's beyond what I would reasonably consider reliable... even in the slightest. If I can install this kit in my car and have it manage my computer in such a way that I'll get 99% of the maximum engine efficiency that I would otherwise be getting from piecing together and sourcing parts for a 7730 and Metasploit ECM, etc... I will be a happy, happy camper. My Fiero has been on the back burner for the last decade. I've driven it maybe 3 times since 2000. A couple of years ago, I started a complete tear-down and restoration: http://www.pontiacperforman...et/car87FieroSE.html I got maybe 50% through the car before I relocated for a job. I want to get this thing together, and I want to have fun with it. The best part about it, is that it comes with all new wiring. If I do this right, I'll get self-tuning capability with excellent drivability.

The only "snag" I've got right now is making a decision on which way to go for ignition control. The Gen 1 system from 2009 costs ~$850 from most retailers which comes with the ECM, a whole new harness, and etc. The new one gives me everything Gen 1 does, but also converts to Sequential Port Fuel Injection, and allows control of a distributor. That one is $1,200 bucks.

My engine by no means is an Olds 455 big block, but it's also not a stock Fiero motor either. It's a 3.2 liter w/ H272 cam and a few other odds and ends.

quote Originally posted by Doober: www.dynamicefi.com I already asked Bob about it on thirdgen.org, and he said the original EBL in port mode or the P4 EBL will run the engine no problem. The EBL replaces part of the stock ecm (the daughterboard) and adds a lot of tuning capability. You can datalog off sensors (including adding fuel pressure, oil temp, etc.), add boost, n2o, shift light, and it also adds built in flash capability (tune it via laptop in the car). It learns off wideband or narrowband, and the best part is you don't have to rewire everything, just runs off the stock harness. For the EBL and the wideband kit (TT-1) I believe you're around $650-750 from those guys. I'm running it on a 383 with Vortec heads, a mild cam, 454 throttle body and a carbed intake, 20,000 miles so far

Thanks Doober, it looks like a really cool setup, I'm just not sure I want to re-use the old harness anymore.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-22-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: …but I've got to be honest... the last thing I want to do is data-logging, updating, modifying.

What exactly about the aftermarket ECMs makes you think you won't have to do these things? Unless you get the correct tune flashed in the first time, you're going to have to see what's going on, modify the tune, and flash the ECM again. This is true, regardless of whether you use a 7730 or an aftermarket system. The only systems I've seen that do auto-learn and don't require any programming at all, are the new systems from MSD/Accel/etc… for the LSx engines, that start around $2500.

The 7730 might actually be easier in that respect, because you can just get a tune from DarthFiero by telling him you have a 3.2 with the H272 cam, for whatever he charges to do that. You of course also have the option of tuning yourself. But if you don't want to spend the time doing it, then you're going to pay someone to do it, and for an aftermarket system, you're going to have to find someone near you who knows how to tune the system in question, and they're going to charge quite a bit, including dyno time.

EDIT: And I'm not trying to convince you to go with the 7730 or not. I was just providing some more information.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 12-22-2013).]

The FAST 2.0 is the latest design for self learn from FAST. The distributor timing and advance is controlled. Your stock distributor will work just fine. There is a simple feature to add vacuum advance curves without a vacuum advance distributor. This means it reads engine load not just rpm. It is a wide band sensor which means it can do a better job than a narrow band stock set up. Why would anyone think this will make the engine run "dirty" ? It will get you up and running quickly. When you learn more, you can go in and make changes to the programming with the hand help controller. You can actually make a lot of changes if you want. Big issue is you don't have to. You can program a valet setting so the car can't be abused by a parking attendant. Just a simple change on the hand held. It can save several programs. The best thing to do is go on line and look at the set up info supplied by FAST. Look at installation videos - there are plenty. There are a lot of opinions being expressed. You need to check facts yourself. It is going to be expensive but has a good warrantee. I have done a lot of research because I was burned on a Holley TBI. I didn't want another expensive lesson. My FAST EZ 2.0 is on back order. It's for roller cammed 427. They can't build them fast enough to fill the demand. That should tell you something. I hope you do your own research and trust yourself to make a decision that suits you. I like the Mega Squirt too but it isn't quite as user friendly. My son would argue that point with me though.

Woody

------------------
woodys 427

My Fiero has a bored 383 in it. It was broken in on the Dyno at 320hp and 410 torque. I used a 650 CFM Edelbrock carb and with an early seventies block and heads I use regular gas. I had lot's of drivability issues and if parked for a short trip into a store or a long gas fill up it would be very hard to start apparently with excess heat in the carb causing fuel to boil over and flood the engine. More than a year ago I changed to the FAST TBI system. It works just like advertised. Now remember this is a throttle body system that replaces the carb so somewhat simpler. I was skeptical but installed it as directed, made the entries asked for in the handheld controller such as number of cylinders, cubic inches, desired idle, etc. It started right up and I love it. When I have had questions there support people seem to know their stuff.

quote Originally posted by dobey: What exactly about the aftermarket ECMs makes you think you won't have to do these things?

Because that is exactly it... it does it all for me. It's a self-learning system meant to optimize the air/fuel ratio. I can change these things slightly, but it tries to keep air/fuel at 14 in idle, 13.9 in normal driving, and 13.8 at WOT, based on what I've read, and the experiences I've read from others.

I can modify my settings using the hand-held... but it does 99% of the learning for me.

I'd love to go with the 7730, but I don't want to have to build my own harness and do a bunch of custom stuff. I'm not averse to the work, I just don't want to have something that I have to fiddle with. With kids, a project house, work, etc... I find myself with less and less time. I'm much more willing to spend the extra $500 dollars to have someone do everything for me, knowing it'll work well.

quote Originally posted by woodyhere: The FAST 2.0 is the latest design for self learn from FAST. The distributor timing and advance is controlled. Your stock distributor will work just fine. There is a simple feature to add vacuum advance curves without a vacuum advance distributor. This means it reads engine load not just rpm. It is a wide band sensor which means it can do a better job than a narrow band stock set up. Why would anyone think this will make the engine run "dirty" ? It will get you up and running quickly. When you learn more, you can go in and make changes to the programming with the hand help controller. You can actually make a lot of changes if you want. Big issue is you don't have to. You can program a valet setting so the car can't be abused by a parking attendant. Just a simple change on the hand held. It can save several programs. The best thing to do is go on line and look at the set up info supplied by FAST. Look at installation videos - there are plenty. There are a lot of opinions being expressed. You need to check facts yourself. It is going to be expensive but has a good warrantee. I have done a lot of research because I was burned on a Holley TBI. I didn't want another expensive lesson. My FAST EZ 2.0 is on back order. It's for roller cammed 427. They can't build them fast enough to fill the demand. That should tell you something. I hope you do your own research and trust yourself to make a decision that suits you. I like the Mega Squirt too but it isn't quite as user friendly. My son would argue that point with me though. Woody

Thanks Woody, I really appreciate the feedback. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm still just worried about being able to use the stock distributor. They offer a bunch of aftermarket distributors, but they're all for V8s. I have a couple of e-mails and posts in to FAST... so we'll see what they come back with. I'm hoping all that's required is that I need to use the MSD 6AL to convert the signal... (I think) so that it's readable to the newer ECM.

quote Originally posted by garage monster: My Fiero has a bored 383 in it. It was broken in on the Dyno at 320hp and 410 torque. I used a 650 CFM Edelbrock carb and with an early seventies block and heads I use regular gas. I had lot's of drivability issues and if parked for a short trip into a store or a long gas fill up it would be very hard to start apparently with excess heat in the carb causing fuel to boil over and flood the engine. More than a year ago I changed to the FAST TBI system. It works just like advertised. Now remember this is a throttle body system that replaces the carb so somewhat simpler. I was skeptical but installed it as directed, made the entries asked for in the handheld controller such as number of cylinders, cubic inches, desired idle, etc. It started right up and I love it. When I have had questions there support people seem to know their stuff.

I'm glad to hear it... and if in the end, I'm not happy with it... I can always use the set-up on my 1969 Olds 455 big block.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm glad to hear it... and if in the end, I'm not happy with it... I can always use the set-up on my 1969 Olds 455 big block.

Have I told you lately, "I really Hate you!"

I miss the days of just throwing money at problems. I also hate the idea that you have that Olds 455 just sitting in your garage in Florida, god man throw that sucker under the hood of your Fiero, all your problems will be solved, well you computer related problems as that is a non computer controlled engine. Hell if you don't do something with that engine very soon I am going to drive the Burb down there and throw it into the back and drive back home. hell if I can't shoehorn it into the Fiero it will definitely fit in the plow truck, but I would rather throw it into the Burb for towing.

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

The distributor has to provide a clean signal and have no centrifugal advance or vacuum advance. I wouldn't use the original 2.8 distributor with the little sheet metal fingers under the cap. A replacement has the newer style pick-up and provides a clean signal. It is triggered like the V8 HEI ignitions. If you buy an aftermarket "performance" distributor it might be a challenge to get one made for computer control. Your upgraded stock distributor is more than up to the task. Your stock coil is more than up to the task. Remember that a coil can only put out as much current as being put in it. The module in the distributor limits the amperage going in. Usually around 5 or so amps. The factory ratio of windings gives a nice fat long duration spark. Going to a higher ratio performance coil raises the voltage to the plug but lowers the amperage. Voltage is the push in the circuit, amperage is the burn. The stock distributor and coil will probable never be a limiting factor on a normally aspirated motor (non-boost). If your ignition actually becomes a problem, I have a solution. Send me an email if you get to that point. Get it up and running first. I think you will be very pleased.

It's interesting that another fellow with a big V8 had problems with a carb. I have a 800 Edelbrock that I have tried everything to make work well. I put a wedge under the carb to make it sit level. This stopped the hot start issues. I am using a wide band O2 sensor to tune it. I drilled air bleeds, changed jets and metering rods and got a respectable fuel air ration on cruise and idle. Couldn't get an accurate or steady ration on acceleration. These cars really accelerate hard and throw the gas around in the bowl. I made a vent extensions when I realized the fuel was being thrown out the vents and dumped into the ventures. This helped a little but the af ratio was still way to fat. I dropped many secondary jet sizes but never got a consistent 13 to 1 af ratio under acceleration. The answer for me is to quite throwing fuel around in the bowl, eliminate the bowl. Get rid of the carb and go to the FAST 2.0 system. The target AF ratios can be set. The cruise can be even leaner that 14.7 to 1.

Woody

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woodys 427

quote Originally posted by woodyhere: The distributor has to provide a clean signal and have no centrifugal advance or vacuum advance. I wouldn't use the original 2.8 distributor with the little sheet metal fingers under the cap. A replacement has the newer style pick-up and provides a clean signal. It is triggered like the V8 HEI ignitions. If you buy an aftermarket "performance" distributor it might be a challenge to get one made for computer control. Your upgraded stock distributor is more than up to the task. Your stock coil is more than up to the task. Remember that a coil can only put out as much current as being put in it. The module in the distributor limits the amperage going in. Usually around 5 or so amps. The factory ratio of windings gives a nice fat long duration spark. Going to a higher ratio performance coil raises the voltage to the plug but lowers the amperage. Voltage is the push in the circuit, amperage is the burn. The stock distributor and coil will probable never be a limiting factor on a normally aspirated motor (non-boost). If your ignition actually becomes a problem, I have a solution. Send me an email if you get to that point. Get it up and running first. I think you will be very pleased. Woody

Woody, thank you SO much for this post. I gave FAST a quick call, but I'm under the impression that FAST is overwhelmed with customer calls. From what I understand, most people selling these kits are on back-order (unless you buy them off eBay or like from Amazon.com... people who bought them in bulk).

In any case, I suspect the tech guy didn't really know the full answer... he was basically telling me I should go with HEI since they don't have a distributor for us.


Now, if you don't mind me nudging you a bit more... you said I should be able to use my stock distributor?

I definitely have the newer one with almost no miles on it (see picture below). In the instructions, the EZ-FAST 2.0 says:

Cleaned up a bit for relevance:
"In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup. A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."


So to clarify, I do have the newer distributor with the newer style stators, and I also have an Accel SuperCoil (or whatever they called it back then). I have a couple of factory coils too... but that's what's on there now.

I guess the biggest thing is that it's saying it requires a clean reference signal. Is that something I can get from the factory style distributor? Do I need to modify the ICM?

Thank you so much for helping me with this.

The tech DID say that if the system is controlling the timing, then it will run in "Sequential" fuel injection mode, as apposed to batch mode.




EDIT: I've been doing a bit more research, and found some images on the MEGASQUIRT site. I downloaded them, and then made one that is representative of what we use (GM HEI-8 style ignition control module) and then labelled the outputs:





As you can see, we do get a timing INPUT from the computer. The BYPASS is simply a means to bypass the timing so that (when cold/start) there's no advance.

The output, specifically the "TACH" output, is the engine reference signal... I BELIEVE.


I also ran across this interesting comment that I read on the MegaSquirt site about the HEI distributor:

"The later 7 and 8 pin modules and corresponding distributors are designed for computer control and should be an easy swap onto earlier engines - not only are those modules intended for computer control, but their distributors are already locked-out so no modifications are required."

While that applies to the MegaSquirt specifically, it's basically telling us that these distributors are ALREADY "locked out." When I re-read what EZ-EFI says...

"In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup."

Now I'm assuming that our distributors have an "integrated pickup"... I know that we have a pickup coil: http://www.fierostore.com/P.../Detail.aspx?s=51042




So what am I missing? Is it as simple as me basically connecting the TACH output signal directly to the EZ-EFI's reference input? And then hooking the ECM's timing advance signal to the ignition control module's ECM input port? The bypass can simply be controlled by a temperature sensor... maybe the one that currently controlls the cold-start injector?... But... I may not even need to do that since the EFI system will compensate for temperature and A/F. So I could just ignore that completely...


Woody, anyone else... am I on the right track here?

Looks like maybe the only thing I'm missing is where in the instructions it says: "A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."

But does it really need that? Is our stock system ALREADY "capacitive dicharge?"

EDIT: Just did some more reading, and apparently the GM ignitions are "Inductive Discharge"... not sure I understand the difference between Capacitive versus Inductive, but the question now is... does the EZ-EFI "really" actually "require" a capacitive discharge ignition box? And why?

EDIT: Did some more reading again, and it looks like the difference is in "who" or "what" supplies the power to the spark plug. Inductive uses the coil, where as it appears in the capacitive, it uses the capacitors in the module (I think). All in all, it simply talks about how "good" of a spark is being produced by the spark plugs. I don't really think it would make a difference to the EZ-EFI... maybe they only say that because they want to make sure there's no issue with producing a good spark?

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Have I told you lately, "I really Hate you!" I miss the days of just throwing money at problems. I also hate the idea that you have that Olds 455 just sitting in your garage in Florida, god man throw that sucker under the hood of your Fiero, all your problems will be solved, well you computer related problems as that is a non computer controlled engine. Hell if you don't do something with that engine very soon I am going to drive the Burb down there and throw it into the back and drive back home. hell if I can't shoehorn it into the Fiero it will definitely fit in the plow truck, but I would rather throw it into the Burb for towing. Steve

Heh, thanks Steve. To be honest, that engine might have been a bad purchase. I got the motor basically for $250 bucks. It was nasty... totally nasty... covered in oil, caked on. ~$7,000 later, it's as you see it. That's a lot to pay for a motor like that.

It certainly is a disgustingly awesome motor, but I don't necessarily have the room right now to buy a car to put it in. I want to finish up my Fiero and my VW Bus (Bus is basically done, Fiero is 60% finished). Once I get those cars running tip-top... then I'll look for a chassis to put that motor in.

I'm thinking a massive early to mid 70s 2-door land yacht.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-23-2013).]

The stuff you are reading from FAST can be a little confusing. They are making things kind of general to cover people that lock out a conventional HEI as well as those with the already locked out computer controlled HEI. The guys at EFI supply are the people I am buying from. They have been helpful and nice to work with. They seem to know this system as well as other systems very well. They also have great pricing.

You have the right distributor. It is locked out and the initial and advance are computer controlled. The FAST ECM will control timing and advance just like you stock ECM does. You won't be using the stock ECM for engine control any more. You can even control when the cooling fan comes on and turns off. You can use the tack signal but the signal from the pick up coil is stronger. Don't over think this. just use the tack reference signal. You will set your timing by having the engine at TDC compression stroke, center the rotor on no. 1 and line up the star shaped points at their closest contact point. Tighten the hold down bolt. The FAST ecm will see this as a crank reference of TDC. From that point on you can do any timing changes with your hand held. The initial timing will be part of the set up with the hand held. You don't need any ignition box such as a multi-spark CDI. Your distributor already has a "box" in it. It's the module. Get the system on order. Put it on and if you have trouble just POST IT!

Woody

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woodys 427

quote Originally posted by woodyhere: The stuff you are reading from FAST can be a little confusing. They are making things kind of general to cover people that lock out a conventional HEI as well as those with the already locked out computer controlled HEI. The guys at EFI supply are the people I am buying from. They have been helpful and nice to work with. They seem to know this system as well as other systems very well. They also have great pricing. You have the right distributor. It is locked out and the initial and advance are computer controlled. The FAST ECM will control timing and advance just like you stock ECM does. You won't be using the stock ECM for engine control any more. You can even control when the cooling fan comes on and turns off. You can use the tack signal but the signal from the pick up coil is stronger. Don't over think this. just use the tack reference signal. You will set your timing by having the engine at TDC compression stroke, center the rotor on no. 1 and line up the star shaped points at their closest contact point. Tighten the hold down bolt. The FAST ecm will see this as a crank reference of TDC. From that point on you can do any timing changes with your hand held. The initial timing will be part of the set up with the hand held. You don't need any ignition box such as a multi-spark CDI. Your distributor already has a "box" in it. It's the module. Get the system on order. Put it on and if you have trouble just POST IT! Woody

Thanks Woody!!! I really appreciate it... sounds like FAST just wants to cover their butt by not giving advice that goes outside the norm... but like you said, it sounds like I have what I need.

I'm pretty excited. I might even make a harness adaptor and tech article for people with the V6/60 so more people can use this kit properly without having to post tons of messages just to figure it out.


Thanks!!!

Todd

Check your PMs.

Tony

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Calgary time/temp

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT Click me
Super Duty 4 Indy #163 Click me

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 12-23-2013).]

my suggestion, EBL flash. it'll control your ignition and fuel, and wires up just like a 7730. did I mention it's way cheaper than true standalone? and that the customer support doesn't leave you standing alone?

http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_P4_Flash.php

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

That's another thing, Bob is awesome with his customer support.
http://www.thirdgen.org/tec...6351-tuning-ebl.html

He posts there regularly, usually within a day or two of you posting a question (if it doesn't get lost in discussion). He's also very knowledgeable about the ins/outs of why something is happening, and EFI in general. While the EBL isn't 100% self-tuning, the fueling is very easy to nail down by just starting a VE learn and driving the vehicle to populate the specific cells (MAP sensor reading on one axis, RPM on the other), though a wideband is basically a necessity to get the fueling where you need, otherwise you're stuck with learns in low load/cruising cells (doesn't learn as well/quickly off a narrowband). Plus you can fine-tune stuff with it that you likely can't with some of the self-tuning systems.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Heh, thanks Steve. To be honest, that engine might have been a bad purchase. I got the motor basically for $250 bucks. It was nasty... totally nasty... covered in oil, caked on. ~$7,000 later, it's as you see it. That's a lot to pay for a motor like that. It certainly is a disgustingly awesome motor, but I don't necessarily have the room right now to buy a car to put it in. I want to finish up my Fiero and my VW Bus (Bus is basically done, Fiero is 60% finished). Once I get those cars running tip-top... then I'll look for a chassis to put that motor in. I'm thinking a massive early to mid 70s 2-door land yacht.

You want a land yacht look at mid 60s Bonneville's, now that's a land yacht. it would be something powerful enough to move that baby right down the road quite nicely, if I remember right my 66, I think it was had a 421 in it that moved it right along fine but that baby would make it FLY.

Steve

The Fiero 2.8 lacks a knock sensor. Thus it is impossible for the ECM to "self tune" the ignition curve.

The Fiero 2.8 lacks a cam sensor. Thus it is impossible for the ECM to run in sequential mode, The 2.8 doesn't even know where the crank is other than it is at one of the three firing points.

The Fiero ICM is designed to operate in direct (advance) mode and not use computer advance during starting. Moving the distributor to TDC will affect starting.

quote The tech DID say that if the system is controlling the timing, then it will run in "Sequential" fuel injection mode, as apposed to batch mode.

That statement makes no sense at all. They are saying that if the ECM controls the timing, something that all stock ECMs have done since the 80s, then the ECM will run in sequential mode, something that is impossible for any ECM to perform without knowing where the cam is.

The fact that until recently they were selling an ECM that lacked the very basic function of timing advance just a little while ago and pedaling it as a better solution than the stock ECM makes me question their credibility.

quote So what am I missing? Is it as simple as me basically connecting the TACH output signal directly to the EZ-EFI's reference input? And then hooking the ECM's timing advance signal to the ignition control module's ECM input port? The bypass can simply be controlled by a temperature sensor... maybe the one that currently controlls the cold-start injector?... But... I may not even need to do that since the EFI system will compensate for temperature and A/F. So I could just ignore that completely...

The timing advance is taken control of by the ECM after the engine reaches 400 RPM. So immediately after start up the stock ECM controls the ignition advance. That isn't something you want delayed until the engine warms up.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-25-2013).]