|
|
|
Twin disk clutch, what do I need? by Justinbart
Started on | : 08-19-2014 04:04 PM |
Replies | : 81 (3878 views) |
Last post by | : Justinbart on 02-23-2015 10:09 PM |
|
|
|
Sep 3rd, 2014
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
Tilton emailed me back. Their Chevy button flywheel is .700" so I should have plenty of room. They don't make any custom button flywheels and referred me to aascomotorsports. I forwarded my information to them. Anyone know what the flywheel bore is for a Chevy crank? ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
03:59 PM
|
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
I don't remember right off (google probably will...) but there are Chevy and LS engines at my dad's place I can measure.
|
08:53 PM
|
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
The 1-piece rear main seal ones are about 2.071" - same as the LS engine family as well, but the bolt patterns are different between the two. [This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-03-2014).]
|
08:54 PM
|
|
Sep 4th, 2014
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
For the 7.25" twin disk Cerametallic setup I thinking about the 66-302UGG pressure plate (910 ft/lb). Then i'll need the 64185-8-VV-12 disk pack to fit the F23 input shaft with 25mm x 14 spline.  Summitracing ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 09-04-2014).]
|
08:02 PM
|
|
Sep 5th, 2014
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
|
02:25 PM
|
|
Steven Snyder Member Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Car was making a strange noise last weekend. Took it apart this morning and found that the aluminum flywheel was loose. The bolts were loose and it was crack around the bolt circle so its trashed.
|
|
The aluminum creeps under the bolt heads. This happens often. A steel spreader plate might permit you to use an aluminum flywheel. I opted to go back to steel.
|
05:22 PM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
| quote | Originally posted by Steven Snyder:
The aluminum creeps under the bolt heads. This happens often. A steel spreader plate might permit you to use an aluminum flywheel. I opted to go back to steel.
|
|
AASCO emailed me back and said a button flywheel would be best and they can make me one. Waiting on price... It would be a billet steel unit. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
06:05 PM
|
|
Sep 6th, 2014
|
Steven Snyder Member Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
AASCO emailed me back and said a button flywheel would be best and they can make me one. Waiting on price... It would be a billet steel unit.
|
|
Awesome. A button flywheel will have minimal MOI. I would love to have that setup on my track car. [This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 09-06-2014).]
|
12:57 PM
|
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
|
01:32 PM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
I do not want to spend that kind of money on a new HTOB. I have a plan in the works and it involves wastegate parts, lol Edit: I was just thinking... SPEC makes a spacer that clips onto f23 Htob. I could have them machine down the outside to the required ~44mm OD with a 1/4" step. I need a dimension on where the pressure plate fingers sit to see if I have enough room. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 09-07-2014).]
|
09:15 PM
|
|
Sep 8th, 2014
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
The "stack height" from friction surface to throw out fingers is on the drawings. It's no t just the diameter of the TOB face... the face has to be convex/curved in order not to scrape across the ends of the fingers and wear them prematurely.
|
07:59 PM
|
|
PFF
System Bot
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
Oh yeah, duh. I looked at that number before. I'll have .460" of room at full worn. I'm hoping I can get that shape machined into the bearing cap. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
10:19 PM
|
|
Sep 9th, 2014
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
If you have that much room to work with, you might want to weld a smaller diameter spacer to the end of the Spec HTOB spacer, turn it true on a lathe and then round off the edges as needed.
|
06:41 AM
|
|
Sep 10th, 2014
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
AASCO wanted $600 for the button flywheel. LOL. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
05:17 PM
|
|
lateFormula Member Posts: 1048 From: Detroit Rock City Registered: Jul 2002
|
$600 for a new flywheel? If it will be a strong enough unit that you won't be concerned about breaking it then the price is worth it. How much did the two previous flywheels that broke cost you?
|
05:31 PM
|
|
Sep 11th, 2014
|
Steven Snyder Member Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
I do not want to spend that kind of money on a new HTOB. I have a plan in the works and it involves wastegate parts, lol
Edit: I was just thinking... SPEC makes a spacer that clips onto f23 Htob. I could have them machine down the outside to the required ~44mm OD with a 1/4" step. I need a dimension on where the pressure plate fingers sit to see if I have enough room. |
|
Don't try to get SPEC to do any custom work for you. It's either not going to happen or it's going to be wrong. You could get the stocked part from SPEC and machine it yourself.
|
06:54 PM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
Now thinking about getting a Ford small block button flywheel and welding a concentric ring to the flex plate ( spun on a lathe to true) then re drilling for the 3800 bolt pattern. I would also have to take .100" or more off the flywheel. It has a total thickness of .870". SBF has a 1.75" crank bore with a 2.75" bolt circle. I think the 3800 is ~2.5". Does anyone have any technical drawings of a 3800 flywheel? ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 09-11-2014).]
|
07:17 PM
|
|
Sep 12th, 2014
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
I would not recommend using an modified Ford unit. It probably is a 6 bolt pattern vs. the 8 of the 3800 so several of the holes will be significantly elongated. Even if it was an 8 bolt pattern and you could fit the 3800 bolt pattern in between all the existing hole, there would be much, much less material at the hub around the bolt pattern that could lead to the same cracking through all the holes - even with steel.
At your power levels and with the flywheel spinning at 7K right behind your back, I would highly recommend getting one made specifically to your application.
|
06:29 AM
|
|
FastIndyFiero Member Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Tilton emailed me back. Their Chevy button flywheel is .700" so I should have plenty of room. They don't make any custom button flywheels and referred me to aascomotorsports. I forwarded my information to them.
Anyone know what the flywheel bore is for a Chevy crank?
|
|
I measured 1.238" 2.475" ID on my SBC button flywhel for the SD4. *EDITED to correct radius/diameter mixup*Seen here:  And what I came up with for my app:  [This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 12-01-2014).]
|
09:46 AM
|
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
AASCO wanted $600 for the button flywheel. LOL.
|
|
Why LOL? How does that compare to off the shelf button flywheels? I don't think it's out of line for a one-off, especially if it meets SFI specs.
|
10:03 AM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
| quote | Originally posted by Will:
Why LOL? How does that compare to off the shelf button flywheels? I don't think it's out of line for a one-off, especially if it meets SFI specs. |
|
Off the shelf is $150. I can get a whole flywheel for cheaper. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
12:21 PM
|
|
PFF
System Bot
|
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
| quote | Originally posted by FastIndyFiero:
I measured 1.238" ID on my SBC button flywhel for the SD4. Seen here:

And what I came up with for my app:
 |
|
Did you mean 2.238"? I've emailed quartermaster but no response yet. Is that the part number on the flywheel. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 09-12-2014).]
|
12:24 PM
|
|
FastIndyFiero Member Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Did you mean 2.238"? I've emailed quartermaster but no response yet. Is that the part number on the flywheel.
|
|
Sorry, 2.475". I was thinking in radius when I retrieved that measurement and forgot to convert it  It is the QM PN. 505170 SC (scalloped). [This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 09-12-2014).]
|
04:11 PM
|
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart: Is that the part number on the flywheel. |
|
Shouldn't matter unless you want to run a 5 1/2" clutch instead of the 7 1/4" one.
|
07:03 PM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:
Shouldn't matter unless you want to run a 5 1/2" clutch instead of the 7 1/4" one. |
|
At the time he said it had a small crank bore and I wanted to cross reference it to a particular engine. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
07:36 PM
|
|
Sep 13th, 2014
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
Another idea: Get a flywheel insert for the 7.25 clutches. Machine mystery flywheel so the insert sits 0.100" above. Then get flywheel balanced matched. Weight would probably have to be added. Only problem is the insert will overhang about 0.25 on the inner diameter. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
05:14 AM
|
|
California Kid Member Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Another idea: Get a flywheel insert for the 7.25 clutches. Machine mystery flywheel so the insert sits 0.100" above. Then get flywheel balanced matched. Weight would probably have to be added. Only problem is the insert will overhang about 0.25 on the inner diameter.
|
|
Kinda similar to what you are thinking, this is the setup for my SBC. Insert is trapped by clutch housing (titianium QM) in compression, and also holes in insert at clutch mounting studs - anti rotation. Flywheel is steel, and you notice it is not much thicker than starter ring gear. Purpose of this design was to maximize surface contact with clutch disk, ie., no fastener pockets in insert face.
|
08:56 AM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
Where would I get that insert? I can find some similar pictures with image search but can't find any details or part numbers. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
04:51 PM
|
|
California Kid Member Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Where would I get that insert? I can find some similar pictures with image search but can't find any details or part numbers.
|
|
It's custom made original with no part number ( I suspect QM may have made it ). I could never find out any details on it, Replaced mine about 4 years back, had a local machine shop make it using original as template, as well as getting critical dimensions off flywheel. edit to add: you aren't going to like the price I paid, which was $160.00 for the insert. Also note mating surfaces of flywheel and insert must flush as close as possible to 0.0000 inch. [This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 09-13-2014).]
|
05:12 PM
|
|
Sep 16th, 2014
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
Another idea: Get a flywheel insert for the 7.25 clutches. Machine mystery flywheel so the insert sits 0.100" above. Then get flywheel balanced matched. Weight would probably have to be added. Only problem is the insert will overhang about 0.25 on the inner diameter.
|
|
As I've mentioned on CalKid's setup previously, having the friction surface be a separate piece from the flywheel means that it's hard to conduct heat away from the friction surface... the insert runs hotter and makes the entire clutch more susceptible to heat damage... which is already a big concern when driving a multi-disk clutch on the street.
|
09:55 AM
|
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
blaaahhh. I didn't want it to cost this much. If only I had an SBC... ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
04:16 PM
|
|
PFF
System Bot
|
|
Nov 30th, 2014
|
ericjon262 Member Posts: 3130 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
|
any updates here?
|
04:18 PM
|
|
1fast2m4 Member Posts: 514 From: Frederick, MD (U.S.A) Registered: Feb 2013
|
Have you called SPEC? They made me a one off Flywheel for a 03 Kia Spectra back in '03 (it later went into production) all I had to do was send them my stock flywheel I did the same thing in '11 on a On a Boss 302. Give them a call and don't bother with sales get a hold of someone in Tech. ------------------ 1986 SE 3800SC/4t65eHD (12.871@104.96) HX-40, FrozenBoost I/C, 80lb injectors & E85 Coming soon.....
|
06:45 PM
|
|
Dec 2nd, 2014
|
ericjon262 Member Posts: 3130 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
|
|
08:33 PM
|
|
Feb 22nd, 2015
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
|
10:59 AM
|
|
ericjon262 Member Posts: 3130 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
|
damn man, looking intense! ready for 9's? :P ------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich." https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html
|
06:20 PM
|
|
Will Member Posts: 14267 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
|
Your whole throw out mechanism is weird. Tilton recommends a ROUND faced through out bearing. This maintains the contact point at the same radius from the input shaft and the leverage on the pressure plate fingers the same throughout the pedal travel.
A large flat-faced contact surface like that will push on the throw out fingers closer to the pivot (at a larger radius from the input shaft) than the round faced TOB does. This will reduce your leverage on the PP spring and increase pedal effort. It may also booger up the throw out fingers or cause them to wear strangely.
If possible, go to a smaller master cylinder. That's probably the most straightforward way to reduce pedal effort and increase pedal travel.
|
09:45 PM
|
|
fieroguru Member Posts: 12428 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
|
It looks like the purpose of the raised portion of the throwout bearing spacer is so only it makes contact with the fingers. If it is tall enough, the fingers should not make contact with the larger diameter of the main throw out bearing spacer.
|
10:30 PM
|
|
Feb 23rd, 2015
|
Justinbart Member Posts: 3259 From: Flint, MI Registered: Sep 2009
|
| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:
It looks like the purpose of the raised portion of the throwout bearing spacer is so only it makes contact with the fingers. If it is tall enough, the fingers should not make contact with the larger diameter of the main throw out bearing spacer. |
|
Correct. It would have to move in over 3/4" before it would contact the outer edge, which is impossible. ------------------ Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5 10.91@133.1
|
04:48 AM
|
|
LFiero67 Member Posts: 882 From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jun 2002
|
Have you put an aftermarket balanced on to try and eliminate the flywheel cracking? ------------------ 10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60' Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.
Old M90 XP Cam time - 11.425 @115.60 1.543 60'
|
06:42 PM
|
|