+1. Bad computer. If you could get a known good one to swap in temporarily that would be really easy to confirm ir eliminate that.
Talking to a tech at Delphi which used to be right down the street from me. He said the vast majority of computers they received to go thru and send out as fixed/refurbished to retailers were good. Very few were ever bad. Not that yours can not be bad. Just that it is rare.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I had the same problem with my 84 SE. No joke, right down to the same symptoms your Fiero has. It took me 3 months of dying at random times and getting the car towed home or to an auto shop. But everytime I got it to a shop it would fire up.
Finally the auto shop was a able to get the car when it wouldnt start, They found that my starter contacts inside the starter didnt always make contact and that why it would die some times and not others. I replace the starter and have never had this issue again.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I just unplugged the coil wire, and put a screwdriver in it. It was kinda hard to see while turning the ignition but I don't think there was any spark
it's been a little over a half hour, and it still just will not start. Looks like I may have to call Triple A this time.
Would a coil be a good choice @ $35 for my next "fix"?
Your tach isn't moving? It's the ICM. If it was definitely the coil, the tach would still move. The video you just posted looks exactly like a bad ICM.
Originally posted by Rodney: Talking to a tech at Delphi which used to be right down the street from me. He said the vast majority of computers they received to go thru and send out as fixed/refurbished to retailers were good. Very few were ever bad. Not that yours can not be bad. Just that it is rare.
Indeed. The ECM is pretty well protected from electrical trauma that would cause it to go bad. It's very rare that they do. But on a 30 year old car, it is slightly more possible than it would have been 30 years ago.
Originally posted by Rodney: Talking to a tech at Delphi which used to be right down the street from me. He said the vast majority of computers they received to go thru and send out as fixed/refurbished to retailers were good. Very few were ever bad. Not that yours can not be bad. Just that it is rare.
Not sure what ya are referring to, as I did not replace the computer. Someone just mentioned that that could be the problem.
quote
Originally posted by FieroJosh1993: I had the same problem with my 84 SE. ..............They found that my starter contacts inside the starter didnt always make contact and that why it would die some times and not others. I replace the starter and have never had this issue again. Hope this helps
I am totally lost here.... how can bad contacts in a starter cause the car to quit running.... to not start the car yea, but cause it to stop running while driving down the road at 45 MPH?
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Originally posted by dobey: Your tach isn't moving? It's the ICM. If it was definitely the coil, the tach would still move. The video you just posted looks exactly like a bad ICM.
Not sure what you mean, in the video you can clearly see the tach go from below 0RPM and jump to 0RPM when I turn the key on. Is it supposed to jump when the car is being cranked as well? I just replaced the ICM with a new one a few hours ago. It would be MY luck that I would get the one bad ICM out of the bunch.... Can something else that is bad, cause the ICM to blow?
It would kind of make sense that it is a bad (BRAND NEW) ICM, as before I replaced it, it would always start after cooling down. I just tried a few minutes ago, and it will not start 4 hours later.
Anyhow.... here is how my night ended up, just when it seemed like it was fixed!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-04-2014).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Not sure what you mean, in the video you can clearly see the tach go from below 0RPM and jump to 0RPM when I turn the key on. Is it supposed to jump when the car is being cranked as well? I just replaced the ICM with a new one a few hours ago. It would be MY luck that I would get the one bad ICM out of the bunch.... Can something else that is bad, cause the ICM to blow?
It would kind of make sense that it is a bad (BRAND NEW) ICM, as before I replaced it, it would always start after cooling down. I just tried a few minutes ago, and it will not start 4 hours later.
Yes. The tach may rest below 0 when the ignition is off, and reset to 0 when it is on. When cranking, the tach should move higher than 0 (as the engine is rotating). Put the old one back in and see if it starts up.
I suppose if something is causing a surge of electricity to the ICM, it could cause it to go bad, but I'm not sure what would cause it. If it's an original coil, it might not be a bad idea to replace it, at this point, but they rarely go bad.
Are you missing any of the heat shields in the area of the coil/distributor? The pic you posted earlier of the ICM is too zoomed in to tell for sure. But missing shielding could be causing excess heat in the distributor area, which could cause the ICM to overheat and go bad.
Is this an engine/car that started and ran good regularly before or where there issues?
I don't know... Seriously Jason... I don't LOL! I have been working on the car on and off for the past 3-4 years and it has been driven thus far very little, around the block a couple times, and to the paint shop and back...twice LOL. I just got to the point that it is finishing up, and ready to see full time daily driver usage.
I drove 350 miles to get this crate engine with 1,000 miles on it. While it was sitting and waiting to go in the car, I put just about everything new on it. Cap, wires, rotor, metal impeller water pump, starter, alternator, MAF sensor, O2 Sensor, TPS, Module, new hoses and vacuum lines, new valve cover gaskets, Crankshaft seal, output shaft seal, new belts, new ground / +Positive cables / straps, temperature sender, Every relay (headlight, fan fuel, ect) and on and on...
Looking back the ICM was an AC Delco purchased from Rock Auto on 09-28-11 and probably has like 50 miles on it. I replaced it with the new one yesterday. I will head to the part store this afternoon to swap this ICM for a new one and see what happens.
I think all the heat shields are in place, but I will double check. I did find that the blower fan is kicking on with the radiator fan when it comes up to temperature. Wouldn't it be wise to have that blower come on with the ignition? I mean the exhaust right next to it is just as hot a couple minutes after starting the car, as when the coolant comes up to temperature......
I put just about everything new on it. Cap, wires, rotor, metal impeller water pump, starter, alternator, MAF sensor, O2 Sensor, TPS, Module, new hoses and vacuum lines, new valve cover gaskets, Crankshaft seal, output shaft seal, new belts, new ground / +Positive cables / straps, temperature sender, Every relay (headlight, fan fuel, ect) and on and on...
I don't see a pickup coil listed there. It's usually a good idea to replace it whenever the ICM is replaced. I didn't mention this earlier as you seemed reluctant to pull the distributor.
Originally posted by dobey: Are you missing any of the heat shields in the area of the coil/distributor? The pic you posted earlier of the ICM is too zoomed in to tell for sure. But missing shielding could be causing excess heat in the distributor area, which could cause the ICM to overheat and go bad.
The heat shields are in place:
Please ignore the horrible looking engine bay, there is over spray, primer and shop dust on EVERYTHING from MAACO. I also have a new candy apple blue powder coated engraved plenum and matching valve covers to install. I also see that I split a plug wire boot.....
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Originally posted by Patrick:
I don't see a pickup coil listed there. It's usually a good idea to replace it whenever the ICM is replaced. I didn't mention this earlier as you seemed reluctant to pull the distributor.
Now ya tell me! After I just put it all back together...... [EDIT] And it's only a $9 part.... LOL Will do it in the next could days when the ICM goes again LOL!
First, the car would not start this morning..... I pulled the ICM, and got a replacement at the part store. I put it in, buttoned everything back up, and just the every slightest tap of the key, the car started right up and idled beautifully.
Now the dilemma:
a) The car is good to go, as I thought it was yesterday as well, and I worry about getting stuck somewhere the first time I take the car out.
b) It was one the "one in a hundred" bad modules right off the shelf, and everything is good to go (But still worry about breaking down for a while)
c) something is causing them to blow from a signal / voltage overload or something, and again, worry about getting stuck somewhere the first time I take the car out.
This so sux, still wondering at any point and time, in any lane, at any intersection the car can just die again. I have gotten lucky the past 2 times, and was in a parking lot, or able to coast into a gas station. There are no "country" roads that I can go drive around on and test things out. Soon as I pull out of my development, I am on a 6 lane road. As for a heat soak, I did that 4-5 times yesterday, and it passed with flying colors, so I really can't trust that again.....
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-05-2014).]
A few months ago I had the exact same thing going on with my 88 GT. I must of replaced my ICM's like 4 times in 3 days. Autozone must of loved me then. Anyway one of the times I was dead on the side of the road I wiggled my wires around and guess what the dang thing started. Someone else earlier in the post said to get a new pig tail that goes from the Coil to the cap. They are only 27 bucks or so and well worth the money. Something that I did notice, after all of the ICM's going out on me my MTD new coil went south on me and I had to replace it. So I am telling ya its the wires, After all of the swapping the ICM's I went back and tried the 4 ICM's that were "bad" and guess what, they all worked. When you replace the ICM it moves the wires around and makes a connection again.
Also I would replace my plug wire, that one that is split I would not trust it further then I could throw my mother-in-law.
E
[This message has been edited by Steelsoul (edited 09-05-2014).]
Originally posted by 2.5: There is no coil side heat shield in that pic. You can see it here between the coil land EGR
Ahhhh... I was looking at the heat shield below the coil, between it and the manifold. I will have to dig around and see if that here somewhere..... As for the ICM, I was mistaken, I thought the one I got a couple years back, when I was building the engine was an AC Delco. I just took the car for about a 10 mile drive, nervously staying in the right lane, and looking a block ahead at all times for places to pull into if the engine died. It reminded me of flight school, the instructors always taught you to always scan and be on the lookout at all times for places to land if the engine cut out.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-05-2014).]
A few months ago I had the exact same thing going on with my 88 GT. I must of replaced my ICM's like 4 times in 3 days. Autozone must of loved me then. Anyway one of the times I was dead on the side of the road I wiggled my wires around and guess what the dang thing started. Someone else earlier in the post said to get a new pig tail that goes from the Coil to the cap. They are only 27 bucks or so and well worth the money. Something that I did notice, after all of the ICM's going out on me my MTD new coil went south on me and I had to replace it. So I am telling ya its the wires, After all of the swapping the ICM's I went back and tried the 4 ICM's that were "bad" and guess what, they all worked. When you replace the ICM it moves the wires around and makes a connection again.
Also I would replace my plug wire, that one that is split I would not trust it further then I could throw my mother-in-law.
E
You posted at the same time I was replying with my last post..... After reading about that above, when the car would not start last night, I wiggled all of the wires around the ICM and the module numerous times and then attempted to start it. I even had the tow truck driver crank it while I wiggled the wires and tapped on the distributor cap with a heavy handled screwdriver. I also checked the pig tail, and all the connections, and they are in really good shape actually. No oxidization on the wiring, or inside the plugs that I could see. I agree, I should go ahead and replace it, but I don't think that is the root of the problem this time around. Again, ANYTHING is possible, and I appreciate the suggestion, it just doesn't seem to be that from testing here.
As for the plug wire, they are high end wires, and have probably less than 2 hours run time on them. They were the ones that you get the wire and all parts separately and you crimp and make them to your exact custom lengths and such. I have some pieces left over, (comes as an 8 Cylinder kit) and will just cut that split boot off, and put another one on.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-05-2014).]
When it didnt start, did you try putting the other module in. That would have isolated your problem right away if it was the module or not. Ive had them fail...worst was Delco-Remy...many times and just swapped it. Ive had a coil go out too, but they dont seem to just kill the car right away. I was able to drive it 30 miles back home with it missing and sputtering. I changed to an Accell aftermarket coil and had no further coil problem.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-05-2014).]
When it didnt start, did you try putting the other module in.
No, I thought about it, but It wouldn't helped diagnose anything. With that module in the car, I would get stranded, but eventually the car would start again some time later. If I put it in, there was a good chance the car would just start right back up, no problem, but be back to where I was in the first place.
That's why I just decided to go for another new replacement module, and hope for the best. As for the plugs, they are in great shape, and the rubber seals are still actually nice and soft and not brittle.
Right now, I am going to head out west about 5 miles to try to get away from the insane traffic here, and go for a decent drive, and see how it does. I only have one remaining tow with AAA till I renew in March I have the old module as a backup I am taking with me.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-05-2014).]
Have you checked your vacuum lines? A cracked one or two will cause all kinds of havoc that is very difficult to pinpoint.
General vacuum leak won't cause misfire or stuttering though. Just high idle. All a vacuum leak means is that extra air is being drawn into the intake. It would still be getting fuel and spark, and would still start and run.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Ahhhh... I was looking at the heat shield below the coil, between it and the manifold. I will have to dig around and see if that here somewhere..... As for the ICM, I was mistaken, I thought the one I got a couple years back, when I was building the engine was an AC Delco. I just took the car for about a 10 mile drive, nervously staying in the right lane, and looking a block ahead at all times for places to pull into if the engine died. It reminded me of flight school, the instructors always taught you to always scan and be on the lookout at all times for places to land if the engine cut out.
What 2.5 said. That heat shield is missing, so you may be getting excess heat to the distributor and coil.
Let me know if you need anything. I've got almost the whole top end pulled off the 2.8 in my 87 GT, as I've been pulling pieces off when I've had time, since the engine is dead (blown head gasket and I think it's seized up now), and I've been (not) working on the LS4 swap for 4 years. I had a few of the Fiero Store parts on there, as I fixed things over the years. I could let some stuff go for cheap. But I won't be able to ship anything out for a few days, since the post office here is closed on Saturdays now.
Mine did the same two weeks ago - driving to a cars and coffee it 'missed hard' but kept running. On the way home it would just cut out and I would have to coast off the side of the road and after a short while it would re-fire and run. I of course would pop the hatch and wiggle wires tap on the distributor etc... After the third or fourth time I took a screwdriver and pushed the wire from the distributor to the ICM firmly back into it's socket --- problem solved car has not missed a beat since. Replacement pigtails and plugs are available thru Rock Auto - to find them look up ICM put it in your bucket and it will link you to 'other items you may need'. I've ordered all new pigtails and will be building a remote coil / ICM mount as per Patricks conversion listed elsewhere in the Forum. Oh by the way - people are dicks / they love to blow the horn at you when they think your 'Ferrari' is broke down on the side of the road. Mines a 308 kit.
Well, I went for a 15 mile drive out west, and stopped for about 20 minutes. When I got back in the car, it fired right back up and I drove home. All the way home I couldn't beleive that the new module I bought went bad, but now that I put the 2nd one in in less than 24 hours all is well.....
HOLD IT RIGHT THERE......
I just went out to head up to Sonic to get some ice cream, and the car will not start. It has been sitting since I got back this afternoon for something like 4 hours, so it is definately cooled down. I think it's time to give the pick up coil a swap as the next course of action....
THis is so damn frustrating! ! ! ! ! ! ! )* &($*Y&F)*YU08ei9a0r3!!!!!!!!
I just ordered a pick up coil from Amazon, I try to shop there when I can, as I get free 2 day shipping with Prime. It amazes me the stuff you can actually get on there, such as this pick-up coil for example.
ALso, I just scoured Rock Auto. Do you have to buy the plugs and make your own pig tails or something?
I just looked at all 3 of these categories, and they are all just plugs with bare wires on the other end. I tried adding the module to the cart as mentioned above, there are no further suggestions when I view the cart, or start to place the order.
Ignition Coil Connector
Ignition Control Module Connector
Pigtail
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-05-2014).]
I had a chevy Celebrity with the 2.8 and would randomly shut off, and after a while it would restart. Replaced ecm, icm, rotor, dist etc. it ended up being the vehicle side wire harness that plugs into the icm or coil. It looked fine, but wires inside were breaking and corroded. Start your car and pull, push, wiggle any wires that go to icm and coils. I had to splice on new wire and the problem went away.
I had a chevy Celebrity with the 2.8 and would randomly shut off, and after a while it would restart. Replaced ecm, icm, rotor, dist etc. it ended up being the vehicle side wire harness that plugs into the icm or coil. It looked fine, but wires inside were breaking and corroded. Start your car and pull, push, wiggle any wires that go to icm and coils. I had to splice on new wire and the problem went away.
These problems always seem to get resolved like that.
The connector can be bought as one piece from the fierostore.com.
From reading this post, I suspect that the problem lies in the wiring and/or interconnects in the ignition system. I see three items that could be a possible root cause here: 1) The ICM to coil cable linked above. 2) The pickup coil on the distributor 3) The four wire pigtail from the engine harness (ECM) to the ICM.
If you replace item 1 from the list above, that is a relatively inexpensive and easy swap to see if that solves the problem.
Number 2 is something that if you wanted to replace, I would simply swap out the entire distributor with a Cardone reman unit. They have a newer design pickup coil on them. This repair has higher cost and more labor involved, but might solve the problem.
Number three could be fixed, but would require a costly specialty tool to do right. If it came down to this, I would cut the connector off the pigtail right at the connector, and then install a new weatherpack connector and crimp new terminals on the ends of the cut wires. To do this requires a special crimping tool that is not cheap ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LNG-44905/ ). This would put a new connector on the engine harness with new terminals to connect to the ICM.
EDIT: let me add to this that you could also buy a pre-made pigtail for this and splice it in. These are available from the Fiero store, and you could probably also get them from Napa or Rock Auto ( http://www.fierostore.com/P...px?s=65503&d=248&p=1 ). I would cut off the old connector and install a new connector myself, but I do have the tools, experience, and I would choose to do this rather than splice in a ready made connector. But that's just me.
[This message has been edited by lateFormula (edited 09-06-2014).]
Try doing the test in the dark. After you turn off the car open the trunk and see if the base of your distributor is glowing red hot. I had a similar problem and it turned out I was cooking the ICMS because the distributor shaft was bent.
there are alot of great comments here about what to do & check. Great Job Guys!! but one thing you gotta do with any stuck car is:
1 -check for fuel & fuel pressure. Use the Shrader Valve at the intake. Smell the exhaust for unburned fuel. Just because the fuel pump goes on for 2 sec doesnt guarentee fuel pressure.
2 -check for spark. At the cylinder not just the coil. then check the coil. The Tach has to jump as well. Its either yes or no!
3 -make sure everything under the hood thats suposed to be grounded has a good clean ground.
imo coils should be replaced every 2-4 yrs. depending on the quality of parts + millage.
**Thats a really nice ride you have! I hope you fix it real soon!**
[This message has been edited by Alex.07.86GT (edited 10-07-2014).]
Originally posted by lateFormula: If you replace item 1 from the list above, that is a relatively inexpensive and easy swap to see if that solves the problem.
Some good advice. I have ordered a coil pack already, so the replacement distributor will have to way for now.
I want to do #1 on your list, but can not find that pig tail. As I mentioned above, I found the plugs, but can it be purchased with the connectors on each end? The last thing I want is a bunch of this in the engine compartment! LOL
As for #3, I will try the first 2, and see if I need to keep on going.
Try doing the test in the dark. After you turn off the car open the trunk and see if the base of your distributor is glowing red hot. I had a similar problem and it turned out I was cooking the ICMS because the distributor shaft was bent.
It is a VERY remote possibility, but I will use my thermal thingy for my multimeter (when I get it running again) and see of there is a hot spot below the distributor.
quote
Originally posted by Alex.07.86GT:
there are alot of great comments here about what to do & check. Great Job Guys!! but one thing you gotta do with any stuck car is:
1 -check for fuel & fuel pressure. Use the Shrader Valve at the intake. Smell the exhaust for unburned fuel. Just because the fuel pump goes on for 2 sec doesnt guarentee fuel pressure.
2 -check for spark. At the cylinder not just the coil. then check the coil. The Tach has to jump as well. Its either yes or no!
3 -make sure everything under the hood thats suposed to be grounded has a good clean ground.
imo coils should be replaced every 1-2 yrs. FPR need to be changed 2-3 yrs. but if you have AAA -as needed i guess. lol
**Thats a really nice ride you have! I hope you fix it real soon!**
1) Pressing the shrader valve sprays fuel under pressure 2) as mentioned above, there is no spark off the coil 3) I have checked, and all grounds appear to be good.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I want to do #1 on your list, but can not find that pig tail. As I mentioned above, I found the plugs, but can it be purchased with the connectors on each end? The last thing I want is a bunch of this in the engine compartment!
Ok, I do not think I have ever been SO frustrated and PI$#ED off in my life! I had to walk away before I put a sledge hammer through the car!
I started yesterday with the pigtail between the module and the coil.... it looked to be in good shape. For the hell of it, I tried to start the car first, which would not start multiple times in the past couple days. It started right up! I immediately turned it off, and stood there scratching my head.... I tried again, and it would not start. Ok, continue on with the pigtail I though. I took it off, and its in what appears to be good shape.
I peeled the wire loom and heat shielding off and examined it closely, and it is good by appearance so far:
I grabbed my tester, and got a good contact on each end.....and no matter how I wiggled the wires on the plugs, with both connectors, and then on both wires, the continuity never broke, and was steady, never so much as flickering once (The tone the tester makes is easy to tell if there is even the slightest break in continuity).
I cleaned the plugs with contact cleaner, then sanded with fine sandpaper, and put some heat tape and the wire loom back on.
I turned the key, nothing..... And now the Tach was not moving when I cranked the car, I tried again, and this time the tach moved, and the car did not start. I tried again and the tach was NOT moving, but this time the car started! WTF! ! ! ! ! ! !
All of this with out moving a SINGLE wire in the back of the car, so I am 99% sure the "Loose connection" is out of the question at this point.
So here is a new set of diagnosis criteria:
- What can cause the car to just die at 45 MPH - What can cause the car not to start randomly, and other times start with the slightest tap of the key - How, when cranking the car, the tachometer does NOT move, yet the car starts - How can the car start, turn it off, and it will not restart. - how can the car not start (when cold), wait a couple minutes, and it will start with the slightest tap of the key, turn it off, and it will not restart
So far: Module replaced twice, Fuel pump and pressure are fine, new rotor, cap, high end wires, new plugs gaped properly, Coil <-> ICM cable appears and tests good. when the car will not start, there is no spark on the coil wire.
So far suggested in this thread: Coil, coil pick-up, module, bad plug on ICM <-> Coil, bent distributor shaft, ECM, heat shields, split spark plug boot, and oddly enough, Vacuum leak, or a bad starter.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-07-2014).]
This sounds a lot like what is happening tome in my thread "Car will not stay running (Very Very Strange)". Did you ever take spark plug #1 out and try to start it. Just curious because mine is behaving very similar to yours at least it did until it just wouldn't work at all one day. When I take out plug number 1, the actual plug not just disconnecting the wire it will start right up and run. Put the plug back it and it wont work again. I am curious to know if it is the same issue that I am having.
Is the distributor original? Things look fairly oxidized under your distributor cap. Before I swapped my V6 for a V8 I had the mystery stall also. Tried everything electrical, ignition module, and all grounds but still no luck. Finally as a last resort I went to replace the distributor pick-up so I pulled the distributor from the car. I was surprised to see the dist bearings were worn enough that the inner and outer pick-up tangs could make contact with one another intermittently and it was throwing off the pulse signal to the ECM. If you have an original distributor this is definitely worth looking into, it doesn't cost anything to check and it's easy to test for because it's a mechanical failure rather than intangible electrical issue. An important note: It will be very hard to recognize excessive dist bearing play while its still in the engine due to the engagement with the cam gear. You should mark the housing and rotor position then pull it in order to find out for sure.
I think the rotor is original, but to what engine or mileage, I have no clue. This was a crate engine that the PO pulled parts off of, I assume his old engine to put on the crate motor. I replaced TONS of stuff before it went into my car, but not the distributor. Just the cap, rotor, module and wires.
I have a pick-up coil coming on Tuesday, so I will probably pull it apart to install next weekend.
Saying all of this, yes, it is possible it is a bad bearing, but I also think that the probability of this being the problem is pretty remote.
New questions:
- Would a coil going bad, cause issues like this? - Could a bad steering column ignition switch be the problem in some way?
John, I did not see it anywhere in this post, but have you jumpered terminals A and B in the ALDL connector and checked for codes?
The only other suggestion I could offer is to check continuity on terminal A on the 4 terminal connector on the ICM. That should be a black and red wire and is a ground path through the ECM. In my experience electrical gremlins are almost always the result of faulty grounds.
I have the old module as a backup I am taking with me.
