None of you know the PM's or emails I have received. A teaser - really! As to Joe's tank I was trying to get him to make changes that would make his tanks better. I also have liability concerns for him. If there is some real interest I will go ahead and get some prices. You have to remember I started out saying I had no real interest in making tanks for others. I didn't. Then some nice folks , that appreciated all the engineering that went into the design of this tank, changed my mind. I have been in the manufacturing business for a long time and have a pretty full plate for a 68 year old. I have been thinking about some of the comments folks have made in regard to their requirements. Here is what I have come up with:
1. A 18.7 gallon 304 Stainless Steel .045 (18 pounds heavier than stock) uses a stock extended fuel sender, tubes and wiring. Slight recess in top of tank for tubes and wiring. Requires an access hole to put fill/vent hose on. Is 5/8 inch below floor pan - about level with heater and AC clamps. Box baffle and sump so all the capacity is used. .Stock heat shields fit. Drain optional. Anti-friction sheets for contact areas and formed shields for tubes and wires on tank top.
2. A 16.8 gallon 304 Stainless Steel .045 tank (13 pounds heavier than stock) uses same sender as above. No access hole required to put fill/vent hoses on. The rest same as above.
3. A 15 gallon 304 Stainless Steel .045 tank ( I would guess 11 pounds heavier than stock) stock sending unit/wiring. No access hole required. Flush with floor pan. Drain optional.
Stainless Steel is many times more puncture resistant than the soft steel used to form the stock tanks. It won't work harden with age. It won't cause other metals to corrode. It is a forever material. I used a floor jack to install my tank. It is made of scrapes of 304 .060 I had in the shop (heavier than I wanted). I jacked up the tank and got under to have a look and could see the tank was holding up the front of the car, not that I would ever recommend this as a jack point! I'm just saying, these tanks are tough.
Any of you that have a real interest Email me. I'll get some prices together and get back to you.
Will (And you alone please), what affects will removing this tank and plugging the line have on the engine/car?
As was said above... probably not much.
Edit: On second thought...
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru: Fuel expands/contracts with changes in temperature and it is important to ensure there is enough room in the tank for it to expand or it could push fuel into the expansion canister. Gasoline expands at a rate of 0.00069 per degree F. So a 100 degree change in temperature with a 12 gallon tank will require .828 gallons of additional space. Expecting a 100 degree change is probably extreme, but it provides a since of scale.
Since my car is an 88, it has an external expansion tank on the upper passenger frame rail (I never measured it, but it might be .5 gallon). The top of the fuel fill vent tube is about 3" from the top of the tank. This creates an air pocket about 3" x 7" x 20" which is room for about 1.8 gallons of fuel (1 gallon more than needed for a 100 degree change - and assuming there was no secondary expansion tank).
With 1.8 gallons of volume and an expansion of 0.8 gallons, the tank would end up with about 12 psi of pressure inside. Assuming it doesn't deform or otherwise damage the tank itself, that will make life hard for the fuel pump, as that's the pressure that the fuel return line from the fuel rail sees. Your analysis also doesn't account for the fuel vapor that the elevated temperature and churning of the fuel as it circulates through the fuel system would liberate which would further increase tank pressure.
Also (1), on extended trips, my center console gets quite warm. Fuel is being removed from the tank as that's happening, so it's not like the pure expansion scenario you outlined, but I don't think a 100 degree temp difference is that out of line.
Also (2), the EPA breathes down manufacturer's necks to make sure that they NEVER spill fuel, so GM's expansion system is grossly over-engineered to account for EPA regs. The EPA has no understanding of prevalence or rareness. If a car can be made to piddle fuel under extreme conditions, they pretty much act like every car like it does that all the time. It's ridiculous.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-24-2014).]
Originally posted by woodyhere: Your negative comments, however have. I'm not going to make tanks or share plans. All you bench builders can make your own. I am happy to have an 18.7 gallon tank without the hassle of building more. All this BS for a line that you could have simply decided to plug. So, what have you accomplished trying to prove that you, who have never built a tank, know more about it than me?
quote
Originally posted by woodyhere:
None of you know the PM's or emails I have received. A teaser - really!
Oh no... people mouthing off on the internet. Say it isn't so.
People say a lot of dumb things. I don't take much of it seriously.
Originally posted by Will: Your analysis also doesn't account for the fuel vapor that the elevated temperature and churning of the fuel as it circulates through the fuel system would liberate which would further increase tank pressure.
Also (1), on extended trips, my center console gets quite warm. Fuel is being removed from the tank as that's happening, so it's not like the pure expansion scenario you outlined, but I don't think a 100 degree temp difference is that out of line.
I didn't include the pressure build up calculation because the pressure only builds if you block off or otherwise defeat the function of the vent tube. Removing the expansion tank does not have to impact the function of the vent line unless you choose to block it.
The lack of response is not surprising since you haven't suggested a ball park cost figure. That coupled with the likely exorbitant cost to ship such a large container almost certainly puts the delivered price beyond what most people on the forum expect to be affordable.
I would be interested but the costs of shipping across the border, coupled with the disparity between the US and Canadian dollar makes it far more attractive to have one built here, even without knowing your prices.
I didn't include the pressure build up calculation because the pressure only builds if you block off or otherwise defeat the function of the vent tube. Removing the expansion tank does not have to impact the function of the vent line unless you choose to block it.
Maybe part of GM's worst case scenario analysis is that the line to the purge canister is plugged or the purge valve is plugged.
Will, I was rethinking the part of the check valve. When I took the one from my 87 apart I found the needle and seat and a heavy fairly big ball. I put it to the grinder to see what it is made of. It is made of brass. I think I was wrong about this being a check valve. I think it is a roll over valve. The brass ball is way to heavy to move up with the flow of gas. The vent hole is less than 1/8 inch. Just wouldn't be enough flow to allow the ball to be pushed up. The ball is quite heavy and would fall into a sealed position if the car was on it's roof.
I think I would be interested in a 15 gallon tank too. Would it fit an 84? My little 10 gallon tank really bugs me. Would you be fitting in that brass turn over ball? Would that necessitate a rubber seal? Just thinking out loud. And really dude alot of these guys are just bouncing stuff off your head. Makes you think and come up with better ways. I think what your doing is great. But 300 miles is my limit for getting out of the car. My old bones and joints need stretching even if I am capable of doing that in 3 hours.
By the way I have the only 1984 Enterra in existance. I am trying to see if I can get someone to help me put a Northstar in it? Know anybody who could help me with that. supertraffic123@yahoo.com
I think I would be interested in a 15 gallon tank too. Would it fit an 84? My little 10 gallon tank really bugs me. Would you be fitting in that brass turn over ball? Would that necessitate a rubber seal? Just thinking out loud. And really dude alot of these guys are just bouncing stuff off your head. Makes you think and come up with better ways. I think what your doing is great. But 300 miles is my limit for getting out of the car. My old bones and joints need stretching even if I am capable of doing that in 3 hours.
By the way I have the only 1984 Enterra in existance. I am trying to see if I can get someone to help me put a Northstar in it? Know anybody who could help me with that. supertraffic123@yahoo.com
i was wondering why an 84 would need a bigger tank until i saw that you had an Enterra . I think this tank is a great idea for people with 3800 and V8 swaps .With my ecotec , i already have a long enough range .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-27-2014).]
I have been seeing some interest in the 3 versions of the tanks I designed. I need to have at least 10 people serious about buying a tank before I go any further. "Serious" isn't a commitment to buy a tank, just enough to send your email. If I get 10, and have Email addresses, I can get prices and you can have prices. 10 orders is a break even point to cover the costs of a minimum order of Stainless and the CAD programing fee for the cutting.
So far it doesn't look like there is enough interest to warrant building tanks. I'll keep the names I have on file. It seems 10 is the magic number for breaking even - cost wise.
I am trying to get 10 people interested enough to email me. I think, but can't be sure, that the price for the 15 gallon will be in the $600 neighborhood. If I'm only making 2 or 3 the cost is much higher. I'm just trying to get enough people interested enough to put their name on a list. The more tanks I make the more the price for minimum orders and set charges goes down and the price of the tanks goes down. If the minimum order for stainless is $500 and the cad program for the laser cutting is $300, the cutting for 1 is $100 and then the forming - you can see that one tank could cost $1200 to make. The more tanks I make at one time, the cheaper they are.
Hang in there Woody. I'm sure there will eventually be enough of us to get it into your $600 range. I would be interested at that price. What if we could get 20 of us lined up. Would that be able to get them significantly less? I'm a ways from getting the V8 swap but I would be very interested in increasing my range into a normal tank size.
(pm sent).
