When you put iron heads on a 3400 block without changing pistons, you end up with a compression ratio in the mid 7's. Aluminum heads have smaller combustion chambers and the pistons have a larger dish than 3.4 pistons. Using 3.4 DOHC pistons with iron heads raises the compression ratio between 9.7ish and 9.965 depending on your bore and what head gasket you used.
Fierosound's motor and my motor are considered "hybrids" since we combine parts from the Fiero, 3400 and 3.4 TDC motor. The only custom parts needed to make it work are 5.85" pushrods and stud adapters for 1.6 roller rocker arms... A website WOT-TECH sells some high lift roller cams for the 3400 block. I haven't looked in a while but there may be a turbo grind there too.
See the 1st page or two of this thread for some pics and part #'s
I get why you changed out the pistons and crank now. You were shooting for a certain compression ratio. But why use the fiero intake, if it flows as bad as everyone says? Also several on here have said the roller cams that are available for these engine dont work very well is this true? If not how much am I loosing going to a custom grind with out changing the block to use the roller cam. Thanks Van
let the adults talk now? wow...believe what you want, do what you want, you're just another certified expert on pff....
This wasnt directed at you as is obvious. But yet you take offense? Are you just some blind Will desciple? Is this some kind of a club I have stumbled on? A "lets go show everyone how smart we are club?
I have never claimed to be an expert on anything Fiero related I simply state a few common facts and mentioned that I had 7 turbo charged vehicles. Both are true, and I am still fishing for (and getting from some) some good advice as it relates to this engine in a Fiero.
I just put a turbocharger on an Offroad buggy we have had for a while. Did all the fabrication, tuned it and am very happy with it. It would have been my 8th turbo, but I sold one the other day, so still at 7. AND I AM STILL NOT AN EXPERT ON TURBOS OR FIEROS OR 3.4 liter GM ENGINES. Just because someone can fab up the exhaust, intake, and piping to install a turbo doesnt make them an expert.
So join in the conversation, go away, go hang out in Wills moms basement or what ever you want, but as stated before please bring something helpful or move on. Thanks Van
On page 13 or 14 of that thread, someone flowtested the Fiero intake and found that when you do the DAWG intake neck mod that the intake flows enough for a 3.4 to about 5800rpm. With the restricted intake neck, I made 187 rwhp at the ~4200 rpm and 249 ft*lbs at 3600 rpm on a Mustang dyno which you can see on page 3. This one reads about 5% lower than the local dynojet shops... That's also before I installed an underdrive pulley which was good for +6 rwhp and +8 ft*lbs on the dyno.
I have has some major wiring issues when I switched to the '7730 ECM and higher flowing Trueleo intake and made less power due to those issues. I should have made more power. Other isues have crept up over time. I've been working thru them and I'm down to a bad spark plug/wire or coil...OR a bad injector wire. I have a miss on 1 or 2 cylinders right now. If it's actually 2 then it's probably one of the coils... I believe I've resolved the bad crank position sensor signal issue. Lost the serpentine belt last night so it will be a week before I get back to figuring it out.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 04-24-2014).]
Lou, I had read through your build before, but I skiped the junk where people were just causing trouble since i was hunting info.
I just read through the last 4 or 5 pages again and noticed it was the same Bozo's giving you trouble as have been disrupting this post. I dont feel nearly as special now. LOL I guess they just spend all there time trolling around trying to convince everyone how smart they are. Pity they wont just go away. Van
PS. I am with you, it would be nice to see if a modified stock intake set up would flow as much as the truleo. I hope somebody puts them on the same bench one of these days. I think for now I am going to clean up the three pieces of the stock one, round out the throat and see where I am at. If it doesnt get me where I want to be, then maybe build a truleo style unit. Thanks for the help Van
You can also compensate for the poor flowing iron heads by using a cam with a lower lobe seperation angle, (LSA). Computer controlled cars typicaly run a cam with large LSA's, if you look you will see the very early cams for the carbed engines had smaller LSA's. I think stock is about 113 degrees and I am running one with 99 degrees on alumunum heads. You will loose some fuel effeiency and the idle may be a little lumpy. Larry
This wasnt directed at you as is obvious. But yet you take offense? Are you just some blind Will desciple? Is this some kind of a club I have stumbled on? A "lets go show everyone how smart we are club?
I have never claimed to be an expert on anything Fiero related I simply state a few common facts and mentioned that I had 7 turbo charged vehicles. Both are true, and I am still fishing for (and getting from some) some good advice as it relates to this engine in a Fiero.
I just put a turbocharger on an Offroad buggy we have had for a while. Did all the fabrication, tuned it and am very happy with it. It would have been my 8th turbo, but I sold one the other day, so still at 7. AND I AM STILL NOT AN EXPERT ON TURBOS OR FIEROS OR 3.4 liter GM ENGINES. Just because someone can fab up the exhaust, intake, and piping to install a turbo doesnt make them an expert.
So join in the conversation, go away, go hang out in Wills moms basement or what ever you want, but as stated before please bring something helpful or move on. Thanks Van
because you quoted me directly, I'll take a second to respond, my remark wasn't aimed to defend Will, I do see where it could be interpreted that way though, it was more a stab at your immaturity, you've been faced with facts that you refuse to acknowledge for some reason. you claim to be on the hunt for information, yet anytime information is posted, you ignore it, again, not sure why.
I'll be the first to admit that I've skimmed over a topic and missed something before, but the comment about the bottom ends(at the end of this post between the lines) was said at least 3 times before you read it. if you really were a teacher I'd hate to think how the grading went...
if you think I single you or lou out, or that I praise the ground certain people walk on, that would be a gross concept error, I call out bullsht when I see it, if anyone posts bullsht, I make a point to show that it's bullsht and why, or at a minimum request that you back up your statement. I don't think I'm the smartest person on this site, or anywhere for that matter, I do work in a field that requires quite a bit of critical thinking and going beyond the scope of the initial project, and I also don't speak of things I know nothing of unless inquiring into how or why. like I said, I don't care what you do with your car, it's not mine, and I never intend to drive it either way, I have my own car that I built my way with my two hands.
not really true, the 3400 uses cross bolted mains, and my understanding is that the oil flow is improved in the 3400, and, if you consider it bottom end, the roller cam.
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg: the iron head combustion chambers, by their design, are more prone to detonation than the aluminum head chambers of the 3400, so they can handle more boost/compression. I have a 3.1 aluminum head engine that is running 12 to 1 CR with no problems, It does have a fairly radical cam with lots of overlap so it bleads off a little, but still they are much better than the iron heads. Larry
this is very true, the 3400 heads have a way better chamber design that will work better for high cylinder pressure(high compression or boost) then the iron heads. the primary influence here is the chamber design and not the material, although the material does help too.
Yes, the 3100 and 3400 have an oil pan that is structural, it bolts into the main caps to stiffen things up. I was referring to the crank, rods and bearings which all fit each other. It you want a really nice build, start out with a block from a 3XXX and put whatever top end you want on it. You can use a complete 2.8 internals in a 3100 along with the iron fiero heads and still have a better engine than a stock 2.8. There is no problem with the aluminum oil pan clearing anything, it is just a better design. Just a note, some earlier 2.8's had smaller journal sizes on the mains, so that is one thing to watch out for. Larry
Someone showed me the other fiero forum were Will normally plys his crap. While at the same time running down Archie and others that have actually done stuff in the Fiero world. Now I understand. He is one of these wanna bes that lives in his moms basement and hates everybody out doing while he tells everyone how smart he is.
SOOO WILL how is that 7year project to put an LS in a Fiero coming anyway. LOL Thanks for your comments, but several people who are trying to be helpful are doing just fine, so you can move along!
So much reading comprehension fail. For such a short post that's impressive.
Like I said before... everything I post is to help you learn. If your pride's in the way or for some reason you're under the impression that you've already learned everything, I can't do anything about that.
So... How's that ideal gas law working out for you?
EDIT: Also curious about how many of the 129,448 posts on RFT you read to create your comprehensive assessment.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-25-2014).]
Anyway... if you do end up with a 3400 block at some point, you can get pretty much any cam profile you want from WOT-TECH.com, he only lists a couple of pre-selected cams (which have proven to be dang good), but Ben has access to all lobe profiles that Comp Cams has to offer, he offers a cam selection assistance service to help you get what you want, it only costs money if you decide to not buy a cam from him. They do cost significantly more than a regrind from Delta, as trotterlg pointed out, which is also great if you already know what you want. http://wot-tech.com/shop/gm...mshaft/prod_162.html
Someone showed me the other fiero forum were Will normally plys his crap. While at the same time running down Archie and others that have actually done stuff in the Fiero world. Now I understand. He is one of these wanna bes that lives in his moms basement and hates everybody out doing while he tells everyone how smart he is.
SOOO WILL how is that 7year project to put an LS in a Fiero coming anyway. LOL Thanks for your comments, but several people who are trying to be helpful are doing just fine, so you can move along!
I can just the PMs flying behind the scene...
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"Look, don't listen to Will, he posts of RFT..." "What's RFT?" "Oh it's this other forum where no one does anything but bash people on Pennock's..." "Really?? That's horrible." "Isn't it though? Look, here's a thread I cherry picked, of this very 'The Dark Side of Will', commenting on a thread from PFF..." "Wow, he's a jerk! I sure am glad you opened my eyes, there's no way any one who makes comments over there could be helpful..."
If you actually read Will's thread, about his NORTHSTAR rebuild/swap, you'd see why he's taking/taken so long.
What's really funny is you accuse ericjon262 of having no experience and just writing a check for his swap, when lou_dias did that very thing. He has reminded me many times that his swap was no work for him at all, it was easy! hookdonspeed did his own work, Will did his own work, masospaghetti did his own work, sleevePAPA did his own work, and yes, ericjon262 did his own work. As far as I can tell, so have totterlg and fierosound. Is it any wonder that a lot of people that do their own work, also have another screen name, heck even the same screen name on RFT. There are so many people with great hands on experience that are now either gone or just sit in Totally Off Topic because of threads like this.
Yes, the 3100 and 3400 have an oil pan that is structural, it bolts into the main caps to stiffen things up. I was referring to the crank, rods and bearings which all fit each other. It you want a really nice build, start out with a block from a 3XXX and put whatever top end you want on it. You can use a complete 2.8 internals in a 3100 along with the iron fiero heads and still have a better engine than a stock 2.8. There is no problem with the aluminum oil pan clearing anything, it is just a better design. Just a note, some earlier 2.8's had smaller journal sizes on the mains, so that is one thing to watch out for. Larry
To use a Gen 1 timing cover with the aluminum oil pan (Gen 3 block), it has to come from an 87-88 Fiero V6 or the Camarobird 3.4L. The small journal 2.8 was pre-Fiero (1980-84), you don't want anything to do with it or it's small valve heads...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 04-25-2014).]
...gee carbon, I'm sorry for not having my own garage and tools in the past and a machine shop in my basement... In recent times, I have been the one fixing wires and replacing things on the top end of my motor...and tuning.
I'll always have to depend on a machine shop for machining. I'll always have to depend on a real shop for engine removel/re-installation.
That doesn't make me less knowledgeable. My background is computer programming but I did start out in engineering and understand physics better than most. I'm sorry that I've failed to turn enough wrenches for you...
Yes, the 3100 and 3400 have an oil pan that is structural, it bolts into the main caps to stiffen things up. I was referring to the crank, rods and bearings which all fit each other. It you want a really nice build, start out with a block from a 3XXX and put whatever top end you want on it. You can use a complete 2.8 internals in a 3100 along with the iron fiero heads and still have a better engine than a stock 2.8. There is no problem with the aluminum oil pan clearing anything, it is just a better design. Just a note, some earlier 2.8's had smaller journal sizes on the mains, so that is one thing to watch out for. Larry
I was under the impression that the aluminum oil pan has to be clearanced to allow the Fiero engine mount bracket to bolt up.
The front bracket bolts to the front of the block, not the oil pan. The 3XXX aluminum pans have mounting bolts in the bottom front to use if you want for a front mount. I used them because I used the old engine mount bolt positions to mount the low alternator. Larry
...gee carbon, I'm sorry for not having my own garage and tools in the past and a machine shop in my basement... In recent times, I have been the one fixing wires and replacing things on the top end of my motor...and tuning.
I'll always have to depend on a machine shop for machining. I'll always have to depend on a real shop for engine removel/re-installation.
That doesn't make me less knowledgeable. My background is computer programming but I did start out in engineering and understand physics better than most.
That is exactly my point. I don't think I've ever called you names or said you didn't know what you were doing, only that I didn't agree with your head selection or how you compare your built engine to stock engines. The problems start when the 'just as good' or 'no benefit' comments about the iron vs. aluminum start up. The position that the iron heads with porting are 'just as good' as the aluminum heads is patently false, when you could have started with the aluminum and been that much further ahead.
Build what you're going to build, know that not everyone will agree with your decisions, either take the advice or do it your own way.
quote
Originally posted by Vanet:
I know some of you will think I made the wrong call, but I bought a 3.4 from a 95 Camaro yesterday. The plan is 2 build it up for a turbo build. Shooting for 300+ HP. Port and polish intake, head and exhaust, T3\T4 turbo, 272 cam, 10 to 12 lbs boost. Built t-125 with a 4 speed auto in the future. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Van
All this crap could have been diffused if, when Vanet posted this, people would have just given advice on how to get to 300HP with a turbo 3.4L Camarobird motor, which is entirely possible.
My thoughts don't always come out of my head the way I mean them. Sorry.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 04-25-2014).]
The front bracket bolts to the front of the block, not the oil pan. The 3XXX aluminum pans have mounting bolts in the bottom front to use if you want for a front mount. I used them because I used the old engine mount bolt positions to mount the low alternator. Larry
I know what it bolts to... was just under the impression there was some interference between the cast pan and the Fiero bracket... but Hookdonspeed says otherwise.
It seems to vary, the 88 V6 engine bracket will not clear, but it seems to on 85-87 brackets.
I have been contemplating using the stock 2.8 engine mount and then fabbing a bracket to use the 3400 timing cover style mount in place of a dog bone... you can kind of see the engine side of the mount right below the power steering in this pic...
Edit: Of course... that makes belt changes a pain... just like on my Grand Am GT. Edit: Even better view...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 04-25-2014).]
I know what it bolts to... was just under the impression there was some interference between the cast pan and the Fiero bracket... but Hookdonspeed says otherwise.
all you have to do it cut a tiny notch outa the front 2.8l fiero bracket, takes 2 minutes (literately) someone had posted a pic of it in my original build thread but its gone now just need to grind alittle away at the inside of the L bracket. (pre-88)
It seems to vary, the 88 V6 engine bracket will not clear, but it seems to on 85-87 brackets.
I have been contemplating using the stock 2.8 engine mount and then fabbing a bracket to use the 3400 timing cover style mount in place of a dog bone... you can kind of see the engine side of the mount right below the power steering in this pic...
Edit: Of course... that makes belt changes a pain... just like on my Grand Am GT.
the stock mount cannot be used with the TCE 7x wheel. would be very easy to fab up a mount using more mount locations the the stock pre-88 mount(or using that mount at a starting point) uses for anyone who has any metal fab ability's.
factory mount shown here "pushed" outa the way to mock fit the 7x ring and 24x balancer
all you have to do it cut a tiny notch outa the front 2.8l fiero bracket, takes 2 minutes (literately) someone had posted a pic of it in my original build thread but its gone now just need to grind alittle away at the inside of the L bracket. (pre-88)
I have posted this information and image before, but will again to keep the information out there.
This is my stock 86 Fiero V6 lower engine bracket (sand blasted) lining up perfectly with my 3400 oil pan. To be clear, this oil pan (and engine) is from a 2005 Chevy Equinox. NO modifications of ANY kind were necessary to use the STOCK 86 V6 Fiero Lower Engine Mount.
mine(06 G6 LX9) required trimming either the pan or the mount, I chose to trim the pan instead of the mount, it's pretty damn thick where the trimming needs to happen.
I don't think I've ever called you names or said you didn't know what you were doing, only that I didn't agree with your head selection or how you compare your built engine to stock engines. The problems start when the 'just as good' or 'no benefit' comments about the iron vs. aluminum start up. The position that the iron heads with porting are 'just as good' as the aluminum heads is patently false, when you could have started with the aluminum and been that much further ahead.
just need to grind alittle away at the inside of the L bracket. (pre-88)
