If you believe FAST's "ad copy", THEORETICALLY, you should be able to run the EZ-EFI on ANY SIZE ENGINE and the ECU should compensate properly. But in 8 months, I've never found any website with EZ-EFI installed on a V6 or 4-cylinder engine.
EZ-EFI has 4-injectors (1 per throat) and EZ-EFI 2.0 has 8-injectors (2 per throat). Before the 2.0, people would have to install 2 EZ throttle bodies on BB's or engines producing more than 550hp.
I got the 2-injector EZ-EFI Jeep kit for my Indy's SD4 (should be good to about 300hp). The ECU is running only fuel for the TB. The timing is completely mechanical (as with carb) http://www.fuelairspark.com...l-w-o-fuel-pumphtml/
The only way I can get it to even run now is to lie to the ECU and tell it I have the 4-injector TB (halving the fuel) My problem is NOT unique. Many who ran into problems say they gave up and put their carb back on. FAST and the "experts" have gone strangely SILENT now. Guess I used up my "tech support"??
Physically, the FAST TB is the only one that fits the engine bay with my SD4 (because of trunk wall and low decklid), so unfortunately I can't just go to an MSD, Holley or Edelbrock EFI throttle body.
I have the Indy SD4 running the FAST EZ-EFI throttle body with the 1227165 ECM utilizing the NVRAM and hacked $12P code (Holden) None of the problems I was having with FAST's ECU that their technicians attributed to "must be an exhaust leak" or "sounds like interference".
7730 is $30, you want to spend $1000. stock ECMs "autotune" and ALL ECMs only tune fuel, they will not tune spark, they only pull timing if knock is dectected, thats it. You are saying it will do all of this, as there ad says, don't believe it. a GM ECM has far more options than stand alones. GM spent million$ on each ECM, you think any stand alone company spent a million on thiers? Stand alone units are the most basic of basic, childs play in comparison. Stand alone units are for "my car didn't come with an ECM, what can I add" and then you get the hacked GM ECMs and they just KILL the stand alone units.
oh and BTW it won't even work, we have low impedance injectors.
I could never understand the fascination with aftermarket ECM's when the stock GM ECM's are tunable, can do engine management, can shift an automatic transmission, while also providing diagnostics. I can buy a used working OEM GM ECM/PCM for $50.00. The aftermarket units cost $1000 and don't offer the potential for any additional horsepower. You can do what you want with your money but there are guys on this forum that have done complete engine swaps for just a bit more than the cost of that FAST unit. Is this money well spent??
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
...and then you get the hacked GM ECMs and they just KILL the stand alone units.
Agreed.
I will say I am very happy with the FAST Throttle Body as a replacement for the 4-bbl carb and it's working well with the GM 1227165 ECM running the hacked $12P code. I found an experienced EFI tuner and TunerPro user who's working with me now to get this working 100%. Going for a drive to record a Datalog with the 3rd update to the BIN file today (better each time)
It was just FAST's ECU that didn't like something about my engine - though it started out "textbook fine". It may have been "outside the envelope" of what it could self-tune for. There ARE thousands who install the thing and have no problem at all. Some of these characters install it without even looking at manual and have no problems, while I followed the instructions to the letter and got nothing but grief. I got tired of their technicians and even the "experts" saying "must be interference". That's as useful as saying the car is haunted!
The 7165 ECM will be superior as I now have knock sensor capability and timing control back as well. FAST EZ-EFI was fuel control only with the springs/weights/vacuum HEI distributor from when I ran the carburetor.
Now that I'm near a happy conclusion, I can share the whole sad story I started LAST summer here: (almost the MOST viewed thread on the site - I wonder if they lost sales because of it) http://www.cpgnation.com/fo...day-not-today.22587/
Even better, I built a MPFI system for the SD4 and running it with the 7165 ECM and TunerPro.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 02-23-2023).]
I could never understand the fascination with aftermarket ECM's when the stock GM ECM's are tunable, can do engine management, can shift an automatic transmission, while also providing diagnostics. I can buy a used working OEM GM ECM/PCM for $50.00. The aftermarket units cost $1000 and don't offer the potential for any additional horsepower. You can do what you want with your money but there are guys on this forum that have done complete engine swaps for just a bit more than the cost of that FAST unit. Is this money well spent??
Since I'm the one who started this post a while back, I might as well respond to this.
For a lot of people, it all has to do with time / effort. What you say above sounds very simple... but I know that tuning an old-ass GM ECM with OBD1 isn't as simple (in most cases) as hooking up a PCM reader and setting a couple of flags and away you go. It takes removing the EPROM, putting it on a burner, going through, and going back and forth trying to determine the specific differences in your configuration so that it works well. In most cases, it probably requires a dyno, or at the very least... logging your variables while you're driving so that you can figure out what you need to change the next time you reflash that EPROM. It's a pain in the ass...
the FAST system actually does work for the applications it was originally intended for (V8s), and you drop one of those on, and magically it takes care of everything. You literally set a couple of flags, and you have effortless tuning that forever works.
As for cost vs performance... I want something that looks and is a little bit faster than it did when I bought it, but I want it to be reliable, and not have to function off 30 year old technology. A Fiero that ran mid 14s and looks 99% stock is all I need / want. I've had / have plenty of other cars that are much faster.
I am really at the point in my life that I just don't have time with work / family to sit down and spend hours working on something like ECM tuning. I've got projects with my kids, work, home renovations, etc. I don't even mow my own lawn anymore because I just don't have the time to do it. That was something I always told myself I'd do myself... I never thought I would hire a landscaper.
Just my free advice but i would absolutely not spend money on the 2.8. Upgrade to a 3.4, enjoy it, and save money for an engine upgrade.
There's a Really Nice 3800SC GT in the Mall right now for $5500.
Haha... thanks Paul, I really do appreciate it, but as I just got through saying... there are many of us who aren't interested in all-out speed / performance. We just want a well-running / well restored vehicle. My 87 Fiero was my first car. I've already rebuilt the 2.8 into a 3.2 (.040 overbore pistons, 3.1 crank and rods etc... etc...). Before I put it in storage, I was 75% of the way through converting it to a manual (the only thing I HADN'T done, was actually install the transmission).
I want the car to run / drive with the same kind of characteristics as it did when I first bought it in 1995 and it had 52k miles on it. It ran really well. I could spend a ton of time and money trying to refurb and remanufacture every component on the car, and for the most part, I've been doing that... http://www.pontiacperforman...et/car87FieroSE.html
But I really want a system that I can just get in the car and go. But like I said a few times, I'm at the point in my life where I barely have the time to spend 5 minutes in the garage anymore. So burning EPROMs and spending a ton of time logging and tuning the chip just so it runs right... that's not something I really want. I want to be able to get in and go, and enjoy it. It's not about the money, it's about trying to relive my teenage years... minus the constant breaking down, and having 5 cents in my checking account.
For performance, I've got an LS1 swap into a 944 planned.
Or... I'll find something to do with this Olds 455 big block that I spent a ton of money on and still don't have a car to put it in.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I want the car to run / drive with the same kind of characteristics as it did when I first bought it in 1995 and it had 52k miles on it. It ran really well. I could spend a ton of time and money trying to refurb and remanufacture every component on the car, and for the most part, I've been doing that... http://www.pontiacperforman...et/car87FieroSE.html
But I really want a system that I can just get in the car and go. But like I said a few times, I'm at the point in my life where I barely have the time to spend 5 minutes in the garage anymore. So burning EPROMs and spending a ton of time logging and tuning the chip just so it runs right... that's not something I really want. I want to be able to get in and go, and enjoy it. It's not about the money, it's about trying to relive my teenage years... minus the constant breaking down, and having 5 cents in my checking account.
Then don't spend $1000 on an aftermarket ECM that isn't likely to run right the first time. Throw the stock Fiero 2.8 harness and ECM in it, and drive it. it might not make the most power our of your rebuilt/stroked engine, but it should run, and it should run fairly reliably. Then do research and do the basic 7730 ECM swap later on. Drive it a while with that. Then think about digital EGR, digital cruise, DIS, knock sensors and the extra stuff. If you spend $1000 on a system and it doesn't just magically work, you're going to be frustrated. With the stock system, it may not run at its peak, but it will run, and you will be enjoying the car instead of getting frustrated trying to figure out why your $1000 aftermarket ECM doesn't.
Then don't spend $1000 on an aftermarket ECM that isn't likely to run right the first time. Throw the stock Fiero 2.8 harness and ECM in it, and drive it. it might not make the most power our of your rebuilt/stroked engine, but it should run, and it should run fairly reliably. Then do research and do the basic 7730 ECM swap later on. Drive it a while with that. Then think about digital EGR, digital cruise, DIS, knock sensors and the extra stuff. If you spend $1000 on a system and it doesn't just magically work, you're going to be frustrated. With the stock system, it may not run at its peak, but it will run, and you will be enjoying the car instead of getting frustrated trying to figure out why your $1000 aftermarket ECM doesn't.
But I really want a system that I can just get in the car and go... I want to be able to get in and go, and enjoy it. ... minus the constant breaking down, and having 5 cents in my checking account.
That's where I was trying to get you . I've had 4 fieros with 2.8s, and right now a 3800SC / auto and 5.7 V8 w/ 5 speed getrag. Those friggin' 2.8s left me stranded so many times the local tow truck driver was giving me a discount (funny but true). Both my 3800SC and V8 run cooler than the 2.8s, get better gas mileage, are GOBS more fun to drive and are a LOT less problems than Any 2.8 I've ever had. GM booby trappped the 2.8s - designed them to be a PIA, but an engine conversion bypasses the OEM design crap.
Originally posted by PaulJK: That's where I was trying to get you . I've had 4 fieros with 2.8s, and right now a 3800SC / auto and 5.7 V8 w/ 5 speed getrag. Those friggin' 2.8s left me stranded so many times the local tow truck driver was giving me a discount (funny but true). Both my 3800SC and V8 run cooler than the 2.8s, get better gas mileage, are GOBS more fun to drive and are a LOT less problems than Any 2.8 I've ever had. GM booby trappped the 2.8s - designed them to be a PIA, but an engine conversion bypasses the OEM design crap.
Ah. Because you had a lot of problems, the whole system is damned?
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. All four of the Fieros I've ever owned, have all been 2.8s. That's over a span of about 15 years. I've had to have tows maybe 5 or 6 times the whole time. And none of those tows were due to a problem with the engine's design.
One was because the transmission (auto) would lock up after a few miles of driving it. That was a car with a salvage title I was trying to get drivable. Second time was on the second car, and was due to someone (previous owner probably) having damaged the bolt in one of the brackets, which caused the water pump belt to fall off, resuling in overheating. And the third car I've owned for almost 10 years now has only needed a tow 3 times in those 10 years (though it's been sitting for the last 3 due to head gasket having blown). First time was for the distributor having gone bad, because previous owner had tried to hook up some messed up keyed kill switch that fried things and caused excessive corrosion in the distributor. Second time was because one of the stainless fuel lines vibrated loose and I was leaking gas. And third time was due to the ICM blowing as I downshifted to take a merge lane turn. Last two were a pretty easy fix, and could have been done on the spot and avoided a tow, if I'd had the necessary tools, and a spare ICM, in the trunk. But I didn't. They were both within a couple miles of the house though, and the tows were free, thanks to AAA.
I have to say in around >170K miles of driving across my new 85 GT & my used DD 86 SE V6, I never had to be towed..except the time I wrecked the 85 which was not the cars fault. Not to say there weren't problems of course but never a "left stranded" issue.
Haltech made a GM plug and play at one time but I think the newer GM Haltech's are V8 only?
BR's,
Mark
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 07-28-2014).]
Thanks guys, yeah... I'm reading the comments, and I really appreciate everyone giving their input. As for the low impedence injectors, can't I simply get injectors that are compatible?
I do want to re-iterate... I neither have the time, or want to fight with creating my own wiring harness, fiddling with an old MS-DOS GM Tuner program and reflashing old ass EPROMS on an old-ass 180 baud 1980s GM ECM.
IF... "IF" I can get a system $500 to $1000 that comes with it's own harness, works with my existing sensors, and will allow me to get in and go... then I will be happy as a pig in a mountain of **** . I'm not looking for a Ferrari. I'm simply restoring my first car, my 1987 Pontiac Fiero. I don't need to race anyone, but I want it to be reliable. The "assumption" here is that this is a simple solution. For all intents and purposes, it should work just fine on a 305 TPI system that uses multiport fuel injection system. We know it works essentially flawless on those.
I've got 3.2 liters of displacement, so while it's definitely not a 5.0, it's also not a 4 cyl.
Honestly, my car is still 4 hours away from me in a storage unit where it's sat for the past 3 years under a white sheet in near climate control. I don't even know when I'll have the time in the next couple of years to bring it down and finish up what I started. But I would like to give it a try. I can at least do that while not trashing the existing wiring and ECM... it is simply plug-and-play.
If I'm not happy with it, and / or if it doesn't work as it should, then I'll install it on my Olds 455 big block.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I do want to re-iterate... I neither have the time, or want to fight with creating my own wiring harness, fiddling with an old MS-DOS GM Tuner program and reflashing old ass EPROMS on an old-ass 180 baud 1980s GM ECM.
Nobody is telling you to do that.
Let me re-iterate. Go find a good manual 2.8 harness and ECM, install them in your car, and drive it. Anything else and you're just going to be spending time and money screwing around trying to make something work.
Let me re-iterate. Go find a good manual 2.8 harness and ECM, install them in your car, and drive it. Anything else and you're just going to be spending time and money screwing around trying to make something work.
I can't do that... my engine is 3.2 liters of displacement now, and I have 17# injectors. I also have an aftermarket cam. It's the shitty Phase-2 Fireball cam right now from ARI, but I plan on swapping in the H272 cam that I bought like 5-6 years ago.
I'm pretty sure the ECM can't exactly handle that? I'm not asking for Ferrari performance, but I want to be able to at least get the benefit of the doubt. I don't want hunting idle, or the slow ECM response.
Not trying to be difficult here, I realize a lot of people have done things cheaper / easier... I'm a cheap bastard too... but I've dumped a TON of money into my Fiero to restore it like it was brand new. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING has been stripped, sanded, painted, replaced, or reconditioned. Down to every tree nut, hose clamp, hose, whatever... I'm only 75% of the way through, just have to do the engine bay now... but I don't want to skimp on the engine management.
IF... and I am saying IF here... this solution can give me solid performance with solid reliability, then I definitely want to look into it.
I do appreciate you guys keeping this thread alive even though all of this has basically been on the back burner while responsibilities have taken over...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I can't do that... my engine is 3.2 liters of displacement now, and I have 17# injectors. I also have an aftermarket cam. It's the shitty Phase-2 Fireball cam right now from ARI, but I plan on swapping in the H272 cam that I bought like 5-6 years ago.
I'm pretty sure the ECM can't exactly handle that? I'm not asking for Ferrari performance, but I want to be able to at least get the benefit of the doubt. I don't want hunting idle, or the slow ECM response.
It will do fine after a bit of driving. It won't be optimum, but stock ECMs of the 80s are pretty forgiving in terms of performance mods, because they are too slow and have too little memory, to really do much. There's a reason the new LSx and Ecotec engines are able to squeeze so much power out of them, and it's not just because of injectors or DOHC. The ECMs today are quite powerful, and have a lot of storage. They can do a lot more math, a lot faster, and referencing a lot more tables, than what 80s ECMs could do.
And at least you'll be driving it.
And if you really don't want to just throw the stock ECM in and drive it, then pay Darth Fiero or someone to just make a harness for the 7730 swap, and throw a tune in for the mods you have, and be done with it. Even if you can just plug a USB cable into the $1000 aftermarket systems, you're still going to get incredibly frustrated trying to program it.
Anything that says it will 'autotune' itself is flat out lie the way I see it.
It's impossible for a system to auto tune itself at cold start.
It's impossible for a system to auto tune itself before the O2 sensor warms up.
It's impossible for a system to auto tune advance without a knock sensor
Even with a knock sensor it's pretty much impossible for a system to auto tune advance.
It's impossible to auto tune for WOT.
It's impossible to auto tune for Power Enrichment.
You don't have a cam sensor so you can't run sequential. If you run an OBD2 PCM you are going to have to dumb it down quite a bit to get it to run properly without the cam sensor. I don't see this working if you keep your distributor also.
So here's my thoughts. Get a 7730 harness and install it. Run DIS if you can but without a crank pick up you have to run the distributor. Run a V6 7730 knock sensor. Drop the EGR, you don't need it and why go through with converting to the digital EGR conversion for a car that isn't ran that much. Get a best guess tune from Ryan Gick. Run the Moates Ostrich 2 on your 7730 so you can flash program it. You should already have a wideband O2 on your engine but if not get one. Now someone is going to have to log and tune your setup sometime. You aren't running stock. Ryan's best guess tune should run fairly well but it might not. You have a complicated non-stock engine (question). Don't expect a simple answer to be available. Be ready to have someone log the ECM and send the results Ryan to get it perfect. If you don't have the time to tune it pay someone to do it for you locally. Get it the tune figured out and locked down. Then finally - when you do have the tune finalized put it on a flash prom and pull the ostrich so you don't have to worry about any dependability issues with the extra electronics.
If you do tune yourself - TunerPro RT is a great program for both logging and for programming of the ECM. Again it's not a simple 'bolt in and it works' solution but it is about as simple as you can get it. It is very reasonable for you or your tuner to work with.
It will take less time to get a proper harness on it with a proper tune than it will to swap engines.
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Autotuning sounds to me like the quackery put out by the 'quick fix' people selling cure-alls for everything on afternoon TV or the internet
Jump to 13:00 - This was 'pretuned' by the Holley guys. It still needed tweaking
I think it was about $450 total (back in 2006) for a Moates Ostrich Emulator, a modified PROM/Memcal to accept the Ostrich, the laptop cable for data logging, a tuning tutorial, and copies of Tunerpro RT and TunerCat (OBD1). I still have everything, but haven't touched in since 2010.
From there with several evenings of reading I was able to build a base tune for my SBC/Ramjet fiero (lots of different parts, so not an easy tune to dial in) in a few evenings. Over a few weeks of driving it, I was able to make it run much, much better than either of the mail order chips I had for it and did 18 dyno runs to dial in the fuel/spark for WOT.
I made some excel spreadsheets so I could pivot table the logged info to get the average adjustments for each cell (fuel and spark), so after each log, I saved the data, downloaded it to excel, ran the macro, copied the new parameters to Tunerpro RT, then flashed it to the emulator, and did another datalog.
I drove the car for several years and did all the tuning and never burned a chip.
Anytime you have a unique engine configuration it is going to take work to dial it in. Its not like other combos, so the mail order tunes will just be general guesses and not based on tuning similar setups 100's of times before. A trick I learned for the larger cammed OBD1 computers is set the base idle to be about 25 RPM higher than the target idle speed (vs. the 150 to 200 rpm lower that is normal). This kept the IAC from over compensating to slow the engine (it couldn't go any lower) and helped steady the idle.
quote
Originally posted by dobey: The ECMs today are quite powerful, and have a lot of storage. They can do a lot more math, a lot faster, and referencing a lot more tables, than what 80s ECMs could do.
There are huge differences in processing speed and data logging capabilities between vintages of ECM's and even a huge difference in the OBD2 family (Gen3 vs Gen4). From a data logging perspective... in a 15 minute log: OBD1 (7730 ecm) will result in hundreds (possibly 1500 total) of rows of logged data (about 10 or so logged parameters). OBD2 (99 LS1 ecm) will result in thousands (around 5-8K) rows of logged data (about 20 logged parameters - # of parameters changes the # of rows of logged data). OBD2 Gen4 (2007 E67 ECM) will result in tens of thousands (40+K) rows of logged data (about 35+ logged parameters - you can log quite a bit w/o losing much resolution).
I hemmed and hawed, and decided to just buy it. I ended up getting the FAST 2.0 EZ-EFI Multi-Port fuel injection upgrade system.
It basically comes with everything. I just need to figure out the timing stuff. The 2.0 verison DOES include the timing controller built in, just need to figure out the adaption between my stock distributor and that system. I'll get it in a few days... so, we'll see. I'll let everyone know.
The "Engine Quit" thread from the other day really just got me irked again. I'm tired of having old crap. I really want a modern fuel injection controller, without having to sit there with an old 90s laptop with DOS trying to figure out how to reflash EEPROMs for a system that communicates at 180 baud. At it's best, I have a 35+ year old wiring harness, and this new system comes with a completely new wiring harness that already has all new GM harness connectors on it.
It's absolutely WAY more than I need... like, way more. I probably could haev gone with the EZ-EFI 1.0, but I was just concerned that it didn't have the spark control that I needed... it just wasn't very clear to me. This one DOES have that, so that's important.
I'll let everyone know how it goes. I still have to get my Fiero out of storage though...
EDIT: It was about $1,500 shipped. If in the end it simply doesn't do what I want it to do... I'll use it on my 1969 Olds 455 Big Block which is currently sitting on an engine stand in a storage unit next to another car that's also in storage (my VW Bus).
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-16-2023).]
For anyone who cares, I'll probably create a new thread when it comes in, and use that to handle the install and any discussion on it. Figure it'll be easier to track if anyone is curious in the future. I may end up kicking myself, but at least I'll know. I'll make sure that when I do this, I carefully remove my old engine wiring harness so I can always put it back if need be. I won't be hacking anything up.
HI guys. I just went through this on my 85 gt. I started out trying to just upgrade with a 1227730 ecu but it did not work well. So I built a seven notch crank wheel (6 plus 1)and used an ls pickup with a batch fire coilpack from a 3.4 . this combination worked well .I bought an apu1 from moates but I am not savvy enough to write my own chip. Needless to say I gave up after spending gobs of time and money on this project. Then iI met the owner of a local shop and he talked me into starting fresh and installing an Emtron SL6 ecu and building a whole new harness. I stripped apart my distributor and installed a pickup wheel (12 tooth minus one) and another ls pickup to use as a cam sensor. I used 2 Bosch knock sensors installed in unused bolt bosses on each side of the block. I welded bosses on each header outlet to install duel Lambda o2 sensors .I installed Ford 52 lb.racing injectors.I changed out the holley throttle body for a larger bosch drive by wire unit and installed a Nissan throttle pedal out of a 370zx. For ignition i used 6 ls coils. A fellow from Emtron in Australia remote tuned it on the rolling road dyno at my friends speed shop.146 HP. at 5500 and 266 ft lbs at 4000. Very nice to drive now.
Hi again. If anybody wants to try upgrading to a gm 1227730 ecu have I got a deal for you. I have an Moates apu1 chip writer and all the cables and spare chips and adaptors complete and virtually unused. Also 2 1227730 ecu's from 92 3.1 and 3.4. You pay the shipping and I will give it all to you. 82TA. WE talked about this same subject in my OT thread a couple of months ago. I hope your new ecu works for you. I can post part numbers and pics of what I did if your interested
[This message has been edited by sleek fiero (edited 02-22-2023).]
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This is a pic of finished upgrade.
