Is it just me, because it seems like the most cost effective swap there is right now, for the front and all years, that is. I mean it is aluminum and dual piston! Am I missing some thing? Because, there is like, none info on this, that I can fine. So any info on this would help, a lot thanks.
I'd love to see ceramic rotors to reduce rotating mass... Fiero calipers are already aluminum, iirc... I'm using 4 piston Wilwood calipers on my RAYNE/HELD/WESTSHORE/ARRAUT braking system... Not everyone will feel the results justify the price-tag.
I'm "only using the 12" kit" where as a lot of people here will convince you that 13+" is the way to go. Let me tell you that my 12" kit will stop in a dime and hand you back change and if I had to do it all over again, I'd go the 11.25" route which is plenty good for a small car like a Fiero.
I rebuilt my car from the ground up stock. Never had a single brake problem in 100K/ 7years. I really dont get why people want to change them. My stock ones stopped me fine from 150mph. Sometimes 'upgrades' are not worth the effort for anything you get and the hastles you have making them work. It already has 4 wheels discs...better than most cars. I might have considered it if I seriously roadraced like in SCCA with it.
------------------ 1987 Fiero GT - 2006 3800 Series III Drive by Wire; Ported & Polished by TrippleEdge; 1.7 Yella Terra Full Roller Rockers; VS Cam; 3.1" Pulley; Tuning by Darth; WCF CAI & 1 5/8 Stainless Headers; 3" Exhaust; Semi-Built 4T65HD; Power Steering & Much More; MSD Coils & Wires; Porsche (Brembo) Calipers on 13" Viper Rotors; 18X8 TSW Indy Wheels; Paint by Phoenix Auto in California City.
Is it just me, because it seems like the most cost effective swap there is right now, for the front and all years, that is. I mean it is aluminum and dual piston! Am I missing some thing? Because, there is like, none info on this, that I can fine. So any info on this would help, a lot thanks.
A lot of people choose the Grand Am brake upgrade... the reason being is because for $20 dollars more than the cost of stock components, you can have this (below), which is really more than enough for an otherwise mostly stock car that still has a V6/60 in it.
Brakes are a system and everything needs to work together properly to maintain good brake bias and a parking brake function.
The Fiero brake system was designed around using the same piston area front/rear and bias coming from the combination valve. They also had the parking brake built into the rear calipers.
Almost all the later model camaros/corvettes were designed with larger caliper piston area in front and smaller in the rear to dial in the majority of their bias. So even if they would fit front/rear you can't use the full set w/o swapping out combination valves and even then you might not end up with the same (or even similar) bias as stock fiero.
The Camaro front calipers also have a larger piston area than the Fiero so you will likely need to swap master cylinders to assist with the larger volume flow to move the pistons in front, but the larger master cylinder will lower rear caliper clamp pressure and this will become an issue if you don't increase the area of the rear caliper piston. The larger master means for the same pedal pressure, there will be lower line pressure to the calipers. Since the rear caliper remained the same size, the lower line pressure will result in less clamp load at the rear caliper for the same pedal pressure. So the upgrade could potentially increase front braking while reducing rear braking if not done properly.
Most people who have installed the LS1 dual piston calipers, have only done so on the front and haven't yet figured out a matching rear caliper solution with the right piston area and a working parking brake system.
I don't see the dual piston calipers upgrades becoming more popular until a solution for the complete system has been created that results in proper brake bias and a working parking brake setup.
The reason, I don't want to do the grand am swap, is I don't like the u have to mill down the hub. but I don't care about cutting off the disk. I need/want the e-brake I have no problem switching master cylinder or anything for that matter I was thinking lebaron swap for the rear how much size difference between the lebaron and the rear caliper on the f-body.
[This message has been edited by jonathan2014 (edited 01-12-2014).]
I rebuilt my car from the ground up stock. Never had a single brake problem in 100K/ 7years. I really dont get why people want to change them. My stock ones stopped me fine from 150mph. Sometimes 'upgrades' are not worth the effort for anything you get and the hastles you have making them work. It already has 4 wheels discs...better than most cars. I might have considered it if I seriously roadraced like in SCCA with it.
I have the dual piston Corvette brakes up front and I make brackets for them. I'm using the rear lebaron swap (caddy calipers) to maintain the ebrake and the bias feels fine. I had done some math on the piston size, rotor diameter, etc and it obviously wasn't the same front/rear bias as stock but I believe it was a few percent off. I figured I'd try and it's worked out well for me. I also have the upgraded MC from the blazer. The whole feel is much better than stock and there is absolutely no fade. The front Corvette rotors are vented and are THICK.
Yes it is. All these people putting on entirely new brake systems to look pretty. Just paint the stock ones. If I remember right, late 86 went to vented rotors and done away with the solid ones. Mine had solids. They were plenty good enough for a whole day of thrashing around back roads. My airplane has 2 disc brakes about 6-8 inches in diameter and I can stop fast enough to hit the prop on the ground.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-13-2014).]
My 87 still has solid rotors. When I priced the brakes it was cheaper to go to grand am brakes. My parking brake doesn't work now so I won't miss much. :-)
I have the dual piston Corvette brakes up front and I make brackets for them. I'm using the rear lebaron swap (caddy calipers) to maintain the ebrake and the bias feels fine. I had done some math on the piston size, rotor diameter, etc and it obviously wasn't the same front/rear bias as stock but I believe it was a few percent off. I figured I'd try and it's worked out well for me. I also have the upgraded MC from the blazer. The whole feel is much better than stock and there is absolutely no fade. The front Corvette rotors are vented and are THICK.
Do you have any links or pictures for what I understand the f-body have bigger pistons than the corvette which, sound like a good thing to me.
Did he just compare an automotive braking system to a system used on an aircraft?
If so ,that is officially the most ignorant post I have seen in quite awhile...
Get used to it, if you saw some of the stupidity he writes in OT you'd understand- and he's not even the worst offender. Who needs a parking brake on a manual car? Who's 3.1 turboturd can make it to 150mph and stop on a dime? All with stock "Ferrari" body aero without a hood vent and not flying off the road at those speeds? All from the guy who claims he gets 100k+ on his oem tires and brakes. So much lulz.
As for my personal experience, I rebuilt a lot of my 87 GT and in that package was a new set of Delco discs along with IIRC either Raybestos or Wagner pads. On a cruise that some of us on here do on mountain roads, I had to perform one emergency stop from about 105-0 coming off a very steep hill. At about 40 I felt my brakes severely starting to fade and was barely able to stop at the bottom of the hill. When I finally did my fluid was boiling and hissing. Now it could be that the fluid was old as I never cycled it myself, but that was some scary sh*t. Apart from that the stock brakes were barely adequate for daily driving IMO, half the time I couldn't get the tires to lock up by standing on the pedal.
I also tried swapping in the GA setup, but man it was HEAVY. I felt that if I was going to add so much unsprung weight, I might as well spring for a bigger rotor combo. I sold that and planned to do the LeBaron swap- which IMO along with the Vette brake setup is the best for our cars for someone on a budget. Wilwoods are nice, but they don't have dust boots and I'd question having them on a daily.
As for my personal experience, I rebuilt a lot of my 87 GT and in that package was a new set of Delco discs along with IIRC either Raybestos or Wagner pads. On a cruise that some of us on here do on mountain roads, I had to perform one emergency stop from about 105-0 coming off a very steep hill. At about 40 I felt my brakes severely starting to fade and was barely able to stop at the bottom of the hill. When I finally did my fluid was boiling and hissing. Now it could be that the fluid was old as I never cycled it myself, but that was some scary sh*t. Apart from that the stock brakes were barely adequate for daily driving IMO, half the time I couldn't get the tires to lock up by standing on the pedal.
That's quite an indictment for not knowing the state of the fluid, or the condition of the seals in the 25 year old master cylinder with the questionable fluid... Last time I checked a 105-0 emergency downhill stop would be rather severe duty for any average brake system. Especially one with solid rotors up front.
The stock brakes are more than adequate for daily driving if properly maintained... new pads and rotors with out knowing the condition of the rest of the system is not properly maintained for a 25+ year old car.
I can understand if the brakes on your particular Fiero are under-performing, but generally speaking, properly maintained Fieros don't over heat, they stop when asked too, and don't catch on fire, well, not more than anything else on the road anyway. If someone has a questionable brake system and doesn't want to spend the money on stock parts and would rather put it towards an upgrade, that's fine, but we shouldn't be making people think they are driving a car that is a deathtrap by design, because it is not.
I have the old HELD/Rayne 12" Wilwood brake kit on my car and after looking at WIlwood's catalog online, it looks like I may be able to swap in some light-weight rotors.
That's quite an indictment for not knowing the state of the fluid, or the condition of the seals in the 25 year old master cylinder with the questionable fluid... Last time I checked a 105-0 emergency downhill stop would be rather severe duty for any average brake system. Especially one with solid rotors up front.
The stock brakes are more than adequate for daily driving if properly maintained... new pads and rotors with out knowing the condition of the rest of the system is not properly maintained for a 25+ year old car.
I can understand if the brakes on your particular Fiero are under-performing, but generally speaking, properly maintained Fieros don't over heat, they stop when asked too, and don't catch on fire, well, not more than anything else on the road anyway. If someone has a questionable brake system and doesn't want to spend the money on stock parts and would rather put it towards an upgrade, that's fine, but we shouldn't be making people think they are driving a car that is a deathtrap by design, because it is not.
Now that I remember, my MC had died early on when I got the car and I had replaced it+ flushed the fluid prior to that cruise. In fact I went through 2 MCs because the first never fit right. None of them got me the braking performance that a sporty mid engine 2 door car should have.
Get used to it, if you saw some of the stupidity he writes in OT you'd understand- and he's not even the worst offender. Who needs a parking brake on a manual car? Who's 3.1 turboturd can make it to 150mph and stop on a dime? All with stock "Ferrari" body aero without a hood vent and not flying off the road at those speeds? All from the guy who claims he gets 100k+ on his oem tires and brakes. So much lulz.
As for my personal experience, I rebuilt a lot of my 87 GT and in that package was a new set of Delco discs along with IIRC either Raybestos or Wagner pads. On a cruise that some of us on here do on mountain roads, I had to perform one emergency stop from about 105-0 coming off a very steep hill. At about 40 I felt my brakes severely starting to fade and was barely able to stop at the bottom of the hill. When I finally did my fluid was boiling and hissing. Now it could be that the fluid was old as I never cycled it myself, but that was some scary sh*t. Apart from that the stock brakes were barely adequate for daily driving IMO, half the time I couldn't get the tires to lock up by standing on the pedal.
I also tried swapping in the GA setup, but man it was HEAVY. I felt that if I was going to add so much unsprung weight, I might as well spring for a bigger rotor combo. I sold that and planned to do the LeBaron swap- which IMO along with the Vette brake setup is the best for our cars for someone on a budget. Wilwoods are nice, but they don't have dust boots and I'd question having them on a daily.
Disc brakes are disc brakes whether they are on a car, motorcycle, gokart or a plane. In my case they are both steel rotors with a single caliper/ piston. Please, You explain to me what is any difference other than what its bolted on to, you morons. They all work EXACTLY the same way. As for some of your other stupidity.
No the Ferrari rebody didnt need any stupid vents. It was the same as a Ferrari aerodynamicly and within fractions of an inch of same dimensions. Just because your junk POS needed holes drilled in the hood to stay on the road dont mean anyone elses does. I dont know how fast the Fieros had to go to pace the Indy 500, but I dont recall them putting any holes in the hood.
yes, I had a 300 hp turboed 3.1, built by a nascar engine builder in it. and yes it went 100,000 miles with no problems. Back some years, Nascar considered using 3.8 v6s in the Nationwide Series, and he worked on them that made over 550 hp na, with single 4 bbls. They did cancel those plans though. You can look it up yourself.
I did not say it stopped on a dime...you said that...I said it stopped just fine for me. My drum brakes also worked to my satisfaction on my SuperBee. Since you cant make your brakes work at all, you obviously dont have a clue how to work on them. I could lock up mine and skid it 50 yards if I wanted to.
It had a 200 mph speedo in it, and actually the fastest I had it was verified by police radar and GPS to be 177. It easily did 140-150 at Mid Ohio during open track days when I went up with either the Porsche or Mercedes Regional Clubs.
yes I get over 100,000 miles on tires and brakes in most of my cars. My Sebring is at 105,000 and may need new ones next year since their starting to show minor weather cracking now. Its still my daily driver and does fine on the snow passing 4x4s stuck in the ditches. The Astro got 130K before I sold it on the original BFG whitewalls. Same with all the limos I had in my business fleet.
Other than needing a parking brake in some states, Ive never used them on anything ever I remember. Why would you when you can put it in gear or park ? Have you ever tried stopping your car with an emergency brake only. I did once in a Corvette and it barely slowed it down, certainly did not come close to stopping it any better than sticking my foot out the door. In fact most of my cars, I didnt even know if they did work since I never used one.
And you didnt mention I can get great gas mileage. The Sebring, stock V6 auto, conv still gets 35mpg all day long on the highway. Since I still have it, I can and have already proved all that.
So stick your gearshift up your azz and f----k it. numb nuts.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-14-2014).]
Disc brakes are disc brakes whether they are on a car, motorcycle, gokart or a plane. In my case they are both steel rotors with a single caliper/ piston. Please, You explain to me what is any difference other than what its bolted on to, you morons. They all work EXACTLY the same way. As for some of your other stupidity.
No the Ferrari rebody didnt need any stupid vents. It was the same as a Ferrari aerodynamicly and within fractions of an inch of same dimensions. Just because your junk POS needed holes drilled in the hood to stay on the road dont mean anyone elses does. I dont know how fast the Fieros had to go to pace the Indy 500, but I dont recall them putting any holes in the hood.
yes, I had a 300 hp turboed 3.1, built by a nascar engine builder in it. and yes it went 100,000 miles with no problems. Back some years, Nascar considered using 3.8 v6s in the Nationwide Series, and he worked on them that made over 550 hp na, with single 4 bbls. They did cancel those plans though. You can look it up yourself.
I did not say it stopped on a dime...you said that...I said it stopped just fine for me. My drum brakes also worked to my satisfaction on my SuperBee. Since you cant make your brakes work at all, you obviously dont have a clue how to work on them. I could lock up mine and skid it 50 yards if I wanted to.
It had a 200 mph speedo in it, and actually the fastest I had it was verified by police radar and GPS to be 177. It easily did 140-150 at Mid Ohio during open track days when I went up with either the Porsche or Mercedes Regional Clubs.
yes I get over 100,000 miles on tires and brakes in most of my cars. My Sebring is at 105,000 and may need new ones next year since their starting to show minor weather cracking now. Its still my daily driver and does fine on the snow passing 4x4s stuck in the ditches. The Astro got 130K before I sold it on the original BFG whitewalls. Same with all the limos I had in my business fleet.
Other than needing a parking brake in some states, Ive never used them on anything ever I remember. Why would you when you can put it in gear or park ? Have you ever tried stopping your car with an emergency brake only. I did once in a Corvette and it barely slowed it down, certainly did not come close to stopping it any better than sticking my foot out the door. In fact most of my cars, I didnt even know if they did work since I never used one.
And you didnt mention I can get great gas mileage. The Sebring, stock V6 auto, conv still gets 35mpg all day long on the highway. Since I still have it, I can and have already proved all that.
So stick your gearshift up your azz and f----k it. numb nuts.
I have a 87 GT and always thought the stock brakes were great. Then I had a caliper lock up and decided while I was changing things to upgrade to the Lebaron/Seville package. Then I realized just how crappy the factory brakes where. Im sure If I would have changed all the old parts out with new factory parts they would have been a lot better, but not nearly as good as what I have now.
Prior to doing DoubleC4's C5 brake upgrade I did a fair amount of research on the calipers involved. 4th gen f-body, C5 (non-Z06), and C6 (non-Z06) calipers are all roughly the same. The 4th gen & C5 calipers are almost identical - the difference is a larger mounting bracket on the C5 caliper (1" larger rotor) and a slightly beefier caliper maybe. I read that they may be exactly the same, just a slightly different shape to allow for the "Corvette" script. The piston diameter is the same (1.75") on each of them. The C6 caliper is verifiably stronger than the 4th gen/C5 caliper but shares the exact same functional dimensions as well. The Z51 brake package gives bigger (~1/2", IIRC) rotors and has a "taller" mounting bracket to move the caliper out, but the C6 base and C6 Z51 caliper are identical.
Bottom line, from my investigation, is that 4th gen, C5 (non-Z06), and C6 (non-Z06) calipers are all interchangeable. They get stronger as they get newer. They also get more expensive whether new or reman. Given the choice I'd always opt for C6 calipers. The cost difference is tens of dollars, if that, and you get the strongest caliper with no tangible weight penalty for it.
Edit: If you buy DC4's adapters AND you're running 18" wheels, you can also go to the C6 Z51 brakes. Just thought I'd mention - but 13.4" rotors on a Fiero seems a little nuts, not worth the extra couple pounds IMHO.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-14-2014).]
I picked up the camaro calipers for $28 a pair used and then bought a set of powder coated for $145. I did not want the corvette script but the c5 are less likely to spread... I plan on Chang in to the 4 piston ctsv calipers if can get a set reasonably priced
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87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar/ 4t80e 86GT 3800 n/a Northstar Rebuild
[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 01-14-2014).]
I apologize to the OP for the troll up above, and also for not directly not answering your question in my initial response. As an owner of a 4th gen f-body, I can tell you that the stock brake bias is huge. In fact a popular budget swap on the forums is the CTS-V and 5th gen Camaro Brembo swap. A lot of people would prefer to swap a full set of brakes, but the rears do so little work in comparison that its pretty useless- not to mention it increases axle hop under braking on that platform.
The calipers are fairly light though, the e-brake setup for the the rears isn't terrible different either. Regardless you still need to redrill the rotors for 5x100 and possibly bore the hub centers. Just for that effort alone I think its worth the extra couple bucks to do the Vette setup, or do the Seville swap since its less labor intensive IMO.
I apologize to the OP for the troll up above, and also for not directly not answering your question in my initial response. As an owner of a 4th gen f-body, I can tell you that the stock brake bias is huge. In fact a popular budget swap on the forums is the CTS-V and 5th gen Camaro Brembo swap. A lot of people would prefer to swap a full set of brakes, but the rears do so little work in comparison that its pretty useless- not to mention it increases axle hop under braking on that platform.
The calipers are fairly light though, the e-brake setup for the the rears isn't terrible different either. Regardless you still need to redrill the rotors for 5x100 and possibly bore the hub centers. Just for that effort alone I think its worth the extra couple bucks to do the Vette setup, or do the Seville swap since its less labor intensive IMO.
Its alright I understand the question would bring up arguments the the only reason why I suggested these calipers is because they're aluminum duel piston And readily available at a junkyard for cheap. But if I could find CTS-V or brembo for cheap. I would be all over them
I want the emergency, brake because. I have a stick, and I like leaving it running when I'm not in it, and that is completely unsafe, unless you have emergency break, or you block the wheels and you try looking cool geting in your trunk to Get blocks to block the wheels.
[This message has been edited by jonathan2014 (edited 01-14-2014).]
I want the emergency, brake because. I have a stick, and I like leaving it running when I'm not in it, and that is completely unsafe, unless you have emergency break, or you block the wheels and you try looking cool geting in your trunk to Get blocks to block the wheels.
Agreed, thats a big part of why I got rid of my Grand Am swap. Parking on steep hills is out of the question, not to mention its annoying and possibly unsafe having to shut the engine off/ hop out of the car for something with the engine running. Plus I'd imagine it'd trip up a stupid car thief a bit with the lever being down and the wheels still being locked up lol.
I am working on using the same calipers from and rear. I do not need an e brake.
And there ya go. I never leave my car running if Im not in it period. IF you MUST, just turn the wheels toward the curb like the law says to.
*** DONT APPOLOGIZE for me....nitrohead. I just say things like I see them....and always have. I offer no appolgy to anything I said. Id tell you the same face to face. Just too bad you had to start crap in someone elses thread. If you start at the begining, you will see you started it. Ive forgotten more than you know and prob done more that you ever read about in your comic books.
*** Fireboss, I have absolutely no problem with anything except people that dont know anything trying to tell me anything. (see above) Especially when they are telling me what " I " do, did or have.
*** To the orig poster. Ill keep out of it now. I just posted my honest opinions in answer to your question. You could take it or leave it.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-15-2014).]
I installed new ebrake hardware on my 87GT and it's useless. Works a little better on my 88 but still mostly useless.
There was actually a recall on the Fiero ebrake, might have been 88 only, not sure, but it was because it's mostly useless. So perhaps some cars had the recall done and some not.
Last time I checked a 105-0 emergency downhill stop would be rather severe duty for any average brake system. Especially one with solid rotors up front.
