Let us remember that not everything we find easy is easy for everyone else, and not everything that is difficult is difficult for everyone else... Just because it took someone longer to do it doesn't mean they did it wrong, and just because it took someone less time doesn't mean they did it wrong either.
I am, not a total idiot (though some might disagree lol) when it comes to wiring. I can wire up most things if they make sense. Is there some sort of wiring diagram that is labeled and color coded, or how do you know what wire from the fiero goes to the obd I. does every thing get hardwired and soldered or are there connector that plug in or what? Where do you get the new computer, are there certain cars to look for? Does the new computer have to be modified to run the 3x00 or 3.4 in the fiero? Does it have to again modified to run forced induction? I am sorry to sound so dumb, but the last vehicle I turboed was a 1971 Suburban, not a lot of wiring to trip you up. Thanks Van
Originally posted by masospaghetti: As someone who just completed my first engine swap ever and did the 3500 swap, I wouldn't say that its easy. It took me about six months and I'm still working on the tune. I'm sure its easy compared to some other swaps but it's still a lot of work and a lot of parts to get together, where a 3.4 swap seems like it would be doable in a weekend.
From reading the below... you did everything the hard way.
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Originally posted by masospaghetti: The 3500 requires an external crank trigger for the 7x signal (the 3400 has an internal one); It also requires a different throttle body, coil pack, and fuel rail since it uses a returnless system. The 3500 also came with "header" style manifolds, I have no idea if these can be made to fit, but I had to use 3100/3400 crossover manifolds. Perhaps not dealbreakers, but still extra work.
I adapted my Fiero accessories to fit my aluminum head 3500 but it required fabrication to do so.
The VVT 3500 and 3900 require some provisions to deal with the cam phaser and are significantly different than the early LX9 3500. Has anyone successfully swapped one of these into a Fiero?
As 3500's were used exclusively in FWD vehicles, I would expect that the FWD manifolds and exhaust crossover could be used, one way or another. That's been done plenty of times with 3800's and 3.4 TDC's.
There's no reason to use the external crank trigger or change out any of the control components you mention if you get the original 3500 ECM worked for stand-alone operation, which any shop with HP Tuners *should* be able to do. Also, Sinister Fiero on this forum could do it. Obviously, if you use the ECM that originally came with the engine, there's no requirement to spend time tuning it.
You don't need to adapt the Fiero accessories to the engine to get it to fit and mount... just low mount the alternator. That does require fab, but not as much as swapping the entire accessory drive over.
Like I said... you did everything the hard way.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-17-2014).]
I am, not a total idiot (though some might disagree lol) when it comes to wiring. I can wire up most things if they make sense. Is there some sort of wiring diagram that is labeled and color coded, or how do you know what wire from the fiero goes to the obd I. does every thing get hardwired and soldered or are there connector that plug in or what? Where do you get the new computer, are there certain cars to look for? Does the new computer have to be modified to run the 3x00 or 3.4 in the fiero? Does it have to again modified to run forced induction? I am sorry to sound so dumb, but the last vehicle I turboed was a 1971 Suburban, not a lot of wiring to trip you up. Thanks Van
there are pinouts for the ECM's out there, you can go 7730 or '165, both are fairly well supported. the 7730 is a much more common swap,
I've posted valid information in this thread. where you, yet again have not.
Perfect example:
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Originally posted by lou_dias: La Fiera's CNC ported iron heads flowed185 cfm which is what 3400 Gen3 heads flow stock.
once again, you post false info.
stock 3100/3400 heads(same casting):
Stock 3500 heads:
if you weren't spewing bullsht, I wouldn't post against what you are saying. stop spreading lies/false info. you've been proven wrong over and over and then you just resort to name-calling instead of backing up your information. I'm not on a crusade to protect the "honor" of the aluminum heads, I'm on a crusade to see real information posted, with at least moderately scientific data points to back it up.
So when the stock 3400 cam has only .436" of lift and your paperwork says your heads flow 187cfn at .400" and 200cfm at .450", I guess I was totally off base there...because in other tests I've seen 185 cfm and no 2 heads will flow the same not even on the same flowbench ... but I'm the one spreading crap...
So when the stock 3400 cam has only .436" of lift and your paperwork says your heads flow 187cfn at .400" and 200cfm at .450", I guess I was totally off base there...because in other tests I've seen 185 cfm and no 2 heads will flow the same not even on the same flowbench ... but I'm the one spreading crap...
/rolleyes
lou,
even the most scientific of tests have some margin of variance, tests have criteria to minimize the variance. this is why test results are typically averaged. you are also implying that every head cast by GM is exactly identical, core shift happens, it existed for the iron heads, and will continue to exist until they stop casting heads...
the flow data I have for la fiera's fully cnc ported heads shows 173 CFM on the intake at .400" lift, where the 3400 heads flow 187+ cfm, and 3500 heads flow 209+CFM. don't even get me started on low lift flow, the aluminum heads are up by 35+CFM for 3400 heads, and 60+cfm for 3500 heads.
if we were talking differences of 2-3 cfm, I could see where the differences in flow benches could be considered an issue, but we are talking about differences of up to 60+cfm, that is pretty hard to write off as test equipment discrepancies.
again, please post something to back up your data, don't just say they're better, back them up. stand behind your statements, with test data and performance results.
I have backed up my claims with performance results from numerous vehicles, both FWD, RWD, manual and automatic and flow data from various sources, yet you have provided effectively nothing to bolster your points, because you have nothing, you are wrong.
------------------ 1st class A**hole.
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
As 3500's were used exclusively in FWD vehicles, I would expect that the FWD manifolds and exhaust crossover could be used, one way or another. That's been done plenty of times with 3800's and 3.4 TDC's.
I'm sure the original manifolds could be used, but would require additional exhaust plumbing since each header would dump on opposite sides of the engine.
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There's no reason to use the external crank trigger or change out any of the control components you mention if you get the original 3500 ECM worked for stand-alone operation, which any shop with HP Tuners *should* be able to do. Also, Sinister Fiero on this forum could do it. Obviously, if you use the ECM that originally came with the engine, there's no requirement to spend time tuning it.
You don't need to adapt the Fiero accessories to the engine to get it to fit and mount... just low mount the alternator. That does require fab, but not as much as swapping the entire accessory drive over.
Like I said... you did everything the hard way.
I'm sure it would have been easier to do what you said and use the OBD2 PCM.
I thought that the accessory drive would essentially bolt-on, so I could save my accessories (which were all basically new) and not have to get custom lines run for my air conditioning pump. If you low mount the alternator, there's no place for the air conditioner. As it turns out, I was wrong and it was not a simple bolt-on affair, but the end result allowed me to reuse my accessories and retain my A/C system which was one of my ultimate goals. I could have notched the decklid but I still would have had to make custom air conditioner lines to hook it up.
That being said, I'm sure it would have been easier to do that than to do what I did, but that was the thinking behind it anyway.
I also didn't know how the stock 3500 computer would behave with a manual transmission and how well it would interface with some other stuff, like the Fiero instruments. I knew the 7730 would run it all without any problems.
the 3500 ecu when i last checked hadnt been `cracked` to be modded, i think a few settings were changeable but for the most part, it was very limited to what could be done with it, and it still needed the BCM, etc to function.
the 3500's exhaust manifolds do not use a crossover like previous years, you can use the 3400 crossover setup, just alittle restrictive, im using 2 "front" manifolds, they point straight down(the rear manifold points "out" and can be used if you removed the trunk), almost like a V8, or have a set made.
I'm sure the original manifolds could be used, but would require additional exhaust plumbing since each header would dump on opposite sides of the engine.
I'm sure it would have been easier to do what you said and use the OBD2 PCM.
I thought that the accessory drive would essentially bolt-on, so I could save my accessories (which were all basically new) and not have to get custom lines run for my air conditioning pump. If you low mount the alternator, there's no place for the air conditioner. As it turns out, I was wrong and it was not a simple bolt-on affair, but the end result allowed me to reuse my accessories and retain my A/C system which was one of my ultimate goals. I could have notched the decklid but I still would have had to make custom air conditioner lines to hook it up.
That being said, I'm sure it would have been easier to do that than to do what I did, but that was the thinking behind it anyway.
I also didn't know how the stock 3500 computer would behave with a manual transmission and how well it would interface with some other stuff, like the Fiero instruments. I knew the 7730 would run it all without any problems.
Did your engine come with the original manifolds? Do you know what they look like? GM never used the 3400 or 3500 in any longitudinal app. They were all transverse. That means that the stock exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe are set up for transverse mounting. On all the other transverse GM setups I've ever seen, there's a crossover pipe from the front manifold around the engine, over the transmission which either connects to the rear manifold outlet or shows up right next to it and dumps into a common Y-pipe. There are plenty of photos on this forum of how people have dealt with that, but it's pretty simple.
All the FWD Gen II and later 60 degree engines I've ever seen have the waterpump and A/C compressor low on the front side, the PS pump on top and the alternator high mounted in the rear. Lowering the alternator does not interfere with the A/C comp in any way. Low mounting it means putting it essentially where it is on the 2.8.
"Custom" lines are actually very easy to make... just take the end tubes and required hose lengths to a shop that does Gates hydraulic assemblies (e.g. most CarQuest locations) and they can put it all together for you.
While the non-VVT 3500 was never used with a stick, the 3900 was used with one in the '06/'07 G6 GTP. I would expect that computer to adapt readily.
the 3500 ecu when i last checked hadnt been `cracked` to be modded, i think a few settings were changeable but for the most part, it was very limited to what could be done with it, and it still needed the BCM, etc to function.
the 3500's exhaust manifolds do not use a crossover like previous years, you can use the 3400 crossover setup, just alittle restrictive, im using 2 "front" manifolds, they point straight down(the rear manifold points "out" and can be used if you removed the trunk), almost like a V8, or have a set made.
I thought HPTuners had pretty much everything open.
AHH... thanks for the info on the manifolds. I had not seen that setup before. Are there pics posted anywhere?
I know some of you will think I made the wrong call, but I bought a 3.4 from a 95 Camaro yesterday. The plan is 2 build it up for a turbo build. Shooting for 300+ HP. Port and polish intake, head and exhaust, T3\T4 turbo, 272 cam, 10 to 12 lbs boost. Built t-125 with a 4 speed auto in the future. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Van ,
your car your call! I highly recommend you visit 60degreev6.com and post your progress and build on that site also, they can give a lot of advice... also they have a store WOT-Tech, can get some nice cam's springs, etc for that setup..... and when your ready, there is plenty of info on a top-end-swap, drop some 3500 heads on that engine, and a larger turbo
looking forward to the build thread, fair warning tho, the 3.4 isn't known to hold 300hp very well, if you blow it up, put the 3400 block in it, and swap everything over.
I know some of you will think I made the wrong call, but I bought a 3.4 from a 95 Camaro yesterday. The plan is 2 build it up for a turbo build. Shooting for 300+ HP. Port and polish intake, head and exhaust, T3\T4 turbo, 272 cam, 10 to 12 lbs boost. Built t-125 with a 4 speed auto in the future. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Van ,
Good luck with your build. If your goal is truly a turbo'd engine, I'd look for a more turbo-friendly cam.
What crossover? I run true duel, one muffler on the front and one on the back, one goes where the cat was and one goes where the stock muffler was. Larry
Do you have a pic of the cross-under or cross-over pipe?
That's the style of manifold that came on my engine. There is no crossover pipe, the two banks connect into a y-pipe downstream of the engine.
Here is the stock routing (courtesy of Walker):
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Originally posted by Will:
Did your engine come with the original manifolds? Do you know what they look like? GM never used the 3400 or 3500 in any longitudinal app. They were all transverse. That means that the stock exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe are set up for transverse mounting. On all the other transverse GM setups I've ever seen, there's a crossover pipe from the front manifold around the engine, over the transmission which either connects to the rear manifold outlet or shows up right next to it and dumps into a common Y-pipe. There are plenty of photos on this forum of how people have dealt with that, but it's pretty simple.
This is how I routed mine by using a crossover pipe from a 3100. I'm sure its more restrictive than the original manifolds, but it helps the packaging enough that it was worth it for me.
quote
Originally posted by Will:
All the FWD Gen II and later 60 degree engines I've ever seen have the waterpump and A/C compressor low on the front side, the PS pump on top and the alternator high mounted in the rear. Lowering the alternator does not interfere with the A/C comp in any way. Low mounting it means putting it essentially where it is on the 2.8.
OK, I understand. A lot of swaps I've seen put the alternator down where the compressor usually sits.
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While the non-VVT 3500 was never used with a stick, the 3900 was used with one in the '06/'07 G6 GTP. I would expect that computer to adapt readily.
AFAIK the computers were completely different between the non-VVT LX9 3500 and the VVT LZ4 3500 / VVT LZ9 3900. The later motors with VVT used a separate engine and transmission computer while the early non-VVT motors used a combined ECM/TCM. Whether the VVT computer can run the non-VVT engine, I have no idea.
hookdonspeed, were you able to hook up all of the gauges, etc and have them function with the stock 3500 computer? How about a/c control?
the 3500's exhaust manifolds do not use a crossover like previous years, you can use the 3400 crossover setup, just alittle restrictive, im using 2 "front" manifolds, they point straight down(the rear manifold points "out" and can be used if you removed the trunk), almost like a V8, or have a set made.
My Saturn Relay minivan would beg to differ... same factory power rating as well.
But I agree, I'm using the two front Malibu manifolds as well...
hookdonspeed, were you able to hook up all of the gauges, etc and have them function with the stock 3500 computer? How about a/c control?
all my gauges work fine... i DID have to get different temp sender gauge and a wiring pigtail for it (3wire vs 2wire) for my gauge to work...
http://www.britishcarconver...rowse&category_id=29 its a sensor from an earlier year "turned down" to fit the LX9 heads. then the harness piece to plug into the stock fitting from the LX9 harness, and i picked up the other end wire piece to goto the temp gauge.
AC system is not installed, i dont see where it would be a problem hooking it up if i wanted tho....
that site i posted also has some other `goodies` you might be interested in... (i,e, the manifold flanges to make exhaust to fit the `front` manifold)
What crossover? I run true duel, one muffler on the front and one on the back, one goes where the cat was and one goes where the stock muffler was. Larry
The crossover GM used when they installed the engine in a car.
fair warning tho, the 3.4 isn't known to hold 300hp very well, if you blow it up, put the 3400 block in it, and swap everything over.
What is the weak spot? I had heard that they will do about 10 to 12 lbs of boost with no problem and have seen a car running 16 with no problems. In fact over on the other site you mentioned they said no one has actually blown up a 3.4 from too much power that they know of. They are usually killed by detonation. Any help would be appreciated.
Good luck with your build. If your goal is truly a turbo'd engine, I'd look for a more turbo-friendly cam.
Are you running a Turbo? That is definately my goal. That cam was recommended to me by someone running 12 lbs of boost in a 93 camaro. What would be a better choice? Why? Thanks Van
What is the weak spot? I had heard that they will do about 10 to 12 lbs of boost with no problem and have seen a car running 16 with no problems. In fact over on the other site you mentioned they said no one has actually blown up a 3.4 from too much power that they know of. They are usually killed by detonation. Any help would be appreciated.
the 3.4 or 3400? 3.4's like to bend rods/self detonate... 3400's seem to be pretty strong.
The bottom end of the 3.4 and 3400 are the same, the iron head combustion chambers, by their design, are more prone to detonation than the aluminum head chambers of the 3400, so they can handle more boost/compression. I have a 3.1 aluminum head engine that is running 12 to 1 CR with no problems, It does have a fairly radical cam with lots of overlap so it bleads off a little, but still they are much better than the iron heads. Larry
Originally posted by Vanet: Are you running a Turbo? That is definately my goal. That cam was recommended to me by someone running 12 lbs of boost in a 93 camaro. What would be a better choice? Why? Thanks Van
It has been but a cam with less overlap is generally recommended. Speak to user Joseph Upson as he could recommend a custom grid for you.
The bottom end of the 3.4 and 3400 are the same, the iron head combustion chambers, by their design, are more prone to detonation than the aluminum head chambers of the 3400, so they can handle more boost/compression. I have a 3.1 aluminum head engine that is running 12 to 1 CR with no problems, It does have a fairly radical cam with lots of overlap so it bleads off a little, but still they are much better than the iron heads. Larry
The 3.4 and 3400 are the same bottom end, was my understanding as well. By porting and polishing the heads, they should flow better, (not as good as the aluminum) and more importantly it will get rid of a lot of the hot spots that can cause detonation. As far as the cam goes, it is my understanding that a cam with more overlap is better for a turbo, since it allows more boost because the cam will "bleed off" some of the boost causing less stress on the engine. No?
I have never built a 3.4, so I dont know the combinations that work best if someone does, chime in. Thanks Van
[This message has been edited by Vanet (edited 04-22-2014).]
The 3.4 and 3400 are the same bottom end, was my understanding as well. By porting and polishing the heads, they should flow better, (not as good as the aluminum) and more importantly it will get rid of a lot of the hot spots that can cause detonation. As far as the cam goes, it is my understanding that a cam with more overlap is better for a turbo, since it allows more boost because the cam will "bleed off" some of the boost causing less stress on the engine. No?
I have never built a 3.4, so I dont know the combinations that work best if someone does, chime in. Thanks Van
If you're bleeding off boost, then you effectively have less of it. The point of a turbo cam is so you get maximum power out of the boost your turbo is making. So you could run 10psi with a turbo specific cam and make the same power as another motor with 12psi that is bleeding off some boost into the exhaust stream...
It is very easy and not expensive at all to get a custom grind done. This is the one I had done for my carbed 3100 with 12 to 1cr. You just tell them what you want to do and they can tell you what grind to make up. I use 1.6 rockers, so my lift is a little more, I chose the lift to match the springs I wanted to use. When you do a custom grind you can get anything you want. I just buy a new cam on ebay for about $50.00 delivered and have it ground, grinding is $60.00 for anything you want. Call them up, nice people. Larry
[This message has been edited by trotterlg (edited 04-22-2014).]
not really true, the 3400 uses cross bolted mains, and my understanding is that the oil flow is improved in the 3400, and, if you consider it bottom end, the roller cam.
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Originally posted by trotterlg: the iron head combustion chambers, by their design, are more prone to detonation than the aluminum head chambers of the 3400, so they can handle more boost/compression. I have a 3.1 aluminum head engine that is running 12 to 1 CR with no problems, It does have a fairly radical cam with lots of overlap so it bleads off a little, but still they are much better than the iron heads. Larry
this is very true, the 3400 heads have a way better chamber design that will work better for high cylinder pressure(high compression or boost) then the iron heads. the primary influence here is the chamber design and not the material, although the material does help too.
The design of the aluminum heads is definatley better, and they flow much more. The porting and polishing of the iron heads does make them flow better, but as far as a turbo application goes the design becomes less of a factor the more boost you add and the port work is less of a factor and the polishing is more of a factor. Most heads have little dimples, protusions, mold marks and other, for lack of a better word, chunks of metal sticking out into the flow stream. By polishing the flow path these irregularities are blended in with the metal around them so everything heats up more equally. When you have protusions that can heat up, they can act much like a spark plug and pre-detonate the fuel before it is supposed to. So a good port and polish on the intake, heads and exhaust will make them flow better, but it will also help with detonation. You also use a colder plug which helps.
By having a cam with more overlap it bleeds off some compression for a moment until the valve shuts. Then the compression will still build to its maximum, it doesnt hurt your performance, it just acts like a clutch of sorts. kinda like the difference between reving your car and dropping the clutch, and easing the clutch out. Both accomplish the same thing in the end, but one way is much harder on parts. At least that is the way it was explained to me on a different turbo build we did last year. Van
As far as the bottom end goes, the 2.8 was known for having an oiling problem. From talking to 60'v-6 guys, this was fixed on the 3.4 and the only thing different between the 3.4 and the 3400 is the pistons, cam, and heads the bottom ends are the same. I have never been into both to verify this, but it seems to be the consensus among the people who know about these engines. If someone has proof otherwise, I would like to see it, since this is one of the main reasons I went the way I did. Thanks Van
Just because it took someone longer to do it doesn't mean they did it wrong, and just because it took someone less time doesn't mean they did it wrong either.
