Yeah man you're right; I'll believe it when I see it, but for now it looks like it's legit. Figured it would be good Thanksgiving news if people don't frequent the mall very often and didn't see the thread there.
Only time will tell, and January is coming fast. The more hype the better, and if there is a part to be hyped about getting reproduced it's for GT tail lights. I know the guy in charge has been very sick, so we will see...
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
There are far too many dreamers with good intentions but no idea what they are getting into when it comes to making custom parts and kits. Hopefully it is legit, but not much to get excited about until it is actually finished and tested. I have build tail lens and headlight molds, and I can tell you it is very complex and expensive to do it properly. Not something a backyard fabricator will be able to pull off
This type of project will get easier and less expensive to do as time and technology progress.
Uhh NO it really doesn't. I've been a design engineer working with all forms of mechanical parts (plastics, die-castings, sheet metal stampings) for the pas couple decades and nothing has gotten cheaper over time.
Before anyone responds with "but 3D printing is going to solve this" needs to see some actual samples of rapid prototype parts made in any of the different 3D printers. I deal with rapid prototype parts all the time and 3D printing is the least accurate method for making rapid prototype parts. I need to order rapid prototypes all the time and I never get anything made in a 3D printer because those parts are barely passable as show-and-tell parts. That technology has many years to go before it can deliver on the "promises" being made today about it.
Originally posted by lateFormula: Uhh NO it really doesn't. I've been a design engineer working with all forms of mechanical parts (plastics, die-castings, sheet metal stampings) for the pas couple decades and nothing has gotten cheaper over time.
Yes it will, and yes it has. (1) You aren't in China or any of the developing nations are you? (2) Chinese are making some excellent products, not just knock off junk. And this might be one of the fields I have at least a little knowledge of too.
quote
... 3D printing...That technology has many years to go before it can deliver on the "promises" being made today about it.
And this will happen too. Don't jump to the conclusion that someone was talking about 3D printing.
[B]Originally posted by mental Yes it will, and yes it has. (1) You aren't in China or any of the developing nations are you? (2) Chinese are making some excellent products, not just knock off junk. And this might be one of the fields I have at least a little knowledge of too.
yeah that new lead base paint they like to use is cutting edge, lmao
[This message has been edited by rcp builders (edited 11-28-2014).]
look, this guy is saying he is going to make them, he even has a price set. maybe i am a dreamer, but it was going to happen eventually, and maybe this is the guy to do it. no need to post negative crap about it until and only if he doesnt produce.
Originally posted by mental floss: Yes it will, and yes it has. (1) You aren't in China or any of the developing nations are you? (2) Chinese are making some excellent products, not just knock off junk. And this might be one of the fields I have at least a little knowledge of too.
I work for one of the largest tier one suppliers to the auto industry. About ten years ago our company wanted all tooling cut in China as a cost savings. Over the course of the following 4-5 years every tool my group had cut in China needed severe rework when it got to the molding shops here in North America, and this was also the experience of many of the groups in Europe. Our company had wound up spending much more on tooling than it ever would have cost to have them cut here in North America (or Europe) and if the tools had been cut in NA or Europe they would have made accurate parts from the very first shot. My company wound up telling all engineering groups worldwide that no production tools were to be made in China anymore. The problem my group had is that the Chinese suppliers/tool makers just did not have any understanding of GD&T. Our tooling experts would get into discussions with the Chinese suppliers about the controls indicated on drawings and the Chinese suppliers would always nod their heads and say "yes yes yes" even though they really did not understand the drawings. They just did not want to say no or appear to not be knowledgeable. It is a common cultural thing with the South East Asians.
look, this guy is saying he is going to make them, he even has a price set. maybe i am a dreamer, but it was going to happen eventually, and maybe this is the guy to do it. no need to post negative crap about it until and only if he doesnt produce.
Vette7584 is the one who posted this in The Mall, Good eye man, and thanks for posting it up originally!
If some of the guys here seem a little uneasy about this news, we cant blame them! I have been lurking around here long enough to know that there has been many people in the past that say they where going to make certain parts that are extremely needed to be reproduced only to fizzle out and vanish! One of the big things in question (besides the tooling that will apparently cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make crystal clear tail light lenses) about this news that comes to mind is Fierogtlt1, the guy that is putting this whole Fiero Plastics thing together has/had cancer... He is recovering well so far thankfully, but there is still question about what is going to happen somewhat I'd assume... We can all keep our fingers crossed that he not only continues to makes a full recovery, but hopefully that he can also really get this Fiero Plastics thing, including these tail lights together for the whole Fiero community... Having these reproduction tail light lenses back would make the Fiero a more collectible car in the long term. I have to admit what really brought me to the Fiero when I was a young kid in the early 90's was the glowing PONTIAC on the back. It obviously stuck with me because I bought one almost 17 years later... no other car comes to mind immediately with that effect...
Edit: Spelling error correction! Me nope spel two guhd! ------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
[This message has been edited by Shho13 (edited 11-28-2014).]
Are there regulatory issues with using reproductions of the original lenses?
I would guess that the new ones could NOT legally use the same DOT number as the originals.
Obviously, DOT doesn't come around and inspect your car, and most inspections stations wouldn't check that as long as it looks stock, so it may not matter in the real world.
Let me explain to you why this will not work LONG TERM.
He wants to POUR the lenses. That means a very brittle lens, a lot of wasted time and possibly material on his end trying to ensure that there are no air bubbles in the final part, the fact that there really is no way to efficiently reproduce the laminate other than black paint. While sitting in the Arizona heat or the Wisconsin snow, the material could get very unstable and crack while you are simply washing the car or drying the lenses. I applaud Todd for trying this but it may be more of a customer complaint issue for him in the long run.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 11-28-2014).]
I am not doing that way......The lens came out way to brittle and they will be made by vacuum forming instead.The black plastic P O NT I A C part will be cast from high quality plastic resin separately.Then the lens and the P O N T I A C black plastic part will be joined together making it one piece.The clear lens will be vacuum formed with either Polycarbonate or Lexan.
[This message has been edited by fierogtlt1 (edited 11-28-2014).]
I am not doing that way......The lens came out way to brittle and they will be made by vacuum forming instead.The black plastic P O NT I A C part will be cast from high quality plastic resin separately.Then the lens and the P O N T I A C black plastic part will be joined together making it one piece.The clear lens will be vacuum formed with either Polycarbonate or Lexan.
Thats a LOT of work for you. Hopefully everything works out ok.
I work for one of the largest tier one suppliers to the auto industry. About ten years ago our company wanted all tooling cut in China as a cost savings. Over the course of the following 4-5 years every tool my group had cut in China needed severe rework when it got to the molding shops here in North America, and this was also the experience of many of the groups in Europe. Our company had wound up spending much more on tooling than it ever would have cost to have them cut here in North America (or Europe) and if the tools had been cut in NA or Europe they would have made accurate parts from the very first shot. My company wound up telling all engineering groups worldwide that no production tools were to be made in China anymore. The problem my group had is that the Chinese suppliers/tool makers just did not have any understanding of GD&T. Our tooling experts would get into discussions with the Chinese suppliers about the controls indicated on drawings and the Chinese suppliers would always nod their heads and say "yes yes yes" even though they really did not understand the drawings. They just did not want to say no or appear to not be knowledgeable. It is a common cultural thing with the South East Asians.
Then your company's management failed in performance of project management. And 10 yrs ago is a long time in emerging manufacturing nations.
Don't most of all the plastic and electronic gadgets functioning in your house say MADE IN CHINA? Of course they do. And they're from China because it's cheaper to do it there. I've witnessed personally, a local man (who only graduated high school) redesign import car heads in his step father's machine shop and had them cast in China with the newest equipment. They've set and held multiple performance records. Caterpillar has their heavy equipment heads cast in India and shipped to his business for final machining. Caterpillar hasn't failed at project management either. Twenty years ago sectional tire molds were expensive to manufacture so only premium tire lines used them. Now most Chinese tires coming on the market are sectional molds.
These things will get easier and cheaper to do. It's luxury creep, like auto trans, air conditioning and remote starting vehicles.
I am not doing that way......The lens came out way to brittle and they will be made by vacuum forming instead.The black plastic P O NT I A C part will be cast from high quality plastic resin separately.Then the lens and the P O N T I A C black plastic part will be joined together making it one piece.The clear lens will be vacuum formed with either Polycarbonate or Lexan.
I have been following your work on the center console skeleton for a couple years now, and you have always been "just a month or so" away from having them available for sale. Did you finish that, or stop working on it to produce the tail light lenses now?
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-28-2014).]
Sorry I stopped working on everything since I startd the Chemotherapy and Radiation treatments the last 4 months for Head and neck cancer,bone cancer and liver cancer.....So it was not a priority compared to that.. As seen in this thread..
Are there regulatory issues with using reproductions of the original lenses?
I would guess that the new ones could NOT legally use the same DOT number as the originals.
Obviously, DOT doesn't come around and inspect your car, and most inspections stations wouldn't check that as long as it looks stock, so it may not matter in the real world.
I don't think that the DOT will be much of an issue... I believe it is for the tail light housing assembly, and light being a certain brightness as to be bright enough to see, in a certain position, yet not too bright to blind people. Technically the factory tail lights are the only DOT rated tail light assembly for the Fiero. According to what I read in The PDF SEMA article found under the lighting section here, third paragraph on the second page, once the car is in the possession of a consumer, federal law does not regulate equipment that may be installed on the vehicle. I am sure there are some grey areas for the law though. I am no lawyer!!!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Sorry I stopped working on everything since I startd the Chemotherapy and Radiaqtion treatments the last 4 months for Head and neck cancer,bone cancer and liver cancer.....So it was not a priority compared to that.. As seen in this thread..
No apologies needed. Work for you has a taken on a whole new purpose and nothing should take precedence over that. Best of success to you.
I have been following your work on the center console skeleton for a couple years now, and you have always been "just a month or so" away from having them available for sale. Did you finish that, or stop working on it to produce the tail light lenses now?
yeah what he said. I love the fiero communities enthusiasm but I think people get caught up when they find something new to them like a resin. They think out Of there basement there going to start producing high quality reproduction parts. You may have molded a great replica of 1 piece of the puzzle but a production ready part you haven't. G/L with your health and your endeavors but I'm not holding out a lot of hope.
We believe you! Feel better man; so far so good! Hopefully you get to a point soon that you can finally get your Fiero business going strong! I can't wait for your tail light lenses in January; I know what I am gonna do with my tax return!!!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Shho13: I don't think that the DOT will be much of an issue... I believe it is for the tail light housing assembly, and light being a certain brightness as to be bright enough to see, in a certain position, yet not too bright to blind people. Technically the factory tail lights are the only DOT rated tail light assembly for the Fiero. According to what I read in The PDF SEMA article found under the lighting section here, third paragraph on the second page, once the car is in the possession of a consumer, federal law does not regulate equipment that may be installed on the vehicle. I am sure there are some grey areas for the law though. I am no lawyer!!!
I'm not sure what paragraph you're actually referring to there. On the second page of the Standard No. 108 PDF, I see the third item in a list clarifying the definition of Application as used in the document, stating that the standard does apply to replacement equipment. Federal Law doesn't somehow no longer apply once you buy a car. Replacement equipment on the car must be road legal and meet the requirements of Federal, State, and Local laws. The only way those laws don't apply, is if the vehicle is not registered for use on public roads, and is an off-road only vehicle.
As far as the DOT is concerned, any replacement lenses do need to meet the same requirements as the original lenses, and should have the DOT stamp as well (unless of course they do not meet the DOT standards).
Rodney is the expert at knowing what it takes to reproduce reproduction parts, especially improved ones.
You realize he mostly just designs the parts and then finds a decent supplier that can manufacture them with proper QA, right? And that some of his reproduction parts are in fact, made in Taiwan.
I'm not sure what paragraph you're actually referring to there. On the second page of the Standard No. 108 PDF, I see the third item in a list clarifying the definition of Application as used in the document, stating that the standard does apply to replacement equipment. Federal Law doesn't somehow no longer apply once you buy a car. Replacement equipment on the car must be road legal and meet the requirements of Federal, State, and Local laws. The only way those laws don't apply, is if the vehicle is not registered for use on public roads, and is an off-road only vehicle.
As far as the DOT is concerned, any replacement lenses do need to meet the same requirements as the original lenses, and should have the DOT stamp as well (unless of course they do not meet the DOT standards).
The realistic view is that GT lenses will not be available anytime soon. First question is how many do you make and how many of these will be sold? How many GT owners actually need new tail light lenses? Say you even sell 100, will that even pay for the tooling cost? I'd like to see them being made again but I can't see this happening. I hope that I am wrong.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The realistic view is that GT lenses will not be available anytime soon. First question is how many do you make and how many of these will be sold? How many GT owners actually need new tail light lenses? Say you even sell 100, will that even pay for the tooling cost? I'd like to see them being made again but I can't see this happening. I hope that I am wrong.
I think the fact that delaminated and not even perfect NOS lenses sell on ebay for $600+ every once and awhile is proof how there is a huge demand for them. I know that I want two pairs, granted I won't buy two right off the bat, I will see how they hold up in the elements first.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Shho13: I think the fact that delaminated and not even perfect NOS lenses sell on ebay for $600+ every once and awhile is proof how there is a huge demand for them. I know that I want two pairs, granted I won't buy two right off the bat, I will see how they hold up in the elements first.
Rather, it shows lack of supply. There aren't really that many Fieros on the road still, and most of them aren't fastbacks. There are a very small number of people who are creating any demand for the fastback tail light lenses, and reproductions aren't OEM parts. Unless the reproduction part is very high quality on par with OEM, the demand will still be for the OEM parts over the reproduction. And if the reproduction retail price is lower than what people are currently paying for OEM lights, it's very probable that the cost of production is too great to sell them.
Everyone says they want to see the parts made, but very few people will actually pay for the parts at the amount they will sell for, or in some cases, even what they would cost to make.
Originally posted by Shho13: Like I said I am no lawyer, but the paragraph I was referring to is this one: http://i.imgur.com/0qyoj1b.jpg
Maybe you should have linked directly to a PDF then. I went to the page you linked, searched for the words you stated, and got a very different document from the one in that screen shot.
However, what that highlighted paragraph says, is it is a violation of Federal Law to produce and sell parts that do not meet the regulatory standards for those parts as applied at the factory.
The go to reasoning around here seems to be that there simply isn't a demand for GT tail light lenses since there aren't many left on the road. I don't understand how that equates to not enough sales to justify reproducing them. According to how he says he is going to be making them it clearly doesn't cost $100,000 as it was originally thought. Will the quality be the same? Who knows? Its at least worth a shot.
Man, there sure is a lot of bickering going on over good news. I don't know it is pure reality, or if its just people being grumpy and pessimistic. How on earth are we going to keep the Fiero preserved for the next generation? Reproducing parts. Who is going to do it? Whoever has the means and ability to do so. Is it a good business move realistically? No. Is it a nitch market? Yes. All car restoration businesses have the same risk.
Let's take a Chevy Chevelle, or Nova, or even an El Camino. There hasn't been a brand new one built in decades, yet they are out there, many of them restored! Do you see a different one every day? No. Where do the parts come from to restore them? Both luck in finding one somewhere in a junkyard, someone parting out, or a reproduction part! Same goes for the Fiero. While clearly there isn't a following for the Fiero as the chevelle or Nova, its still a very niche market all the same.
We have the Fiero Store, we have Rodney, as well as many others making reproduction parts, and they are all still around making parts for our baby.
Reality check guys: problems like constant complaining, constant bickering and pessimism splt the community, and a split community is not a strong one. Ive been a part of many forums, online descussions, and blogs and many have fizzled out and died. Why? Im seeing it right here. Traffic is declining and the future of the Fiero is fading fast. What can we do to stop it? Why don't we start at being happy that someone is finally taking the initiative to step up and make a much needed part. All this "its not gonna work its gonna fail there is no demand" is bringing me down. Why should I continue my own GT restoration with all this constant trash talk?
Also, thank you for clearing that article up for me... I didn't link it directly because it was a file, and I didn't know if it was against the rules. Most forums I frequent have a thing against attachments!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
The go to reasoning around here seems to be that there simply isn't a demand for GT tail light lenses since there aren't many left on the road. I don't understand how that equates to not enough sales to justify reproducing them. According to how he says he is going to be making them it clearly doesn't cost $100,000 as it was originally thought. Will the quality be the same? Who knows? Its at least worth a shot.
Man, there sure is a lot of bickering going on over good news. I don't know it is pure reality, or if its just people being grumpy and pessimistic. How on earth are we going to keep the Fiero preserved for the next generation? Reproducing parts. Who is going to do it? Whoever has the means and ability to do so. Is it a good business move realistically? No. Is it a nitch market? Yes. All car restoration businesses have the same risk.
Let's take a Chevy Chevelle, or Nova, or even an El Camino. There hasn't been a brand new one built in decades, yet they are out there, many of them restored! Do you see a different one every day? No. Where do the parts come from to restore them? Both luck in finding one somewhere in a junkyard, someone parting out, or a reproduction part! Same goes for the Fiero. While clearly there isn't a following for the Fiero as the chevelle or Nova, its still a very niche market all the same.
We have the Fiero Store, we have Rodney, as well as many others making reproduction parts, and they are all still around making parts for our baby.
Reality check guys: problems like constant complaining, constant bickering and pessimism splt the community, and a split community is not a strong one. Ive been a part of many forums, online descussions, and blogs and many have fizzled out and died. Why? Im seeing it right here. Traffic is declining and the future of the Fiero is fading fast. What can we do to stop it? Why don't we start at being happy that someone is finally taking the initiative to step up and make a much needed part. All this "its not gonna work its gonna fail there is no demand" is bringing me down. Why should I continue my own GT restoration with all this constant trash talk?
Also, thank you for clearing that article up for me... I didn't link it directly because it was a file, and I didn't know if it was against the rules. Most forums I frequent have a thing against attachments!
I can't agree with you more...It just seems that most of the people on here are negative about any ideas members have to help improve the Fiero hobby for some reason.
I can't agree with you more...It just seems that most of the people on here are negative about any ideas members have to help improve the Fiero hobby for some reason.
I guess most people have a hard time believing that it will be done or accomplished.
Many folks have tried and there was always a dead end or excuse they couldn't go further.
Either money, health, or some vendor manager, employee taking the expertise got sick, died, got cancer, or etc. The final outcome was it never came through.
The 2 main parts on the 86-88 Fiero GT that need to be reproduced are the tail lamps and the GT windows.
Its sad for the fiero store that they should of made a huge batch of GT taillights. Why are they sold out?? Because, it was a hot seller, and that proves it was in high demand. ------------------
I can't wait for your tail light lenses in January; I know what I am gonna do with my tax return!!!
