Originally posted by dobey: I guess my Cruze Eco was a sports car too then. It has more power and better handling than a Fiero. It also has 4 doors, car seat anchor rings, ample trunk space, lots of air bags, anti-lock brakes, traction control, and I got up to 48 MPG on the highway with it.
Just wanted to weigh-in on this little argument that you two were having. (Sorry to take the thread back off topic again )
I've always viewed the term "sports car" really to have very little to do with specific performance numbers. To me, the term refers to the feel or "spirit" of a car. Think back to the old European sports cars (MGB, Triumph, Austin-Healey, Jag, etc). There are many "family" cars that will blow away these sports cars, but the inner essence of a true sports car will always shine. I will happily say that the GM engineers had always intended the Fiero to be a sports car, it was only because of management that it's performance was toned down so it could be considered a daily commuter.
Both the front and rear suspensions of the Fiero have been enhanced. Front suspension changes include:
* Elimination of the front steering damper assembly * 30% shorter spindle length (90 vs 64 mm) * 30% shorter scrub radius (49 to 35 mm) * 20% reduction in king pin angel (7.5 to 6 degrees) * 20% longer upper control arm length (177 to 214.2 mm) * 25% longer lower control arm length (280 to 350 mm) * Larger stabilizer bar (22 mm to 28 mm) * 12% shorter turning radius (11.4 to 10.2 m)
Rear suspension changes include:
* Revised chasis cradle design for suspension attachments * New tri-link design allowing for specific tuning of each component * Increased rearward rear wheel motion with jounce for reducted impact harshness * Lower spring rates (44 to 25 N/mm) * Inclusion of 22 mm stabilizer bar with WS6 suspension package
This is the changes from the 87 to 88 suspension. As I recall GM told the engineers to use off the shelf parts for the 84-87 suspension (Chevet suspension parts). In 88 they spent 30 million dollars to develope the suspension for the 88 and was said the be comparable to the corvette suspension (back then). Prior to 88 the rear springs would clank together when you went over a speed bump. The fix they suggested for this was to take a garden hose the cut it to wrap it around the springs.
I had an 86 SE originally and whan I test drove the 88, the difference was night and day. I traded in the 86 to get the 88GT which I still own (original owner all these years). Hope this helps you.
[This message has been edited by Larry Nakamura (edited 01-07-2015).]
Originally posted by Larry Nakamura: I had an 86 SE originally and whan I test drove the 88, the difference was night and day. I traded in the 86 to get the 88GT which I still own (original owner all these years). Hope this helps you.
88GT also has more options and includes a WS6 package from what I can gather. 86SE didn't come with WS6. Im sure it was in fact a difference but "night and day?" Guess everyone has their own opinion.
According to Gary Witzenburg's book (page 76), the '86 SE's came standard with Y99, but then the standard engine for the SE was the four cylinder. If you opted for the available V6 in an SE, then it automatically came with the WS6 suspension.
I am just checking as my friend told me there is a difference and I am preparing myself and getting parts ready for restoring my Fiero.
Thanks!
With regards to this question, essentially 84-87 are interchangeable and 88 is unique. There are exceptions, but if you follow that rule of thumb that should cover most bases. WS6 vs Y99 or base suspension did have different springs or maybe shocks, etc., but when buying rebuild parts you're not going to be buying OEM WS6 shocks, so the difference is lost. New technology parts are going to be better anyway. (KYB or Koni over OEM AC Delco shocks, etc.)
Brakes are also different on 88. Your safest bet is to consider everything 88 unique, and all other years share a common design.
Hmmm. I thought my '86SE had WS6. Anyone who can check their RPO codes & verify?
I certainly notice the steering & bump steer improvements in my '88.
I've never driven a 88, but I can say that the bump steer characteristic of my 86 was fairly severe when I got it - However - replacing the control arm bushings and mounting the cradle in with poly bushings made a huge difference.
I've never driven a 88, but I can say that the bump steer characteristic of my 86 was fairly severe when I got it - However - replacing the control arm bushings and mounting the cradle in with poly bushings made a huge difference.
Thank you! :-)
So according to what I have read here, I am considering putting GT or GT-like suspension in my SE Fiero as the chassis is in best condition on that one. I suppose there are also different mounts on 88 GT, am I right? I mean, I cant put 88 control arm to 84 without replacing the whole thing it is mounted to (sorry, I cannot explain myself well in english).
I have decided which chassis will be restored, but I havent made a decision on the suspension, yet, as I havent got enough of information..
88GT also has more options and includes a WS6 package from what I can gather. 86SE didn't come with WS6. Im sure it was in fact a difference but "night and day?" Guess everyone has their own opinion.
My 85 GT had the WS6. Pushed under power in turns, rattled teeth over bumps. My 86 SE had the heavy duty and ralley sport suspension options. Better handling and ride under all circumstances than the 85 GT. My Formula also has the WS6. Entirely different animal than either of the earlier cars. Excellent ride quality and the handling is in an entirely different universe.
My 85 GT had the WS6. Pushed under power in turns, rattled teeth over bumps. My 86 SE had the heavy duty and ralley sport suspension options. Better handling and ride under all circumstances than the 85 GT. Both cars were V6/4 speeds. My Formula also has the WS6. Entirely different animal than either of the earlier cars. Excellent ride quality and the handling is in an entirely different universe. Formula has 4.9/4T60E.
Oops! Wrong button.
Edited for drivetrain information.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 01-07-2015).]
According to Gary Witzenburg's book (page 76), the '86 SE's came standard with Y99, but then the standard engine for the SE was the four cylinder. If you opted for the available V6 in an SE, then it automatically came with the WS6 suspension.
That does not match up with my observations on my car, or several of the cars I have worked on. Perhaps it was only available as an option if the V6 was ordered.
88GT also has more options and includes a WS6 package from what I can gather. 86SE didn't come with WS6. Im sure it was in fact a difference but "night and day?" Guess everyone has their own opinion.
WS6 was a suspension option on all years of Fiero. Every Fiero I've ever owned has had it. They were all GTs, and all 85-87 cars. There are very few options that were 88 only, but WS6 isn't one of them.
WS6 was a suspension option on all years of Fiero. Every Fiero I've ever owned has had it. They were all GTs, and all 85-87 cars. There are very few options that were 88 only, but WS6 isn't one of them.
So all GT's came standard with WS6, but the other's had the option? I never knew. Is it rare for an 84' to have the WS6?
So all GT's came standard with WS6, but the other's had the option? I never knew. Is it rare for an 84' to have the WS6?
I don't know about all years but in 88 you got WS6 standard on GT and Formula and it was not available on the coupe. There are many options that are tied together. WS6 may have it's own RPO code, but that doesn't necessarily mean it could be selected on a non-GT. (maybe, I don't know)
So according to what I have read here, I am considering putting GT or GT-like suspension in my SE Fiero as the chassis is in best condition on that one. I suppose there are also different mounts on 88 GT, am I right? I mean, I cant put 88 control arm to 84 without replacing the whole thing it is mounted to (sorry, I cannot explain myself well in english).
I have decided which chassis will be restored, but I havent made a decision on the suspension, yet, as I havent got enough of information..
What do you mean by "chassis?" If you're rebuilding the suspension, much of what you have will be replaced anyway. No, you can't easily put 88 parts on a non 88. It can be done with fabrication but things mount differently, dimensions are different. Even the engine cradle is different. The struts in the rear mount in a different location. They can be overcome. Some people have put an entire 88 rear cradle with 88 suspension in pre-88 cars. If you have an 88 to rebuild and want the 88 suspension, that would be FAR easier than trying to retrofit stuff onto an earlier year.
What cars do you have to work with and what condition are they in?
What do you mean by "chassis?" If you're rebuilding the suspension, much of what you have will be replaced anyway. No, you can't easily put 88 parts on a non 88. It can be done with fabrication but things mount differently, dimensions are different. Even the engine cradle is different. The struts in the rear mount in a different location. They can be overcome. Some people have put an entire 88 rear cradle with 88 suspension in pre-88 cars. If you have an 88 to rebuild and want the 88 suspension, that would be FAR easier than trying to retrofit stuff onto an earlier year.
What cars do you have to work with and what condition are they in?
Okay, so I will build that 84 SE. That one is in best condition, considering the others. Is not after an accident nor has been used for parts previously, which both of my GTs, 86 and 88, has. All it needs to run is engine replacement, which I believe I have one functional (or should be able to build one from three 2,8 engines I have). If driveable, I will begin to replace suspension parts with new ones. I just needed to know whether I could put in GT parts. If you say I cannot put GT parts in non-GT vehicle without a lot of useless work done, I will consider it as a final decision :-)
Originally posted by xaver: Okay, so I will build that 84 SE. That one is in best condition, considering the others. Is not after an accident nor has been used for parts previously, which both of my GTs, 86 and 88, has. All it needs to run is engine replacement, which I believe I have one functional (or should be able to build one from three 2,8 engines I have). If driveable, I will begin to replace suspension parts with new ones. I just needed to know whether I could put in GT parts. If you say I cannot put GT parts in non-GT vehicle without a lot of useless work done, I will consider it as a final decision :-)
Thank you all for help
The 84 has no provisions for the V6, so it will be a lot more work to swap in the GT parts to the 84 chassis. You'll want to use the cradle from the 86. You'll probably want to swap the headlights from the 88, to get the second generation motors, if you still have them. Most of the parts from the 86 should be boltable to the 84 with little problem. The suspension on the 88, including the cradle, is a fair bit different, so if you want to use those parts it will be a lot more work.
Also, the 86 and 88 engines are a bit different. The 88 is a bit better, so I'd suggest using as much from it as possible. You'll also want to change the wiring to the wiring from the newer car as well, and probably swap in the GT gauge cluster and center dash pieces, to get all the GT gauges.
You can use the 86gt parts as bolt in parts on a 84. The 88 cradle can be used in a 84 if you modify the strut towers and use coil overs. The rest of the cradle bolts in. The 88 front suspension can be used with much more cutting and welding.
For clarification....... Any pre-88 GT suspension part can be installed on any pre-88, and any 88 GT part can be installed on any 88. Installing 88 rear suspension parts on a pre-88 requires installing an 88 rear cradle in the pre-88. It is not a hard or complicated project. Installing 88 front suspension parts on a pre-88 requires installing the 88 front cross member into the pre-88. It is a difficult project.
An old thread but it's the closest I could find for my question.
What is the difference in the 84 cradle, compared to 85-87 cradles? Any mods like motor mount holes needed to mount a V6 ?
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An old thread but it's the closest I could find for my question.
What is the difference in the 84 cradle, compared to 85-87 cradles? Any mods like motor mount holes needed to mount a V6 ?
IIRC, the transmission mounting holes are in the same location. You may need to do some work on the passenger side engine mount. The damper used on the V-6 (85-87) on the passenger front should be easily mounted by drilling and tapping holes in the cradle front cross member. The 84 wiring harness doesn't support the V-6, and the wiring bundle below the rear window is not in a good place when using a V-6.
The over all differences of an 84-87 vs. an 88 isn't a HUGE difference, how ever the one I drove seemed to turn easier and didn't pull my arm out of socket when I went on awful roads, that tend to make my 86GT swerve into the crevices of the road.
My 86 Fiero seemed to have a better ride than the 88 Formula I drove but comparing 25+ year old car's are irrelevant. The 88's do handle better but if you swap in some Koni shocks and struts, they will come close.
The difference is pretty close to night and day if both have been properly aligned. From what I’ve seen, many chassis are very poorly aligned. The 88 is much easier to drive confidently.
The 88 suspension was not designed by Lotus, despite whatever BS you have been told to that effect. It was designed by GM. If you want to look for Lotus involvement in domestic GM products, then the 89 Corvette ZR1 is where that development happened, resulting in the release of the production ZR1 in 1990.
I said it was far better. I didn't say it was perfect, or a sports car. I said it was closer to being a sports car.
And just because the 88 suspension is better, doesn't mean you will necessarily be able to tell the difference in the driver seat. A simple drive doesn't show you the engineering changes that were made. The suspension is far better, but the geometry is still almost exactly the same as previous years.
That's a common story about the 88 suspension. I won't vote ether way but look closely at the geometry of the front end and you'll see that it has Chapman written all over it. I'm not so sure about the rear. It's very nice but not really him.
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