Super glad you got it running. I have read on other threads here though that the goop inside the C500 connector is supposed to be there as weatherproofing.
Ok, I had blown a brand new module by in haste, not putting in one of the screws that hold it down. Replaced the module and it started.
This for absolutely 100% certainty was NOT the only issue. The missing screw is something recent, from just the past couple weeks. I have had the car die randomly while driving over the course of the past 2 years. During that time replaced modules many, many times and the car still would not start. This time it was the cause of no spark however.
Moving on, Lou is "99% certain" that it was the C-300 C-500 connector causing the intermittent issues. This is the large plug just rear of the battery going towards the back of the car. When we removed it, it had a lot of gunk and corrosion. We cleaned the terminals up like brand new and re-assembled it.
He also showed me an orange wire coming from that area, that from appearances looks like a fusable link. It is not a fusable link, but a plug for the ECM that cuts all power, and clears the ECM when unplugged. He said the guys on the line would uncouple this plug to clear out any codes generated during assembly. This was faster and easier than removing battery cables. He also said when they plugged it back in, (it is a TIGHT fit) 50% of them, from the factory are loose, and the little locking clasp is not locked. It is something worth checking you r Fiero if you have a 2.8.
So, with those 2 latter things, Lou is VERY convinced that this will solve the problem. They only way for me to know unfortunately, is to drive it a lot, and just pray that I do not get stranded again. I have used all for AAA tows, and am not up for renewal until March 5th when I can pay and everything resets again. If the car breaks down again, it will be at least a couple hundred dollars out of pocket. That or just burn it to the ground where it dies!
Drive it around the block a few times. That part should be fine. Now your car has been through many rough days. Something else may pop up.
While I don't usually know enough to post in threads like these, they are still good to read because I almost always find out something new, like the ecm connector in the c500.
A friend with a truck and cargo strap ... that's all you need ... you would be surprised of how many times I pushed my fiero into a parking lot when I had that type of issue. My girl brought the truck and a cargo strap ... towed it home more than a dozen times before that issue was solved. regards Danyel
So exactly how does it get towed under AAA but can't be towed after you're over coverage? "Towing" is commonly done by rollback as in your avatar. Not buying the $250 minimum charge as being universal to all companies in your area.
As to the insurance paid towing comment, charges to insurance are typical to be higher than private, but $120 isn't that far out of line. I'm in the southern US. Rollback towing starts at $45 pretty much across the state. Higher prices can be seen in higher cost of living regions.
[This message has been edited by mental floss (edited 02-25-2015).]
Originally posted by mental floss: So exactly how does it get towed under AAA but can't be towed after you're over coverage? "Towing" is commonly done by rollback as in your avatar.
You are obviously not familiar with how AAA works. You pay a yearly fee, in my case $120 for the Premier Service. It provides me with three 100 mile tows and one 200 mile tow at no cost. Once those allotted tows, 4 in my case, are used up, you then pay regular price out of pocket for any additional towing. As for the roll back, I request a Flat Bed when I make the service call. The one time I forgot to ask specifically for a flat bed, a standard tow truck showed up. It cost me waiting another hour for the second truck to arrive.
quote
Originally posted by mental floss: Not buying the $250 minimum charge as being universal to all companies in your area.
I would not be so rude to say that I am "not buying the $45" to have a vehicle towed, but I would say that is kinda hard to grasp. The hook up fee in this area is a minimum of $85.
I never said that a $250 minimal charge was universal to all companies in my area.
I also never said that my car cant be towed again after the coverage expires.
I am not sure where you are reading this stuff
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-25-2015).]
I have AAA. Had it for about 10 yrs. Have Premium now, but I wouldn't use them if it was going to be close to $200. I've had to pay over-mileage to them before. I knew the rate before I locked in the service.
Thought I saw in an earlier post about how much a tow was going to cost and it being about $250 a couple of pages ago, which is not realistic unless you're a couple of counties away. When I saw the above similar statement I responded. A rate under $100 I would "guess" to be about the going rate in your area if I were to call them from your YPs online. Sorry if I assumed you were talking about a minimum $250 for a tow only in this quote I used. But I appreciate the frustration of the car and the situation you're in with it and I sure do hope you have it sorted this time. It's sounding promising.
Here, drunks caught driving get charged a ridiculous rate for a tow. It costs about $200 after 1 day storage last I heard, but then there was a big scandal where tow companies were found corrupting local officials for inflated rates. A simple person hiring a tow back home gets the lowest rate available. Insured tows get hit harder. Haven't used one lately, so I guess a named agent could probably be closer to $75 than the $45 I stated by now.
I have AAA. Had it for about 10 yrs. Have Premium now, but I wouldn't use them if it was going to be close to $200. I've had to pay over-mileage to them before. I knew the rate before I locked in the service.
Ah, Ok, I think you just missed part of what I said. The 4 times that I was towed, it was free. My free tows for the 12 month period are now over. If I were to break down again, I would pay regular price for a tow, not just the mileage overage.
I do plan to renew AAA in a couple weeks when I can, and I will start with a clean fresh slate so to speak.
Yea, it has been very frustrating to say the least. I have been stranded over 9 times in the past 2 years, once on the way to the Daytona show last year. 5 times, after the car sitting for some time, I was able to get it back home. The other 4 times I had to be towed.
Your being stranded 9 times reminds me of a 66 Chevelle that I owned back in the 80's. Almost every time my wife drove it, it stopped running and sometimes would start after it sat for awhile, sometimes it wouldn't. It never stopped on me though. My wife was very happy to see that car go.
As to the insurance paid towing comment, charges to insurance are typical to be higher than private, but $120 isn't that far out of line. I'm in the southern US. Rollback towing starts at $45 pretty much across the state. Higher prices can be seen in higher cost of living regions.
True. In my case I paid and then insurance reimbursed me. It was a pick up not a Fiero though, they towed it with 2 wheels off the ground.
I went for a leisurely drive tonight. I had driven around 15 miles, and was on the way home, about 2 miles from my development when the car died. Same old thing, driving along around 50 MPH and poof, it died. I coasted into an apartment complex and popped the hood. I checked everything visually, wiggled all the connectors. I pressed in the shrader valve, and got a nice pressurized quirt of fuel everywhere. I let it sit for a while, and it just refused to start. I removed the gas cap, got no hiss at all, and tried again, nothing. All it would do is a SLIGHT pop as soon as I tapped the key, and then it would just crank with no further firing sounds at all. Each time it would rumble a tiny but when I tried to start it. When I did crank, the tach would climb to 1000 RPM while cranking. This seemed like the same old "Sounds like it is out of gas" scenario I have been through time and time again. When I last filled the car, I filled it to the very top, even clicking the gas nozzle a few times till fuel ran into the top of the fuel neck. I reset the trip meter when I got in the car. The trip meter now has 83 miles on it. Of note, when it was acting up here at the house a few days ago, I put 3 gallons in it just to "insure" that it was not out of gas. So roughly calculating the car should have close to 8 to 9 gallons in the tank.
I called a friend and asked him to bring me some gas, just to make sure AGAIN. When he arrived, before I put any gas in the car, I tried one last time to start it, and with the slightest tap of the key, it fired right up and idled perfectly. Unreal..... Anyhow, I drove it home, and this is where it sits.
I ran to Harbor Freight and exchanged my defective fuel pressure gauge I had bought there. When I got home, I hooked it up, and have 43 PSI when the car is running:
When I turn the car off, the Fuel Pressure, over time, is as follows:
after 58 seconds; 40 psi after 1:44 seconds; 40 psi after 1:44 seconds; 35 psi after 2:38 seconds; 30 psi after 4:06 seconds; 25 psi after 6:34 seconds; 20 psi after 10:20 seconds; 15 psi
There is a possibility some of the pressure is leaking due to the cheap Harbor Freight pressure gauge I am using. Even so, the pressure is holding decently when the car is turned off. Even after sitting 6 minutes, there is enough pressure for the car to run.
That is all I know for now, other than when I walked out 2 to 3 times tonight, the car started with just the slightest tap of the key each and every time.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-27-2015).]
I think your fuel pressure drops off too fast, but that probably doesn't explain why your engine suddenly dies while you're driving. I dunno...
Have you got one of these gizmos? It's an inline spark tester... can be found for cheap HERE.
I've used one of these between my coil and distributor just to double-check that I was actually getting consistent spark on one of my 2.8 Fieros. Works well, costs next to nothing. Eliminates at least one variable.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-27-2015).]
I did not read all 7 pages of this issue, so I am probably repeating someone, But have you tried a new oil pressure sending unit, If it is intermittent, may not let fuel pump run when hot / restart???
/\ /\ /\ If Fieros have this feature it may be worth looking into.
Originally posted by jmbishop: So if I'm reading this right, you had fuel pressure that was unknown until it was home and running again and you had spark?
I am not sure if I had GOOD fuel pressure till I got home and put the gauge on it after it was running. Surmise to say, it PROBABLY had good fuel pressure when it would not start, as I had unknown pressure at the sharader valve, (Enough to spray quite well at least) and I could hear the fuel pump run when I turned on the key to try to start it. Spark; I do not know if I had before it decided to start, and I could get it home. I was going to have the friend that came to get me turn the key to check for spark, but it decided to run when he got there instead. I contorted, twisted and stretched, but I could not reach to turn the key AND see if there was spark.
quote
Originally posted by therepairguy: I did not read all 7 pages of this issue, so I am probably repeating someone, But have you tried a new oil pressure sending unit, If it is intermittent, may not let fuel pump run when hot / restart???
quote
Originally posted by 2.5: /\ /\ /\ If Fieros have this feature it may be worth looking into.
I will look into that. If I recall though, the oil pressure sending unit is strictly a backup to feed power to the fuel pump when cranking the engine. This is a secondary source of power to the fuel pump if the fuel relay quits working. My fuel pump runs when the key is turned to the run position, therefore my fuel pressure relay is good, and the oil pressure sending gauge is not what it feeding the fuel pump power. This is at least what I THINK I have learned how all things work Fiero over the past 2 years trying to find this problem!
I was going to have the friend that came to get me turn the key to check for spark, but it decided to run when he got there instead. I contorted, twisted and stretched, but I could not reach to turn the key AND see if there was spark.
Well, that's just it... I was hoping you'd be able to use the inline spark tester immediately after your engine cuts out. You need to see right then and there whether you have a consistent and strong spark.
Don't wait for your buddy to meet up with you the next time your engine dies while you're driving... grab a stranger walking by (seriously!) and ask/beg/pay them to kindly turn your ignition key while you watch the tester (which is always carried in your car).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-27-2015).]
+1 on the oil pressure switch. Granted it doesn't make any known sense except those things are known to have and create all sorts of problems. I was reading an archived thread yesterday about an attempted one week 3.4 swap. They didn't make it anyway, but the biggest problem they encountered was getting it started. It would almost start, run a couple seconds, then quit. They came to the conclusion it was the oil pump sender because when they messed with the connector it finally started and ran. They claimed the oil pressure sender was turning the engine off because it wasn't getting a signal for proper oil pressure. As other posters pointed out to him in '04, the sender doesn't work that way, never did. You have to admit though, it was running after they messed with the OPS and not prior.
I may have had a similar experience. When I had my leaking OPS replaced the dealer couldn't get the car to start. It would only crank. I don't know what they did to fix it, but I noticed that they had reconnected the trunk popper switch (!), which I had disconnected. I also noticed recently that the OPS connecter is all twisted like they connected it and then screwed it in. I've come to the conclusion that they used tape on the threads, which prevents it from grounding. BTW, that car is now only cranking. Just won't start. It has spark. It used to smell of gas, but I've been cranking in flood clear mode.
Many people have replaced the original sender with the '88. Ogre has a page on the wiring changes needed. You need the sender and the '88 connector because it doesn't have the fuel pump backup circuit.
Well, that's just it... I was hoping you'd be able to use the inline spark tester immediately after your engine cuts out. You need to see right then and there whether you have a consistent and strong spark.
Don't wait for your buddy to meet up with you the next time your engine dies while you're driving... grab a stranger walking by (seriously!) and ask/beg/pay them to kindly turn your ignition key while you watch the tester (which is always carried in your car).
Prop your cell phone, recording in video mode, somewhere safe in the engine bay and close the lid gently if it's light out.
The only way it could be the oil press sender is IF it had a direct short to ground and drew so much power that the pump wouldn't run, BUT you would just blow the fuse. You can always unplug it, BUT you have to wait untill the dead state to test, or it is pointless.
What kind/model number are your spark plug wires, I know they are accel but what model number?
Edit to add: Please update your list of what you have replaced like you did a couple of pages back. AND do a list of what you have done. include what brand/type of part used, as you have said you keep records. simple list so it is easy to go over.
Then be prepared to do some tests, and be willing to drive it untill it dies, plan time for this, and thus time for it to start up again. not trying to ask too much just trying to fix it
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-02-2015).]
I saw that after you turned the car off your fuel pressure dropped considerably. You may want to confirm that this is not due to the gauge. It may be one of two things. A leaky injector, or more likely a fuel pressure regulator. The fuel pressure regulator does what the name implies by returning fuel to the tank. If you have an old on that is sticking or one that is damaged (from rebuilding the fuel system, etc.) it will dump fuel back into the tank and the engine will not have enough fuel pressure to run under load. It would likely be sticking in this case, since you say it doesn't always turn on when you go to restart it. Later on... After all those bumps back home on the tow truck it could get it into a position where it seals again well enough to start the car. So try turning the car on, but not starting it, to engage the fuel pump and then when you get up to the 35-45 psi of a non running 2.8 shut off the key. It should only drop 2-4 psi in the first 5 minutes and steadily decline from there. If it is faster than that you likely have a bad fuel pressure regulator.
I saw that after you turned the car off your fuel pressure dropped considerably. You may want to confirm that this is not due to the gauge. It may be one of two things. A leaky injector, or more likely a fuel pressure regulator. The fuel pressure regulator does what the name implies by returning fuel to the tank. If you have an old on that is sticking or one that is damaged (from rebuilding the fuel system, etc.) it will dump fuel back into the tank and the engine will not have enough fuel pressure to run under load. It would likely be sticking in this case, since you say it doesn't always turn on when you go to restart it. Later on... After all those bumps back home on the tow truck it could get it into a position where it seals again well enough to start the car. So try turning the car on, but not starting it, to engage the fuel pump and then when you get up to the 35-45 psi of a non running 2.8 shut off the key. It should only drop 2-4 psi in the first 5 minutes and steadily decline from there. If it is faster than that you likely have a bad fuel pressure regulator.
and check the line going to the regulator for gas in it, usally they leak gas into the vac line.
This really shouldn't be this hard, you only need 4 things to start a car, fuel, spark, timming, compression. the last two won't change, so you need to drive it untill it dies and then check fuel and spark, it is worthless to check it when you get home and it is running, just pointless. Carry a spark tester, starting fluid and a fuel pressure gauge with you and TRY to make it die, then test the hell out of it, if it starts, quit testing and go again untill it dies, once you figure out how to make it die consistently you will be on the right track.
No twilight zone BS, and no "off the wall theorys" Just be logical and get it fixed. I tried to take ownership of this problem and fix it but everyone said I was wrong, and had some far out theory that obviously didn't work. be methodical and fix it allready.
Down load a service manual and follow the trouble shooting tree, it will fix 95% of the problems. EVERY time it dies test the hell out of it, don't waste time calling your friend for gas, test, test, test, check spark, fuel, make sure you have check engine light, detail everything that happens, if you don't figure it out on the first try, then more testing and documention, it will narrow down the problem.
BTW did you ever fix your exhaust leak?
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-04-2015).]
This really shouldn't be this hard, you only need 4 things to start a car, fuel, spark, timming, compression. the last two won't change, so you need to drive it untill it dies and then check fuel and spark, it is worthless to check it when you get home and it is running, just pointless. Carry a spark tester, starting fluid and a fuel pressure gauge with you and TRY to make it die, then test the hell out of it, if it starts, quit testing and go again untill it dies, once you figure out how to make it die consistently you will be on the right track.
No twilight zone BS, and no "off the wall theorys" Just be logical and get it fixed. I tried to take ownership of this problem and fix it but everyone said I was wrong, and had some far out theory that obviously didn't work. be methodical and fix it allready.
Down load a service manual and follow the trouble shooting tree, it will fix 95% of the problems. EVERY time it dies test the hell out of it, don't waste time calling your friend for gas, test, test, test, check spark, fuel, make sure you have check engine light, detail everything that happens, if you don't figure it out on the first try, then more testing and documention, it will narrow down the problem.
It has Fiero Fiberglass's 355i fiberglass bumper on it. 
It's all very strange.
