Purchased the car and it had a blown engine, got in a new crate engine, and all new parts, Module, metal impeller water pump, Alternator, Starter, A/C compressor, TPS, O2 Sensor, MAF sensor, plugs wires rotor cap, Fuel Pump, fuel pump relay.... and probably more I cant think of....
The car starts and runs great with just the slightest tap of the key. Randomly it will die while driving, (Like on the way to The Daytona show!) and other times when parking to go in a store, coming out and it will not start. When it happens, It acts exactly like it is out of fuel. (The gas gauge does not work, and think I need a new gauge) It will crank and sometimes pop just a bit, like it wants to start. When I turn the key on, I can hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds and cut off. I can also see the voltage gauge at 12v or so when I turn the key on, and jump up a volt or so when the fuel pump kicks off. 2 signs that the fuel pump is supposedly working.
Of note, when it will not start, turning on the key, the tachometer needle blips, so I do not think it is the module. Also, would a module do this type of on again off again thing? This happened to me tonight. I put $20 in gas this afternoon. Went to Harbor Freight, was in the store about 15 minutes, came out and the car would not start. Turning on the key, I can hear the fuel pump. Trying to start, it again acts like a car that's out of gas. Sputters just a bit every now and then while trying to start it. I wait another 10 minutes will not start. I wait another 15 minutes and it fired just by tapping the key. I then drove it the 5 miles or so home with no problem.
What I have done: Replaced the fuel pump with new filter Replaced all rubber lines in the tank Purchased new "modern" sending unit from the Fiero store for $250 (Gas gauge still does not work! Argh! Wasted $250!) (I have dropped the tank like 4 times now! ! !) As mentioned above, the module was put on new when I was putting everything on the crate engine.
Why would it run perfectly to go to the store, and then not want to restart? If it were a module, that would not act up at the exact time the car is turned off, and then between coming out and trying to start it again.... would it?.
I am baffled, and I am VERY reluctant to take the car anywhere at this point, as it could happen in any lane, on any road / highway at any time.
Could be the module. Gets hot, has trouble. Cools down, works fine. What's the condition of the distributor? Pickup coil? Were the injectors cleaned and blueprinted before being installed? Does it only fail when the car is hot, or also at cold start? What about the fuel pressure regulator? Is the timing set right?
If it only happens when hot, I would definitely be leaning more toward an electrical problem than a fuel delivery problem.
Could also be a bad ECM possibly, if it only happens when the car has heated up. if ECM is getting too hot, it could cause problems.
I wish I had a spare ECM laying around to test. Even testing is going to be a royal pain, as it does it randomly. Meaning, I replace the ECM, and then get stuck somewhere again....
As for coil / Distributor, fuel injectors, ... its possible, but unlikely considering the way it starts cold and runs perfectly every time.
Thinking of past times it acted up, It does appear to happen when it is up to temperature.... However it runs perfectly till parked, and then will not start. That is another piece of the puzzle that I don't get. When a module gets hot, it will just die, not usually work, and wait for you to turn the car off, and then not restart.
At the beginning I was 100% sure it was a fuel problem. When it has died driving the 2 times it did, it sputtered and acted EXACTLY like a car running out out of gas. When you then tried to crank it, same thing. I would go get a few gallons of gas, pour in it, and it would immediately start with no problem. Knowing now, this was probably due to whatever the problem is, cooling down so the car would start again.
It is very aggravating having this car, and being scared to take it anywhere, as it may just die while sitting at a traffic light.....
Why would it run perfectly to go to the store, and then not want to restart? If it were a module, that would not act up at the exact time the car is turned off, and then between coming out and trying to start it again.... would it?.
If I had to guess with what we know, I'd say it is a heat soak issue with the ICM.
I suspect an ICM can actually get a little hotter for a short while after a warmed up engine is turned off (due to lack of both coolant flow and air movement within the engine bay).
And yes, a faulty ICM will poop out and then work again. Been there done that.
It's too bad you don't have an extra known-good distributor there you could just pop in and see what happens.
It's possible I suppose that a heat-soak issue could affect a coil as well, but I've never had a bad coil to mess around with.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-04-2014).]
Thinking of past times it acted up, It does appear to happen when it is up to temperature.... However it runs perfectly till parked, and then will not start. That is another piece of the puzzle that I don't get. When a module gets hot, it will just die, not usually work, and wait for you to turn the car off, and then not restart.
If I understand the ICM correctly, it has two separate circuits. A start circuit and a run circuit. I have seen a nearly new Delco ICM that would not allow the car to start with the key, but if you rolled the car off, and let out the clutch, it would fire right up. I would have been quite skeptical if I hadn't seen it myself.
Also check all of the wiring between the distributor, coil, and engine harness. Pay particular attention to the two wire jumper and the power connector on top of the coil.
If I understand the ICM correctly, it has two separate circuits. A start circuit and a run circuit. I have seen a nearly new Delco ICM that would not allow the car to start with the key, but if you rolled the car off, and let out the clutch, it would fire right up. I would have been quite skeptical if I hadn't seen it myself.
Raydar, any chance that could occur simply because there'd be more voltage available to a borderline ICM when the starter wasn't being used?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-03-2014).]
Fuel boiling, vapor lock. Try insulating fuel lines where they pass manifold, etc. Today's fuel has a lower boiling point because of the alcohol (ethanol).
I will check the wiring closely when I get home from work. As for vapor lock, I forgot to say I ruled that out with leaving the gas cap very loose. As for fuel boiling, it is possible, but doubtful, as it can take a half hour waiting to re-start the car, and the fuel line should cool off much much sooner from boiling point. That and the lines are all in stock locations, as well as the exhaust.
In the mean time, it sounds like I need to get a hold of a spare ECM. There are 0 (zero) Fiero's in any junkyard within 100 miles of my house. Gonna have to post something ni the mall. I hope I can get one reasonable, as I do not know yet if that is even the problem.
Just another note for diagnosis, the car never overheats, it has a new radiator, new cooling fan and all relays, not a single dent in the cooling tubes, and all new hoses all around. Fan kicks on at temperature as it should.
Go to O'Reilly's or wherever you go locally, and get another ICM. Should be less than $30, is a 5 minute swap.
Make sure there's plenty of fuel in the tank, and then try to reproduce the problem without driving. Let the car idle in the driveway until it gets hot. Then shut it off, wait a couple minutes, and try to start it again.
If it doesn't start, replace the ICM with the new one, and then try to reproduce the problem again. If you cannot, then it was definitely the ICM.
Is the stutter like it's out of gas, or is it like all the cylinders just start misfiring at the same time? Would you even be able to tell the difference?
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge you can attach to the fuel rail to verify pressure when the issue occurs? What about a test lead to make sure you're getting spark? If not, I'd suggest finding some to borrow, or for cheap at Harbor Freight, and trying to reproduce the issue without driving it somewhere to get stranded, if possible. Harbor Freight does have a cheapish spark plug test lead you could plug in between the coil and distributor to verify if it's the coil failing to provide spark. That will point at it likely being an electronic problem, and you can then check further if it's the ICM, coil, ECM, or distributor. I don't know if they have a cheap fuel pressure gauge that screws on to the fuel rail though.
easiest way to know. carry a can of "Quick start in the car. if it will not start, spray some quick start into the throttle body, if it starts, it's a fuel problem, if it doesn't it's electrical. By the way, I have a ECM in the closet if you need to go that route. (1986 2.8 / automatic)
Is your fuel tank full, half, 1/4? I'm just saying make sure its full before looking for more probs.
Roughly at a half tank now. 100% of everything in the tank is new, filter, pump, rubber lines, gaskets ect ect... It's not gas level problem, as mentioned above, sitting for a half hour, the car started and I drove it 6 miles home.
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Originally posted by dobey:
Go to O'Reilly's or wherever you go locally, and get another ICM................Let the car idle in the driveway until it gets hot. Then shut it off, wait a couple minutes, and try to start it again. If it doesn't start, replace the ICM with the new one, and then try to reproduce the problem again. If you cannot, then it was definitely the ICM.
I will give that a try, and a good place to start. I don't have the money right now to buy tons of new parts without even knowing if that's the problem or not (distributor, coil, ECM ect...) but one can always use a spare module! The ICM in the car now is new (less than 100 miles on it), but you never know.
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Originally posted by dobey: Is the stutter like it's out of gas, or is it like all the cylinders just start misfiring at the same time? Would you even be able to tell the difference?
Yes, there is no misfire that I could hear or feel or any misfire type shuddering... it is as if anything runs out of gas.. a car, go kart, ATV ect, momentary hesitation, then recovers, a few times, spudders and then dies.
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Originally posted by dobey: Do you have a fuel pressure gauge you can attach to the fuel rail to verify pressure when the issue occurs? What about a test lead to make sure you're getting spark?
No, but when we changed the fuel pump, mechanic checked the pressure and it was perfect. When I have the problem, I CAN hear the fuel pump engage when I turn the key to the ON position, and can see the voltage gauge blip up a notch when the pump turns off a few seconds later as well.
As for spark, I will check that the next time this happens.
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Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:
easiest way to know. carry a can of "Quick start in the car. if it will not start, spray some quick start into the throttle body, if it starts, it's a fuel problem, if it doesn't it's electrical. By the way, I have a ECM in the closet if you need to go that route. (1986 2.8 / automatic)
Didn't think of that off hand, I have some brake cleaner I will toss in the trunk as part of my "diagnostic equipment"
Mine is also a 86 2.8 auto....What are you asking for it?
And MANY thanks to everyone helping me to diagnose this!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-03-2014).]
Read the thread.... he seems to be having a power issue. I have power at all times, and no problems there. I have new cables, new ignition in the steering column, all new relays on the entire car, the battery is a heavy duty one, and less than a week old.
While the pressure at the fuel rail was good when you installed the new pump, and you can hear the fuel pump running, it doesn't mean the pressure (and fuel) are necessarily making it all the way to the injectors. If it is a fuel problem, and not electrical, it could be the FPR causing an issue (not sure how exactly it would cause this though), and the fuel could be getting bypassed back through the return line, at the regulator.
Another thing you could do when it happens, is carry a pair of mechanics gloves, spark plug socket, ratchet, and short extension. Pull a plug, and check the condition. Or just pull some plugs and check the condition now. If there's no fuel, it should be reasonably obvious at the electrode, as it arcs and doesn't burn anything. Likewise, no spark but fuel, and you should have a relatively wet electrode, from the fuel splashing it.
Oh. How are ground straps and battery cables? Any missing or have any damage or corrosion on connections?
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 09-03-2014).]
Ill agree its the ignition module (or heat compound or connector) thats bad. Thats exactly what they do when they are going out. It will run perfectly all day then just randomly quit. May or may not immediately restart and run fine again. I ALWAYS tell anyone with a V6 to always carry a spare module AND the tools needed to change it. It only takes a few minutes on the side of the road to swap. If you test one, have them run the test at least 3 times. Ive had quite a few that were no good that tested fine. Ive also had brand new ones out of the box fail to work. Ive had worse luck with OEM Delco Remy than aftermarket ones myself and theyre 3 times as much.
My 2 cents John - not a fuel issue - its electrical. Had a similar issue with an 86 Auto - same as yours in some respect. Drive it somewhere, shut it off then no restart - spit and sputter some times as well. This one would also die while cruising along. Acting like it was out of fuel but in reality, it was a bad connection in the pigtail from the coil to the dizzy and either had poor spark or no spark. Sometimes, I could simply "wiggle" the plugs and it would fire right off - other times, I would unplug all the connectors and then plug them back in - fire right off. Took me a while to figure it out - 3 or 4 ICM's and a lot of frustration. Just out of the blue one day, I swapped the pig tail from the coil to the dizzy from another Fiero. Problem solved. I have carried an extra pig tail in every Fiero I've owned since then and had its happened on an 88 and another 86. Good luck.
I might as well add my 2 cents. My 86 2.8 4 spd cut off on me while cruising to Ski-Times house to pick up some speakers...years ago. Suddenly the engine shut off instantly while moving at 45 mph or so. My instinct is to look for a safe place to roll to safety so I did. I shut off the key and restarted the engine with no problems. Upon a safe trip back home I investigated the usual items and all seemed okay. I figured it was ignition related so I followed the wires from the ICM and into the ECM behind the rear glove box. I believe the suspect wire was a white wire.
With engine running I wiggled the wires on the clip that the ICM lead me to and sure enough the engine hesitated. If I pushed the wire left or right, forget which direction, & held it in that position the engine would shut off. To solve the problem I removed that wire from the clip and bent the pin so as to apply more contact pressure once it was put back in.
That took care of it. And this car had less than 60k on it at the time and the harness and clips looked brand new. Take a peek, you never know.
Also as mentioned previously by others during a heat soak the engine temp rises higher before it starts to cool down. I've had coils stop working during a heat soak. Make sure the hidden blower in the trunk is working & blowing air thru the duct at the coil while the radiator fan is running.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 09-03-2014).]
I had an 85 Caddy that did the exact same thing, took me 2 mos. to catch it bad ICM. Caddys had self diag and I caught it as my wife was driving and got a loss of ign signal code. Not a storable code so that once the engine started again it would clear the code. Replaced the ICM and never had the problem again.
Wow, information overload I will do some testing this weekend and try to narrow it down. From this thread, there are certainly 30 different things it could be. I will start with the most obvious and easiest, and work my way down the list.
By the way, I have a ECM in the closet if you need to go that route. (1986 2.8 / automatic)
What would you like for it, that would be a good place to start, and then swap out the ICM next. The thing I hate about changing the ICM, is having to time the car again. It is timed and running just perfectly now...
What would you like for it, that would be a good place to start, and then swap out the ICM next. The thing I hate about changing the ICM, is having to time the car again. It is timed and running just perfectly now...
You shouldnt have to time the car again after changing the ignition control module.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-04-2014).]
Yeah, you don't have to reset the timing after swapping the ICM. It's a stationary piece that you're replacing, and you don't need to rotate the distributor to do it.
Yep, take off the cap, unplug connector, take out 2 screws....reverse to install (being sure to use heat compound). I can do it faster now than you can fill your gas tank....
Thanks Jason and dobey.... I wasn't thinking clearly this morning! I know it's under the distributor, but I was thinking I had to rotate it or something to remove it.
I got out of work early, picked up a $50 module on the way home. I have Dialectic grease I use on Computer CPU's, the good silver stuff. I let the car run in the driveway till it got up to around 240 degrees, with the deck lid closed, and it fires right up. I will try again in about 10 minutes, as if I went into a store, get something and came back out. That is when it seems to happen mostly.
It's worthwhile repeating that dielectric grease is not the same thing as heatsink compound. Hopefully you have the correct stuff there.
I am in IT and build computers all the time, and it's the same stuff used on CPU's as on ICM or any chip to transfer heat away. Anyhow, the module came with a packet of grease, and I just used that.
Ok, went back outside, and the car wouldn't start. I pulled the distributor and changed the module, put it back together, and it fired right up. Total time about 17 minutes. I let it run to get back up temperature, as it lost about 20 degrees in the time it was off. I then turned it back off, and It started right back up, as it did the first time. Now to let it sit again for about 10-15 minutes and see if it will do it again.
I sure how this is it.... I HATE trouble shooting things like this! When a water pump goes, you just replace it, when a fuel pump goes you replace it.... problems like this you start replacing all sorts of stuff till you find it!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-04-2014).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I sure how this is it.... I HATE trouble shooting things like this! When a water pump goes, you just replace it, when a fuel pump goes you replace it.... problems like this you start replacing all sorts of stuff till you find it!
The trick is to find it before you start replacing stuff.
So far so good! I let it sit 10 minutes and it started right up, 5 minutes later still started. I then let it run to get to temperature again, and let it sit for another 15 minutes and it started right up. I will do this a few more times, as it is far easier to deal with in the driveway then some random location of it's choosing in Palm Beach County! LOL
I also took note, that when the cooling fan kicked on at temperature, the blower in the trunk also kicked on and was blowing air on the coil.
Lastly, the module that was in there was white.... never saw that before. Just says "Made in Hong Kong" on it.. of course!
I went with a "BWD Ignition Control Module", as the A/C Delco was not in stock, and I have heard that even the OEM ones can be hit and miss.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-04-2014).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I went with a "BWD Ignition Control Module", as the A/C Delco was not in stock, and I have heard that even the OEM ones can be hit and miss.
They're all pretty hit and miss these days. I wonder how long they've been sitting on the shelf at the parts store…
Ok, I have cycled this a few times now, and it seems to always start now. Sometimes I have to crank for like 2 seconds, let off and try again, but it does fire. When the car is cold, it will start with the lightest tap of the key.
Well.... here I sit after the car died, and I coasted into a BP gas station. Car will not start, but tries to kick just a tiny bIt when cranking. Also, filled the gas tank 8.2 miles ago.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 09-04-2014).]
