I had the same problem years ago with my 84. Threw parts at it for a couple of months, gave up and put it in the shop. The shop tried an ECM swap, and a new distributor. which failed to fix it. Try disconnecting the tach wire from the coil and see what happens. Believe it or not this cured my problem. It would only take a few minutes to give it a shot. I pit an aftermarket tach on mine and never had the problem again. Good luck.
New problem: Now, when I turn the key on, I can not hear the fuel pump. I crank and the tach fluxuates around 400 RPM or so. I pressed the shared valve to the right of the plenum, and sure enough no fuel pressure. WTF! This is like 4 totally unrelated things all piling on top of each other (It started here), just to confuse the hell out of a diagnosis! ! ! ! !
Again, I have never been so discouraged and f'n p'd off in my entire life at a car! I mean COME ON! When a module blows, you replace it..... NO! Not hereI I replace 2 and sometimes the tach blips when cranked, crank again and it doesn't.... THen of all fracking things the tach is not moving while cranking, and the car starts! Really! ! ! !ol;uhifesy0ht435jh0 pwgsl[]his 100% random, no pattern with 20 different possible causes crap.... I am just so over it! ! ! ! ! ! \ \
Sounds like your car has become sentient and just hates you. :P
The machines are rising against us. I had the soda machine try to attack me at Subway too. Shot ice out sideways, right at me, instead of into the cup.
Do you have the oil pressure gauge in your car? Do you have good pressure? Did the fuel pump fuse blow? I'm wondering if you don't have a bad ground somewhere, now.
Yes, I have an oil pressure gauge. It always is just past center when running, and even gets up to the middle while cranking.
I have calmed down slightly since my last post...... I wish I would have cataloged all of the things that this car fought me tooth an nail on. Even the very simplest things, turned into HUGE events at times. Not one single thing has gone as you would have expected.
Just to replace the scratched glass in the passenger door: Glass guy was out here 3 separate times, bolts frozen, the white rollers did not want to come off or go back in, had to replace the regulator, and almost lost a thumb in the spring loaded regulator in the process, door guy broke actually broke the glass with his rivet gun on his next trip out, almost two weeks to get a replacement, then was out one more time and didn't finish. The next time, he got everything back together, and you had to pulI the window up to close it! (With a NEW window motor, and NEW regulator nice and greased up. I eventually had to drive it to the glass shop and have them finish it there. For any other person, or Fiero, would be "Replaced passenger door glass". DONE
Well, your avatar is your Fiero on a flatbed, so maybe it's just karma.
I know how you feel though. My car has quickly turned into being in need of a full restoration, thanks to mice getting in the HVAC as it's sat in my garage. My del Sol has its share of needs, and my truck likes to be fidgety as well. One of the tail lights will randomly stop wanting to have the turn signal/brake light work, and it will randomly start working again, while driving down the road, or when I pull it out to try and find the problem.
Hopefully you'll be able to isolate your issues soon, and start actually enjoying your car.
…..Try disconnecting the tach wire from the coil and see what happens. Believe it or not this cured my problem. It would only take a few minutes to give it a shot…..
I would give this a try, your dash did get rained on. Other than that the only thing I know to do is shotgun it, check grounds, replacing the distributor, coil, wiring from another car and possibly the ecm.
Ok, I do not think I have ever been SO frustrated and PI$#ED off in my life! I had to walk away before I put a sledge hammer through the car!
I started yesterday with the pigtail between the module and the coil.... it looked to be in good shape. For the hell of it, I tried to start the car first, which would not start multiple times in the past couple days. It started right up! I immediately turned it off, and stood there scratching my head.... I tried again, and it would not start. Ok, continue on with the pigtail I though. I took it off, and its in what appears to be good shape.
I peeled the wire loom and heat shielding off and examined it closely, and it is good by appearance so far:
I grabbed my tester, and got a good contact on each end.....and no matter how I wiggled the wires on the plugs, with both connectors, and then on both wires, the continuity never broke, and was steady, never so much as flickering once (The tone the tester makes is easy to tell if there is even the slightest break in continuity).
I cleaned the plugs with contact cleaner, then sanded with fine sandpaper, and put some heat tape and the wire loom back on.
I turned the key, nothing..... And now the Tach was not moving when I cranked the car, I tried again, and this time the tach moved, and the car did not start. I tried again and the tach was NOT moving, but this time the car started! WTF! ! ! ! ! ! !
All of this with out moving a SINGLE wire in the back of the car, so I am 99% sure the "Loose connection" is out of the question at this point.
So here is a new set of diagnosis criteria:
- What can cause the car to just die at 45 MPH - What can cause the car not to start randomly, and other times start with the slightest tap of the key - How, when cranking the car, the tachometer does NOT move, yet the car starts - How can the car start, turn it off, and it will not restart. - how can the car not start (when cold), wait a couple minutes, and it will start with the slightest tap of the key, turn it off, and it will not restart
So far: Module replaced twice, Fuel pump and pressure are fine, new rotor, cap, high end wires, new plugs gaped properly, Coil <-> ICM cable appears and tests good. when the car will not start, there is no spark on the coil wire.
So far suggested in this thread: Coil, coil pick-up, module, bad plug on ICM <-> Coil, bent distributor shaft, ECM, heat shields, split spark plug boot, and oddly enough, Vacuum leak, or a bad starter.
For when you have no spark ->check out this video for a no spark condition. -check for voltage & signal at the coil. no spark
if you can check for voltage drop on the pigtail or other connections before replacing them. I think 0.2 voltage or less voltage drop is what you want.
No fuel pressure? Was the oil pressure switch changed yet? FP relay?
I would give this a try, your dash did get rained on. Other than that the only thing I know to do is shotgun it, check grounds, replacing the distributor, coil, wiring from another car and possibly the ecm.
I didn't realize it got left out in the rain with no glass in it until now. Rain with no sunroof would also give more weight to the bad ECM idea, if it got wet as well.
The more I dig into trying to figure this problem out, the more it gets so twisted it is impossible to diagnose.......
Since the last posting where the fuel pump is not running I have diagnosed a bit further:
I used a test light on my cig lighter +12 wire, and I determined that I do have power. Surprise Surprise, something works! ! ! ! So, I jumpered 12v power to what I thought was terminal "G" on the ALDL port. The bottom row, closest on the passenger side. I could hear that the fuel pump was not engaging when I applied power. No sound, no drop on the voltage gauge. Now ticked off again, as this was a brand new fuel pump, and I have dropped the tank 4 times already diagnosing the car dying, the gas gauge not working, and leaking fuel.
It's a lot more work to drop the tank again, and replace the fuel pump, but at least I have discovered my problem! It seems that all along it has been bad / intermittent fuel pump, and at least I now know what to fix to have the car finally running!
On a crazy whim, and just before I resorted to having to drop the FULL tank yet again, I took my test light to the Cig lighter +12 and now there was no power.... WTF? It worked a few minutes ago! Now, totally stumped, I checked the fuse, and sure enough it was blown. Now, there must be a short or pinched wire to the fuel pump somewhere, or the little electric motor is frozen / locked up somehow causing a direct short, and blowing the fuse. Looks I still have to drop the tank.
As I start to pull the wires from the ALDL, and grab the diagram I printed out:
I notice the the angle that I am in now, there seems to be a row of more pins on the BOTTOM and not on the TOP.... Hmmmmm. Well it seems that somewhere down the line, the ALDL connector was installed upside down, and I had just made a direct +12v to ground, and blowing the fuse. I then jumper the CORRECT pin "G" and sure enough the fuel pump runs, I can hear it, and the voltage gauge dips slightly when I connect the wire.
So, back to square one, with just a new problem to fix. A bad fuel relay will NOT cause the car not to start, as I have cranked enough to raise the oil pressure and over ride it. Also, a bad fuel pump relay will not cause the car to die while driving. Something to note: I replaced the fuel pump relay while restoring the car, and it probably has less than 50 miles of use on it.
So, now to replace the fuel pump relay, and be exactly in the same spot I am in, trying to figure out the root of the problem. Just a wasted bunch of time, and I am no closer to solving what is happening.
New question: Is there something that could cause all of the original symptoms, and cause a fuel pump relay to blow? Or again, just another coincidence to throw me off, (Like the first one, replacing the ICM and the car was perfect for 24 miles, and then not restart for days) WTF.... this is friggin impossible!
Latest info: Probably not a wire of plug from the ICM to the coil of any of the other plugs to / from the ICM: Car randomly starts and does not start when touching nothing at all. When It refused to start for the past 3-4 days, I replaced the module again with a new one, nothing, and wiggling every plug and wire, nothing.
Diagnosed a bad fuel pump relay, and was able to jumper and start the car today. However, that would not cause the car to die while driving, and would not prevent it from starting when the oil pressure came up. What ever the problem is, there is a 99% chance it is still there waiting to strand me somewhere again.
I have replaced the ICM 3 times in around 30 miles of driving. (original before problem, and 2 brand new ones) I would tend to think that is it not a module problem.
Anyhow, I am on the way to the part store to get a new Fuel Pump Relay. (Second one in around 50 miles of driving)
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-12-2014).]
Fuel pump is an AC Delco purchased 04-14-2012. It has around 56 miles on it. While the tank was out, it was thoroughly cleaned. I replaced the sending unit with the new more modern one from The Fiero Store, and replaced all fuel lines in the tank with new Fuel rated rubber hoses. The last time the tank was dropped, and all the rubber lines were replaced, I also replaced the fuel filter. I had a mechanic friend help me when dropping the tank all 4 times.
Total cost of parts and labor for the fuel tank alone: around $450
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I notice the the angle that I am in now, there seems to be a row of more pins on the BOTTOM and not on the TOP.... Hmmmmm. Well it seems that somewhere down the line, the ALDL connector was installed upside down, and I had just made a direct +12v to ground, and blowing the fuse. I then jumper the CORRECT pin "G" and sure enough the fuel pump runs, I can hear it, and the voltage gauge dips slightly when I connect the wire.
I'm not sure that's "upside down" exactly. Note that the diagram doesn't actually show orientation inside the console itself. It does show the tabs on the A-G pinout diagram though, and you need to pay attention to where those tabs are when looking at the ALDL connector, to get proper orientation. In most cars, those are at the "top" because they are under the dash. I can't go compare to my cars at the moment, but I think "upside down" is correct in the Fiero. Sit in the drivers seat and lean forward to look down at the connector. Up is down and down is up.
Originally posted by dobey: I'm not sure that's "upside down" exactly. Note that the diagram doesn't actually show orientation inside the console itself.
I did some other research when I was looking to test it, and came across this thread where it says:
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Jumper the fuel pump pin on the ALDL plug (pin G to 12v - bottom left most pin when looking at it) - if the pump turns on, possibly a bad relay, if it doesn't bad pump.
A few posts later someone confirms the passenger side, bottom row.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-12-2014).]
I was able to diagnose the fuel pump already. I went to the part store, and got a $16 relay and installed it. The car is still starting right back up.... for now at least!
As for testing it: A week or so back, I started and ran the car up to temperature, and turned it off and it easily restarted. I let the car cool completely down, and it again started no problem. I did this 4 to 5 times and all was well. It was the next time that I took the car out that it died and I had it towed home. The car would not start for days.....
@dobey: Strange indeed.... wonder if at the factory they were not strict on how they were installed or something....
What year is your car? Somehow I thought you said it was an '88. The '88 (or cars with '88 senders installed) doesn't have the oil pressure sender fail-safe circuit. If the fuel pump relay (or power to it) is intermittent there is no backup.
Man, with this mechanical problem, the fiasco with Maaco, I just can't seem to cut a break! I just took the car through the neighborhood, not wanting to stray too far from the house with it. I start hearing this clicking noise from the front right.....
The car has brand new 215/50R17's with probably 50 miles on them. That's another $150 down the tubes........
I had a very similar situation happen like this. Drove me nuts. Hit a bump and car dies, get towed home to find it starts back up. Found an archived topic about dead radio syndrome. Replaced the fusable links in the harness like it suggested and everything has been working fine since.
------------------ With A Cutting Torch and Welder ANYTHING is Possible!! '87 GT Black Betty Plastidip! '88 GT Brick Red Plastidip! '87 GT Burgundy
Noticing that this post is popular and people are actually being helpful on here, I guess I should request someone either PM me or respond on HERE, I'm in desperate need of help, I've put almost 300 hours into figuring this out to no avail. I have a similar issue to this, however it's certainly the car starving of fuel. It will run and drive (idles at 2k because of vacuum leak) and after about 5 minutes of driving, when I come to a stop it will die, and because I have a bad alternator, it won't crank without a jump, so I get my buddy to jump me and it won't get fuel, like the fuel pump doesn't kick back on after it dies. let it sit for a few days and it will get fuel again. I'm begging for help at this point, because if I don't find out what's wrong with it, I'm going to have to take it to someone to have it looked at, and we all know how bad of a kick in the pride that is.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: The car has brand new 215/50R17's with probably 50 miles on them. That's another $150 down the tubes........
Was the tire flat? How long was the screw actually? I've picked up a few tiny things over the years that never even made it through the treads and into the tire. I'd just plug it and save your money for a while, if there's actually a leak as a result of that.
Tire plugs, quick, cheap, and work great. Had one in me wife's car and it was still holding 10yrs later when I sold the car. Get the solid rubber plugs, not the coated rope. I've used them for years at work in rough terrain equipment.
John, I can feel your pain. My son had put a ton of money into his car fixing it. Head, alt, break overhaul, etc. But the thing was an electrical nightmare. I've been helping, wrenching, troubleshooting. As soon as we got everything cleared up the transmission went out. He lost patience. I told him we could swap one for cheap, but his mom found a good car where she lives in Michigan for a good deal. An 06 Dodge Charger. He told me last Thursday about calling the pull-apart to come get it. Again I said have patience. Yesterday the tow truck came and got it. He now HATES Fieros. I would have gave him the money to keep it since it was in my name anyway, but it was his call. I think he was so frustrated that he wanted the thing destroyed.
Was the tire flat? How long was the screw actually? I've picked up a few tiny things over the years that never even made it through the treads and into the tire. I'd just plug it and save your money for a while, if there's actually a leak as a result of that.
It is holding air for now, as the screw is still plugging the hole. By looking at the head of the screw, I would guess that it HAS to be at least 2 inches long. Yea, I will probably plug it for now, and worry about it when everything else is cleared up.
As for getting frustrated, and wanting to just have it towed away, I have been there! I have FAR too much money and time invested to go through with something like that right now though LOL.
I still am no closer to solving it. Next step is going to try to change the ECM and see what happens. Waiting now to hear back on one that someone is trying to send me to swap in.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: It is holding air for now, as the screw is still plugging the hole. By looking at the head of the screw, I would guess that it HAS to be at least 2 inches long. Yea, I will probably plug it for now, and worry about it when everything else is cleared up.
Eh. Looks like the same size head on about a thousand screws I have laying here, that are only about 1/8" long at most. I'd make sure there's actually damage before jumping to write the tire off.
Got stranded again last night.... err this morning actually, 4am. I drove the car all over the place for the past week thinking that in replacing all the things that I have, it was finally fixed. I drove to the beach yesterday, took a nice long leisurely drive... about 40 miles. I came home, and went back out to meet some friends for a couple drinks. On the way home, it just died doing 45mph about 15 miles from my house. I let it sit for an hour, and kept trying to start it, nothing.... I replaced the ICM, still nothing. I wound up using my last AAA tow for the year. No if... errr... WHEN this happens the next time, and every time there after will be around $250 a pop. It absolutely makes me not want to get in that car and go ANYWHERE with it.
I mean seriously, how would you like to have a $250 tow bill just hanging over your head, and will have to pay it, when the car decides it is the right time.
I am just so disgusted with it right now. It is a 100% random problem, that I can not seem to get to happen in the driveway, no matter how many times I start it, bring it up to temperature, let it cool, rinse and repeat for days, and all is well. I drive it 4 times and on the 4th (and the shortest trip) it dies again.
I am SO willing to take this to a shop and pay $500 to have it fixed, but know it is going to be next to impossible for them to diagnose either!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-28-2014).]
Got stranded again last night.... err this morning actually, 4am. I drove the car all over the place for the past week thinking that in replacing all the things that I have, it was finally fixed. I drove to the beach yesterday, took a nice long leisurely drive... about 40 miles. I came home, and went back out to meet some friends for a couple drinks. On the way home, it just died doing 45mph about 15 miles from my house. I let it sit for an hour, and kept trying to start it, nothing.... I replaced the ICM, still nothing. I wound up using my last AAA tow for the year. No if... errr... WHEN this happens the next time, and every time there after will be around $250 a pop. It absolutely makes me not want to get in that car and go ANYWHERE with it.
I mean seriously, how would you like to have a $250 tow bill just hanging over your head, and will have to pay it, when the car decides it is the right time.
I am just so disgusted with it right now. It is a 100% random problem, that I can not seem to get to happen in the driveway, no matter how many times I start it, bring it up to temperature, let it cool, rinse and repeat for days, and all is well. I drive it 4 times and on the 4th (and the shortest trip) it dies again.
I am SO willing to take this to a shop and pay $500 to have it fixed, but know it is going to be next to impossible for them to diagnose either!
Key on - no crank - did the fuel pump run? - This indicates the ECM is getting power.
Did the tach rise to 200 RPM during cranking? - This indicates the ICM is getting a signal and putting out a signal to the coil.
Key on - just bump, and only bump the starter, does the ECM turn on the fuel pump for two seconds and the does it turn off again? If so that indicates the ICM is sending the crank signal to the ECM, and the ECM is receiving it. If you crank it the oil pump will build up oil pressure and the oil pressure sender will turn on the fuel pump. That however doesn't indicate anything other than the oiling system of the car is working so don't crank it unless you want your troubleshooting to go in the wrong direction. This is a good thing to try when the engine is working correctly so you can see how this test works
Does it fire on starting fluid when the trouble is happening? - This indicates the ignition system is working and points to the fuel system
Do you have fuel pressure enough to hit the deck lid when this trouble is happening?
------------------------
Also
If it is now starting and running - wiggle the wires that run to the ICM = the 4 wire and the 2 wire - while idling and see if you get it to skip. Wiggle the other connector to the coil. If you have the console off wiggle the wires to the ECM.
This looks real dangerous (Ok not the right word) - If you bend open the terminal more than what it should be you can cause an intermittent problem just like you are having. A paperclip flattened slightly is all the bigger of what you should stuff into one of these female terminals. Anything bigger will cause problems. Take a standard paperclip - flatten it slightly and test the terminals of your 2 and 4 pin connectors at the ICM. They all should hold the paperclip tightly. If loose that could be the cause of your troubles. A loose terminal on the pink or white wires would cause the tach to not rise and would kill the ignition. A loose terminal on the 4 wire connector could cause the ignition signal from the ICM not to reach the ECM. The starter bump test would then not activate the fuel pump.
Could a loose terminal work and then not work and then work? Yes it can cause exactly the problem you are having.
This can also happen on the fuel pump connector. If you noticed the terminals on the fuel pump power socket are the same as that two pin for the ICM. If they are loose your fuel pump can work and then not work and then work. You would see this as not hearing the fuel pump run at all, or run slow if you had high resistance and cause low fuel pressure.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 09-29-2014).]
ok, I took the plugs off and checked, and they are still nice and tight, and it appears no damage was done when I used the test light. I will definately use a paperclip in the future
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz: Key on - no crank - did the fuel pump run? - This indicates the ECM is getting power.
Yes, the fuel pump runs when the key is turned to the ON position.
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz: Did the tach rise to 200 RPM during cranking? - This indicates the ICM is getting a signal and putting out a signal to the coil.
Normally the tach does go to 200~400 RPM, but this time it did not. It appears to be Intermittent. Wiggling wires on the ECM, ICM, Coil and every other one I can reach seems to make no difference. I will swap another module in tomorrow and test again.
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz: Key on - just bump, and only bump the starter, does the ECM turn on the fuel pump for two seconds and the does it turn off again? If so that indicates the ICM is sending the crank signal to the ECM, and the ECM is receiving it.
The first time I bumped the key, yes, it did run for a couple seconds. A few minutes later I tried again for the video below, and it did not.
It's dark out, but I just went and shot a video of what is happening now. It is strange, when I tried to start the car, and it wouldn't, I had to look for a screwdriver to push in the schrader valve. I wanted to see if it was small enought, and it was, and sprayed fuel everywhere.
When I try again in the video below, you can see there is no fuel pressure, after hearing the fuel pump turn on many times when I was filming the OBD1 connector's LED. The LED just shows that there is power to the pump, not that it is actually running of course. You can not hear the pump in the video, but I can clearly hear hear it for a couple seconds when turning the key on.
Now you are beginning to see my dilemma, one minute I have fuel pressure, 5 minutes later I do not. The tach was moving during cranking last night, today it is not. The fuel pump DID run after bumping the key from the on position the first time, the next time it did not. The fuel pump IS running, I can hear it, yet no fuel pressure when checked the second time.
New fuel pump, new resistor / complete assembly from the Fiero Store, all new fuel rated lines lines in the tank. the tank has been dropped 5 times total now....) New ICM, after putting one in, car ran for a day, then died, I took module back and got a replacement. I ordered a new coil, 2 day shipping, it will be here tomorrow.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-29-2014).]
The tach isn't rising while cranking - indicates the ICM isn't putting out anything - could be caused by a bad ICM, bad power to the ICM (pink / white cable) bad pick up coil.
The ECM isn't running the fuel pump while you crank it - indicates the ECM isn't receiving the ICM pulses - could be all the above plus wiring between the ICM and ECM and the ECM itself. - This IS a problem. No fuel pump running mean the engine will not start. Your light should be on during the entire duration of cranking and for two seconds after you release the key back to ON. But don't think "I'll hot wire the fuel pump." That will fix the light but will not fix the underlying problem of the ECM not receiving ignition pulses from the ICM. Use the light as a tool to see when you get the ignition primary problem fixed.
No fuel pressure after you had cranked it and then it sat a bit. - I am not big on worrying about the fuel pressure leak down. The way I see it if the fuel pressure is there when it is running that is what I am concerned about. Anyways if the fuel pump had run when you first turned the key on, but had not ran for a few min, it could very well have leaked down enough to not squirt. Not really a valid test if much time has expired after the fuel pump has ran and the test occurs.
So - considering 1, 2, and 3 the common things are the ICM, the pick up coil and the power to the ICM. Since it is not working right now, that's good. A problem that just goes away isn't one that is solved and can likely come back. It would be best to identify what is causing this immediate problem and solve it.
0:45 on the tape - You weren't sure if the fuel pump power wasn't being supplied perhaps because there was fuel pressure already. - No - there is nothing that tells the ECM if there is fuel pressure or not. The ECM will run the fuel pump based on two things - did the key just get turned on (after it was off for at least 45 sec) and if so the ECM will turn it on for two seconds - and then whenever the ECM sees an ignition signal it will turn it on and keep it on for two seconds after the last pulse. So clearly the ECM isn't receiving an ignition pulse.
----- If when you get your new ICM you find that the ICM has failed, and you have multiple ICM failures - The new ICM will fail also. So if you get to that point then you need to look at the things that cause ICMs to fail. If you get to that point make sure you try all your ICMs and see if the old ones have actually failed or if perhaps they are good still.
Also - I think you have a second problem past this one. Since you had failure before when the tach was rising but the engine wasn't starting - whatever is happening now isn't what happened then. Sorry for that 'good' news.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 09-30-2014).]
As for the secondary problem, don't feel bad breaking that bit of "good news" as I have felt all along that there are multiple issues just making it so much more confusing to diagnose.
I will do my best to get another ICM tomorrow, and put it in. I then need to find another screw for the ICM, as I lost one the other night changing the ICM on the side of the road. I can test, but do not want to run it too long. With no good connection, metal to metal, I will just pop the new ICM when it overheats.
I bought another Fiero, and will have it in a few weeks. It's an 86 GT also, and I will swap the ECM from it into my car. I do plan to trouble shoot other stuff along the way, and hopefully solve it before then.
Thanks for all the help, and I will keep everything posted here that I try. I am glad to have that LED on the ODB1 cable, as that is a great visual reference.
He lost patience. I told him we could swap one for cheap, but his mom found a good car where she lives in Michigan for a good deal. An 06 Dodge Charger. He told me last Thursday about calling the pull-apart to come get it. Again I said have patience. Yesterday the tow truck came and got it. 
He now HATES Fieros. 
