quote Originally posted by f85gtron: revealed a tach filter wire grounding out on the valve cover bolt. Problem solved. Check that out too.. one of the white wires. Ron

I just traced the wire, and all looks well insulated with no breaks or cuts that I can find.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Could your new coil be bad, sometimes when a bad coil gets hot it "opens up" inside and doesn't produce any spark.

It could be possible, but I think it is highly unlikely. When the car would not start the last time, I replaced the coil and pigtail wires to it and the ICM. After doing that, the car still would not start. The chance that both coils were / are bad is pretty low. Especially when after sitting at times with the original coil, the car would start and run perfectly. Same exact thing with this coil.

I'd go ahead and do the pick up coil or new distributor despite having to reset the timing, when nothing makes sense and you've replaced everything else, why not?

Have you noticed if the tach is doing anything when cranked?

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 02-17-2015).]

The tack is not moving at all while cranking now. Turning the key on it jumps to 0 and then nothing when cranked.

I think JMBishop may be on to something. I was just reading an archive thread on someone with a problem similar to yours. They had the car towed to a shop and the shop diagnosed it as a bad stator in the distributor.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I think JMBishop may be on to something. I was just reading an archive thread on someone with a problem similar to yours. They had the car towed to a shop and the shop diagnosed it as a bad stator in the distributor.

Do you have a link to that thread? Also is the "stator" the same as the pick-up coil?

Regardless, changing the distributor it is. I have 2 that I can swap in actually. I will measure the ohm's as mentioned on the last page to see if one or both show 0. I'll then just take the seemingly better looking / less worn one.

I will be doing this with a little help from BuddyCraig

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-17-2015).]

I think I'd replace it with a new pick up coil but if you do test it you'll probably fine, in fact you could test the one in the car right now and if it reads 0 you'll be more confidant it really needed the coil. I could be wrong but I do believe stator would be another name for the coil.

Change everything...its time, and extra insurance.

Pick-up coil, ignition control module, screws (very, very important) distributor cap & rotor, and distributor oil seal.

I suggest and recommend AC Delco parts. The MSD blaster coil can be a nice upgrade if desired.

Make sure the coil to the ignition control module wiring harness is not damaged. The Fiero Store has a replacement
available. I have one on my 88GT. Sells at 34 $.

If you want you fiero to have a healthy ignition system, rebuild it with all the parts I outlined. You'll thank me down the road.

[This message has been edited by fierogt28 (edited 02-18-2015).]

quote Originally posted by jmbishop: I think I'd replace it with a new pick up coil but if you do test it you'll probably fine, in fact you could test the one in the car right now and if it reads 0 you'll be more confidant it really needed the coil. I could be wrong but I do believe stator would be another name for the coil.

What Ohm range am I looking to get? Some posts back said if it is good it should read 0 (Zero) ohms....

quote Originally posted by fierogt28: Change everything...its time, and extra insurance. Pick-up coil, ignition control module, screws (very, very important) distributor cap & rotor, and distributor oil seal. Make sure the coil to the ignition control module wiring harness is not damaged. The Fiero Store has a replacement available. I have one on my 88GT. Sells at 34 $.

As mentioned in previous posts, I have already replaced the Ignition Coil (with an MSD Coil), module, distributor cap, rotor and the ignition control module wiring harness (Both the coil to module, and the module to ECM plug).

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl_CCeI7KHo

Ok, now I am confused. The above video suggests that it should read 0 Ohms.

THIS VIDEO says it should be from 500 Ohms to 1500 Ohms (The link is directly to 8:55 in the video where he states this). Are the readings different for different pick-up coils for model and make of car?

You should have some kind of resistance value terminal to terminal on the pickup coil (if it's 0, the coil is broken. If it's 1, the windings have shorted to each other). You should have 0 from one Pickup coil terminal to distributor body ground (if you get a value or 1, it's shorting to the body)
Check the primary and secondary coils too , while you've got the ohm meter out. It couldn't hurt.
If the pickup coil on the dizzy looks anything but brand new, replace it.

Edited for clarity.

[This message has been edited by f85gtron (edited 02-18-2015).]

Yes the stator is another word for pickup coil. When they are failing it is usually heat related, they work okay until they get too hot then they short out. From what I have read they can start working again when they cool off but eventually they will stop working altogether. Our V6 engine compartments get very hot, this is probably why GM put the cooling fan in to blow air on the distributor. I would also check the connectors and wires to the pickup coil if you haven't already and be sure not to pinch the wire to the pickup coil when you put the distributor cap on.

So the pick up coil hasnt been replaced? If not that is probably it.

Unplug the tach filter and see if you get spark then.
Ron

I unplugged the tach filter, still no spark.

I am going out to the shed now and going to install a new pick-up coil on the better of the 2 distributors. The more modern and better one that does not have the "Star" tines that can bend and warp. I will then install, and see what happens.

Wow, I can't imagine how frustrated you must be, I am mad at my GT now because the water pump I just put on is leaking so now I have to take it off again but that's nothing compared to the frustration you must be feeling. Is there another Fiero person that lives close to you that could look at the car or even a shop close that is good at diagnostics? Maybe Yellowstone on here knows of a good shop?? Hang in there. If all else fails maybe you could trailer it to Daytona and have some of the Fiero people look at it.

Find something you can legally take that sledge to, to help with the aggrevation (that isnt your car). Remember to wear safety glasses. An old appliance maybe?
Seriously though I hope it gets straightened out, and it will just dont give up. How many sets of eyes have been there to check this out? Sometimes it takes many fresh perspectives in person.
The thinga bout chasing these tyope things is possibly changes, like maybe a fusible link can get damaged, or a wire not get hooked up, or a fuse popped even while fixin ghte actual problem.
Keep the faith.

I skimmed through the posts only so someone may have covered it already.
What are your plugs gapped at?
This might be a long shot but i had a similar issue a few years back with my 86 se 2.8 ..

Seems like a silly thing to ask but there was a set of pugs in my 86 when i bought it that where over gapped. Coil would heat up and
i would replace part after part. Finally, many parts later, I redid the plugs and found the massive gap causing the over stressed coil/heat issue.

+1 on the gap, although you've checked that or replaced the plugs numerous times IIRC.

People recommend the 3.8 over lesser upgrades. They seem to go smoother than simply replacing the 2.8. Why, I ask myself, would that be? Could it be that when you do a swap like the 3.8 you generally are replacing the harness with one from a newer vehicle which had the engine in the front? When you replace the same engine you move the harness around quite a bit, right? And this is a harness that has been baked for thirty years. The fact that it's intermittent and you're currently not getting distributor pulses (tach not registering when cranking) points to a weak or broken wire. This has often been the ultimate culprit in numerous threads that begin, "I replaced the cap, rotor, plugs, etc., etc., now it won't run, or runs badly."

I feel your pain. I was wondering if you had finally got it to run reliably. It's hard to believe when these things happen. My SE sits outside, not having started since last summer. It sat over two years until July, then I drove it up here and into storage. Then I drove it to work for awhile. One morning it wouldn't start after breakfast. Then a week later it wouldn't start on the way to work. I've done all sorts of things. It cranks like a champ and registers strong on the tach. But not a pop. How can this happen? There has to be an answer. We'll find those answers.

Not at all what I was hoping to hear. I wish I was closer, I'd do everything I could to help out. I don't know what else to check other than trying another wiring harness. Is the tach still reading no RPM when cranked? If so it has to be a ignition component or the wiring for it.

You've probably been through all this, but does the ecm show trouble codes when all this is happening? Try to jumper the aldl connector to see if the ecm even has power while things are crapping out. If not, check the weather pack by the battery and the battery connections.
My thoughts:
Coil no power
I c m no power
Ecm no power

These, and the vehicle key ignition are the only things that will totally cut out everything, drt (Dead Right There)
Ron
Edited to add stuff

[This message has been edited by f85gtron (edited 02-19-2015).]

Do you have someone with a Fiero who lives close by that you can compare diagnostic results with? This way you can see if the test results are similar and maybe sway good parts.
Pardon me if this has already been mentioned.

Is the ignition coil grounded good to the bracket it's mounted on? It might be worth checking at this point. With everything you've done, it sure seems like you should be getting spark.

Just a thought... I know you just spent money installing new distributor components, but you may want to consider buying a completely new updated distributor with updated components (with star-type pickup coil). Rockauto has new Cardone Select units for $76. In fact, I'm ordering one tonight, as I just discovered the magnets for the pickup coil are disintegrating on my 2.8. For the cost of good replacement parts, you can have a whole new (updated) distributor.

I haven't had time to read through all of this thread yet, so if you've already checked into the coil ground... carry on. I know you are beyond frustrated, but I am confident there is a solution here that's been evading you, and it's at your fingertips. Our tiny little plastic cars are getting old and unfortunately they are starting to act like it too! Trust me, I know...

Hang in there man, take a break from all this for a while if you need to. Maybe even get another set of eyes on the situation for a fresh look. I think we all can completely understand at this point.

Now put that sledgehammer down.

[This message has been edited by ITALGT (edited 02-19-2015).]

I just swapped each and every one of these parts in. Yes, I have duplicates now of just about everything on the engine. After each one, I would try to start the car. After each one, no blip on the tach when cranking, and no spark. Not pictured, are the new rotor & cap that I also swapped in with the rebuilt distributor. The TPS has nothing to do with spark, but what the heck.....

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-20-2015).]

John I have spent the evening reading your thread about all the attemps you have done. I have also seen alot of members here giving you good advise and problem tracking posibilities.... here is my 2 cents and even if I am not as mechanically inclined as all the good members here....... did you check the fuses after all that soaking while getting painted !!! lol............

You are and IT specialist ....... they repair and solve IT issues .......
A mechanic Specialist .... they repair cars and solve mecanical issues.

I see only one solution please take these steps

STEP BACK FROM THE FIERO !!!! your are and IT specialist (like me) ... You have spent over 600 dollars and 2 years to try and resolve this issue, time to stop the hemorrhaging. I would take my car to a specialist and let them figure it out. If they give it back and it starts doing it again call them and tell them the issue is NOT fixed and you have paid to resolve it. I also did have a mechanical issue took the car to his shop paid 400+ $ after 1 week problem came back ..... took it back he had it 3 days ...when it came back NEVER HAD a problem since

Moral of this story..... Specialists are there to resolve SPECIAL problems..

PS I have 2 running 87 GTs with auto tranny and air you can have any parts you want... just send me list and they're yours ...

greatest regards my american friend ...... remember Tyler

Danyel an IT specialist but on the darkside of the force "Apple"

------------------

My Build Thread
Tylers Toy

[This message has been edited by Danyel (edited 02-20-2015).]

Threads like these make me cringe, I hate throwing parts at an issue and hoping that fixes it. After reading this thread it sounds like you are not getting power somewhere. Part after part has been replaced, with no result.

I know you've done the wiggle test, but it's not alway that easy. I've seen issues where wires appeared good but were broken. It would work for a short time, then the wire would heat at the break (resistance at work) the insulation would get soft and stretch, breaking the connection and shutting off the light.

I don't have a 2.8, but, how easy would it be to run a temporary power wire from the battery to the coil or distributor (or both) next time it stops running? If it starts right back up, and then shuts down when you disconnect it, that would be a huge clue to the issue.

quote Originally posted by Tuna Helper: Threads like these make me cringe, I hate throwing parts at an issue and hoping that fixes it. After reading this thread it sounds like you are not getting power somewhere. Part after part has been replaced, with no result. I know you've done the wiggle test, but it's not alway that easy. I've seen issues where wires appeared good but were broken. It would work for a short time, then the wire would heat at the break (resistance at work) the insulation would get soft and stretch, breaking the connection and shutting off the light. I don't have a 2.8, but, how easy would it be to run a temporary power wire from the battery to the coil or distributor (or both) next time it stops running? If it starts right back up, and then shuts down when you disconnect it, that would be a huge clue to the issue.

I agree, hot wiring the ignition might isolate the real problem.

First and foremost, thank you to everyone for all the help. It is very much appreciated. Especially to Dean who has helped me so many, many times with the car.

I have been working on this car for 4, almost 5 years now, and I think many people know all of the problems that I have had along the way. From the paint job on it's third time, having to replace the engine when I was told it ran when I bought it... Hell just having the passenger window replaced took the glass company 2 months and the broke a window in the process. I bought brand new wheels and tires (with the stickers still on the tires) to find out that the tires were 20 years old and had to purchase them all new all over again as they were completely dry rotted and cracking. It took the alignment shop 5 tries and over a week just to get an alignment on the car. Every step of this car has been a major point of stress. Heck, for a normal person, they would take Timo's headlight buckets and powder coat them and install. I had them powder coated, they screwed them up, they tried to repair them 4 times over the course of a month, and in the end they were stripped of all of the galvanized coating and were rusted badly. If that was not enough, they bent them out of shape, and ruined them. This has been the ongoing process with each and every thing I have done to this car.

I have thus far put $11,280 into the car (I have a detailed spread sheet). I have hit the proverbial wall, and have just had enough. I simply do not have any more money to pour into this car. I will put the brand new and unused car cover over it I got for Christmas, and will figure out the best course of action. Be that trying to sell it, or if it would be better to possibly part it out. I will not be doing this for some time, as I will take the time to think it through and weigh the options.

Obviously I will not be attending the Daytona Show this year, but will do what I can from here to still try to help plan things out.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-21-2015).]

John, I sent you my number on fb.

Do what I did.....THROW AWAY THE SPREADSHEET!
You'll feel much better. Sometimes, it's better not to ask some questions.....
Get a fresh set of eyes on it.
Ron

I did not read all 7 pages of this issue, so I am probably repeating someone, But have you tried a new oil pressure sending unit, If it is intermittent, may not let fuel pump run when hot / restart???

Well take some time away from it then one day you will feel like working on it and more than likely you will find the problem like i did on my car but i had to step back and take a break to clear my head

quote Originally posted by engine man: Well take some time away from it then one day you will feel like working on it and more than likely you will find the problem like i did on my car but i had to step back and take a break to clear my head

quote Originally posted by f85gtron: Do what I did.....THROW AWAY THE SPREADSHEET! You'll feel much better. Sometimes, it's better not to ask some questions..... Get a fresh set of eyes on it. Ron

This is true. Do what you can afford at the time, make the car what you want, and enjoy it. Tracking what one has into it will only be annoying, and lead to a let down when it comes time to sell. Car hobbys are fun, but rarely money makers, unless you make a car someone else wants, and dont drive it which may get you paint scratches, but wheres the fun in not driving it.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Do what you can afford at the time, make the car what you want, and enjoy it.

I would LOVE to. This is what I have been TRYING to do for 3 years now around this problem.

As for the spreadsheet, it is not to remind myself what I spent, I have a good grasp that I will NEVER recover what is into it. It is more of a journal of when I purchased parts and from who / where. When I look back over it, it is neat to see the hundreds of places that parts came from all over the US & Canada.

Lou called me the other night, and talked me into taking another look at the car before deciding what to do with it. He is coming over this morning, and hopefully with his experience, he can see something that I have overlooked, or a way to test something that I am unaware of. Fingers crossed.......

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-23-2015).]

Here's hoping you find the problem

quote Originally posted by JohnWPB: Lou called me the other night, and talked me into taking another look at the car before deciding what to do with it. He is coming over this morning, and hopefully with his experience, he can see something that I have overlooked, or a way to test something that I am unaware of. Fingers crossed.......

Cool keep posting here too if anything develops

Ok, I had blown a brand new module by in haste, not putting in one of the screws that hold it down. Replaced the module and it started.

This for absolutely 100% certainty was NOT the only issue. The missing screw is something recent, from just the past couple weeks. I have had the car die randomly while driving over the course of the past 2 years. During that time replaced modules many, many times and the car still would not start. This time it was the cause of no spark however.

Moving on, Lou is "99% certain" that it was the C-300 C-500 connector causing the intermittent issues. This is the large plug just rear of the battery going towards the back of the car. When we removed it, it had a lot of gunk and corrosion. We cleaned the terminals up like brand new and re-assembled it.

He also showed me an orange wire coming from that area, that from appearances looks like a fusable link. It is not a fusable link, but a plug for the ECM that cuts all power, and clears the ECM when unplugged. He said the guys on the line would uncouple this plug to clear out any codes generated during assembly. This was faster and easier than removing battery cables. He also said when they plugged it back in, (it is a TIGHT fit) 50% of them, from the factory are loose, and the little locking clasp is not locked. It is something worth checking you r Fiero if you have a 2.8.

So, with those 2 latter things, Lou is VERY convinced that this will solve the problem. They only way for me to know unfortunately, is to drive it a lot, and just pray that I do not get stranded again. I have used all for AAA tows, and am not up for renewal until March 5th when I can pay and everything resets again. If the car breaks down again, it will be at least a couple hundred dollars out of pocket. That or just burn it to the ground where it dies!

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-23-2015).]

FYI, the name of the connector is C-500.....
Hope your problem is solved.