I remember when I ran a Holley 390 on my 2.8 what a nightmare that was. Between tuning it (and keeping it tuned) and trying to keep the float system working properly (being mounted sideways to its normal orientation), I became an expert on Holley carbs. When I was picking parts for my small block I knew to stay away from Holley and decided instead on a 700 CFM Edelbrock Performer. Now I'm second guessing that and was hoping I could get some feedback about what some of you have run and what the experience was. Particularly on hard cornering, since that's where the real issues came in with the Holley. I used every kind of baffle and trick to keep from either: A) starving the metering block, or B) sloshing gas out of the vent tube directly into the throat of the carb. Nothing helped much. And yes, I know an injection setup of some sort would be superior, and it's an option. I'm actually going to call a couple of guys about used aftermarket setups, but I doubt what they have for sale will support 400+ HP. I already have the intake and carb, so I'd like to run those at least for a while.....I guess depending on the feedback I get in response to the question.
You can't go wrong with an Edelbrock; bolts on right out of the box and requires very little tuning.
Personally, I went the the Thunder Series 650 CFM AVS setup for my mildly built Vortec SBC. It has adjustable vacuum secondary's and provides characteristics of a manual secondary carburetor, which is perfect for a lighter weight/low-geared V8 Fiero. CFM wise, don't go too big... it's all about getting the right air/fuel mixture velocity, not mass. I may have even bought a 600 CFM AVS if they actually made one. Here's an easy/fun little tool to find out your engine's CFM needs:
Edelbrock's are well known for their simplicity, reliability, streetability, and ease of tuning... not necessarily for all out performance. There are carbs out there that will outperform them on the track, but for the street, they fit the bill perfectly. If you don't mind spending more time testing, tuning and busting knuckles, a correctly tuned manual secondary carb would be ideal for maximum performance (and seat-of-the-pants fun) in a little V8 Fiero, unless maybe if you were running an automatic transmission.
The only thing I can't comment on is Edelbrock's ability to maintain flow while under heavy cornering, as I've never experienced this problem. It's been a while since I've read up on the subject, but I know some carbs have a worse reputation in this department than others. Usually though, if you are cornering hard enough to run a float bowl dry, your fuel pressure is too low and the carburetor is not to blame.
Edited for clarity... and correct grammar.
[This message has been edited by ITALGT (edited 01-31-2015).]
My car used to have a 600cfm Edelbrock that worked well, then I switched to a 625cfm Road demon as I read a lot of articles that said how good it was !!! what a pain in the butt that was, over the winter the gaskets dried up and so it leaked all over the place in the spring, I almost went back to an Edelbrock carb, but got a good deal on an Edelbrock pro-flow fuel injection system so I used that instead.
------------------ 84SE, aero body, 4 speed and an injected 355 V8
I stick with what I know and that is Holley. Once you understand it, it becomes easier the second time and you end up doing less of what you didn't really have to do the first time.
When I ran a carb, it was an edelbrock 600. Just get a wide band and the tuning kit for it and swapping jets or needles is a 5-10 minute operation.
The issue is if you dial idle and cruise to 14.5-15.0 and WOT to 12.0-13.0 on a 70 degree day, then on the 50 degree mornings (or cooler) it was lean and on the 90 degree days it was rich. Running a true cold air intake made it worse, but using a hot air intake made it better (air temp was more consistent). It was easy enough to change the needles, that I would swap them mid-day... but eventually that got old and I went fuel injected and never looked back.
This is what I run, it is a Holley 750 street hp. If you really are talking 400+ hp you really want to be running a mechanical secondary. the fiero is perfect for it i.e. 4 speed, light weight. I ran an edelbrock for a long time. the problem I had was if the car sat for say a week the bowls would drain and I would have to crank for long time till they filled and it fired. My street hp ran near perfect out of the box, when I hooked my wideband up it was real close. I did have to up the primary squirter for of idle hesitation. I also have put a piece of wire in my idle circuit to lean out idle a bit but was fine with out it, I just wanted more turns on my mixture screws. G/L Ray
I've used All Brands of Carbs over the years. Holley, Edelbroch/AFB, Q-jet, webber, SU. they all have their good/bad points. Q-jet is the best on MPG, Holley is more "Tunable"(if you can keep it from leaking) AFB/Edelbroch is hands down the most reliable/easiest to work on. But ALL, because they are being mounted sideways, the baffles don't do alot of good. If you can afford it, Fuel inj is the way to go.
I've used All Brands of Carbs over the years. Holley, Edelbroch/AFB, Q-jet, webber, SU. they all have their good/bad points. Q-jet is the best on MPG, Holley is more "Tunable"(if you can keep it from leaking) AFB/Edelbroch is hands down the most reliable/easiest to work on. But ALL, because they are being mounted sideways, the baffles don't do alot of good. If you can afford it, Fuel inj is the way to go.
This is actually one aspect I was interested in was/is how much issue others are having with their carb setups. I think the 390 might have actually been a little large for my 2.8 which is why I may have had trouble getting it dialed in just right. But the bigger issue was under really hard cornering it just went completely wonky. I'm wondering if the Edelbrock guys have similar issues.
But ALL, because they are being mounted sideways, the baffles don't do alot of good.
Okay, don't crucify me for this suggestion ... but what about making an adapter to rotate the carb 90°, perhaps even with a "twisted" divided plenum (or something along those lines) in the adapter that would help prevent the primaries (and secondaries) from supplying just one bank of cylinders (if that's indeed an actual issue)?
Work with me here. Think outside the box.
[EDIT] I had forgotten that I had basically asked this same question almost exactly a year ago HERE. I may have poor memory, but at least I'm consistent!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-01-2015).]
Patrick, I had the same thought but I'm pretty sure if I tried hard enough I could piece together a adequate FI system for just a little more than buying a new carb.
you can, just like every tunnel ram and blower for the last 50+ years.. and a single plane intake would not care.. Anyone that had "Issues" because the carb was sideways didn't set up the carb correctly in the first place.. but plates like the one in the photo, that turn the carb sideways for a front engine rear drive vehicle, will put the carb on the fiero set up.. front to rear like normal instead of sideways.. and a single plane intake will help in this car as it'll kill a little of the low end torque, and still give even a 283 v8 more torque than the trans axle is rated for down low..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-02-2015).]
you can, just like every tunnel ram and blower for the last 50+ years.. and a single plane intake would not care.. Anyone that had "Issues" because the carb was sideways didn't set up the carb correctly in the first place.. but plates like the one in the photo, that turn the carb sideways for a front engine rear drive vehicle, will put the carb on the fiero set up.. front to rear like normal instead of sideways.. and a single plane intake will help in this car as it'll kill a little of the low end torque, and still give even a 283 v8 more torque than the trans axle is rated for down low..
first off, go REREAD my post, then learn what a single plane intake is.. then even with that intake you can get a plate like the one I posted in a 2" height, and run it,, or cut/mill down that divider.. (just like edel does with it's "rpm" line of intakes)
the 15ft lb(v8-less when you use a 2.8 60* v6 that the intake you posted bolts to, that no one would use on a 2.8 instead of the stock efi) a single plane intake would give up at idle to 2000 rpm isn't going to make one lick of difference in a car this light.
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-02-2015).]
I dont even consider anything buy Edelbrock either. Works perfect out of the box. You can go for a decade without any more adjustments. Biggest plus besides that is they dont leak like a Holley. Everyone I ever knew with a Holley spent some time every week adjusting on it for the rest of its life. One has been on every car Ive had from Mopars to Fords. The ONLY problem I ever had was on the Fiero. With the engine setting sideways the carb wasnt level and it would flood /starve on a hard turn and it soaked up the engine bay heat for vapor lock. Putting a fiber wedge shaped spacer under it cured both problems immediately.
That's what I originally thought, but was informed otherwise in this thread starting HERE.
um, no.. go look at an intake are the ports to every cyl straight on, or do some turn? if the air fuel can get to the far cyl and not need the carb right over them, then turning the carb on the intake won't do anything , now if you used a dual plane intake, sure. it case issues , yes in an all out racing engine it "might" change what cyl port are the lean one, but you are only moving the throttle blade 1" not enough for it to matter..
I dont even consider anything buy Edelbrock either. Works perfect out of the box. You can go for a decade without any more adjustments. Biggest plus besides that is they dont leak like a Holley. Everyone I ever knew with a Holley spent some time every week adjusting on it for the rest of its life. One has been on every car Ive had from Mopars to Fords. The ONLY problem I ever had was on the Fiero. With the engine setting sideways the carb wasnt level and it would flood /starve on a hard turn and it soaked up the engine bay heat for vapor lock. Putting a fiber wedge shaped spacer under it cured both problems immediately.
edel carb's are for those that want to bolt it on and go, and are fine with giving up power, tuning one is just as involved as tuning a holley.. you're buddies that had to tune/adjusting them every week, just liked to tinker, nothing more.. holleys leaking is from user error..
I agree, I've had problems with a leaky holly once that wasn't used error. It was a bad batch of castings and the aluminum literally started flaking apart. Holley replaced it with a new carb and once we set it, it has been perfect on my father in laws chevelle.
edel carb's are for those that want to bolt it on and go, and are fine with giving up power, tuning one is just as involved as tuning a holley.. you're buddies that had to tune/adjusting them every week, just liked to tinker, nothing more.. holleys leaking is from user error..
Most of the 'buddies' were professional racers and engine builders, both drag and stock car speedway cars. I never seen a Holley that didnt leak at one time or another...the bowls are above the seals. On an Edelbrock, there are no openings below the bowl tops...so they only can leak at the inlet fitting or spill over the tops of the bowls. I tried a pair of Hollies I bought brand new way back in the day when I did drag race for a dual carb hemi Mopar. No one could get them running even fair at the track, so I threw them out in the cornfield next to the track and put on the 2 AFBs that were on my street tow car and it ran great, and switched them back when I was ready to leave. You couldnt give me a free Holley. My one best friend back then had a Ford with a Holley, and he had to readjust the idle mixture and speed weekly so it wouldnt quit on his wife. He was a dealer auto mechanic.
I think well tuned QJet is the best way to go. Thats what i have on my sbc Fiero and i love it! Small primary and huge secondary. If you go that route, I suggest you buy the Cliff Ruggles book on how to propely rebuilt a Qjet. He also sell quality rebuilt kit.
Most of the 'buddies' were professional racers and engine builders, both drag and stock car speedway cars. I never seen a Holley that didnt leak at one time or another...the bowls are above the seals. On an Edelbrock, there are no openings below the bowl tops...so they only can leak at the inlet fitting or spill over the tops of the bowls. I tried a pair of Hollies I bought brand new way back in the day when I did drag race for a dual carb hemi Mopar. No one could get them running even fair at the track, so I threw them out in the cornfield next to the track and put on the 2 AFBs that were on my street tow car and it ran great, and switched them back when I was ready to leave. You couldnt give me a free Holley. My one best friend back then had a Ford with a Holley, and he had to readjust the idle mixture and speed weekly so it wouldnt quit on his wife. He was a dealer auto mechanic.
dealer mechanic.. ok, sure as the motorcraft ford carbs are what again?? maybe they should learn how to tune a carb,, there is more to it than turning a idle mix,screw.. the edel, (carter) and the q-jet have the same issue, small fuel bowls.. and I'd take a q-jet over a edel-crap anyday..
first off, go REREAD my post, then learn what a single plane intake is.. then even with that intake you can get a plate like the one I posted in a 2" height, and run it,, or cut/mill down that divider.. (just like edel does with it's "rpm" line of intakes)
the 15ft lb(v8-less when you use a 2.8 60* v6 that the intake you posted bolts to, that no one would use on a 2.8 instead of the stock efi) a single plane intake would give up at idle to 2000 rpm isn't going to make one lick of difference in a car this light.
First off, not much for tact are you? I understand the red in your ratings. Second, I know perfectly well what a single plane manifold is. However I don't believe they even make a replacement manifold for the 60* v6 in a single plane. Which makes your comment about turning it 90 degrees moot, at least as it applies to the 2.8. And even if you could manage to turn it sideways with a 2" adapter plate, you create a whole new set of problems, pushing the carb up through the deck lid being the first that comes to mind. But even then, I seriously doubt a 2" plate would be enough. Yeah, cutting out the divider, sure, that would probably help. But you still don't have to be a dick about it.
Your opinions, as are mine. Working for a dealership dont mean thats the only car you know about. If you work on Fieros, does that mean you dont know how to do anything on a Ford or Dodge ? That was just one guy. No one else at meets in Okla City and Tulsa could get them working good either. Maybe I just got a bad pair from the parts store I got them. For whatever reason, they were junk. I wont ever get another.
Tell me all these things to do tuning a carb. You have mixture screws, idle speed screw, jets/metering valves (2 min job on Edel by one screw), and float level. The only other thing adjustable is the throw on the accelerator pump (usually 2 lengths, one or the other hole). Edel also has mechanical secondaries...they either open at wide open or not. Those are all you can do I know of except for maybe machining something custom. Ron Farmer, a local friend of mine for 30 years was hardley someone who didnt know what he was doing. He got me into boat racing for a year or two and replaced the Holley on it (454 jetboat) with an Edelbrock and set it up in 15 mins where I won a class 2nd place at a national event.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-03-2015).]
First off, not much for tact are you? I understand the red in your ratings. Second, I know perfectly well what a single plane manifold is. However I don't believe they even make a replacement manifold for the 60* v6 in a single plane. Which makes your comment about turning it 90 degrees moot, at least as it applies to the 2.8. And even if you could manage to turn it sideways with a 2" adapter plate, you create a whole new set of problems, pushing the carb up through the deck lid being the first that comes to mind. But even then, I seriously doubt a 2" plate would be enough. Yeah, cutting out the divider, sure, that would probably help. But you still don't have to be a dick about it.
odd you comment on tact, when yours had zero.. if I am reading it correctly it said " OH REALLY, Sideways, on this intake " then under photo "DO TELL" so knock off the b/s..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-03-2015).]
odd you comment on tact, when yours had zero.. if I am reading it correctly it said " OH REALLY, Sideways, on this intake " then under photo "DO TELL" so knock off the b/s..
The lack of tact started when you insulted the abilities of everyone who has had the same problem by proclaiming their incompetence.
Edelbrock's are well known for their simplicity, reliability, streetability, and ease of tuning... not necessarily for all out performance. There are carbs out there that will outperform them on the track, but for the street, they fit the bill perfectly.
This sums it up pretty well with the Edelbrocks. For the people who say " Out of the Box in ran perfect" either got extremely lucky or what they meant to say was " it ran good enough". No carb is going to run "perfect out of the box". If you don't know how to tune a carb. i.e. with a vacuum gauge and ideally fuel/air meter than stick with Edelbrock/ qjet. If you want to performance tune go with the carburetor that has been copied over and over... Holley. G/L Ray
Agreed. I was lucky that my 500 2-barrel came jetted for 300 ci. However, it was a little rich so I had to jet it down 2 points.
Point being, no matter how close, out of the box is approximate. It's like "plug and play" injection systems. They still need to be tuned to the engine.
But, I do agree the Edelbrock is a good reliable design.
This sums it up pretty well with the Edelbrocks. For the people who say " Out of the Box in ran perfect" either got extremely lucky or what they meant to say was " it ran good enough". No carb is going to run "perfect out of the box". If you don't know how to tune a carb. i.e. with a vacuum gauge and ideally fuel/air meter than stick with Edelbrock/ qjet. If you want to performance tune go with the carburetor that has been copied over and over... Holley. G/L Ray
I guess Im realllllllllllllllllly lucky because out of the 200+ cars Ive owned in my life, Ill guess I put 20-30 AFB/Edelbrock carbs on my own cars. Never had one not run fine straight out of the box. The most I ever had to do was set idle speed. Even my SuperBee I put the 413 in a few years ago got a new Edelbrock and it could lite up the tires as long as I held the gas down...so Ill say it was 'good enough'. Ill take streetability and reliability over performance since none of my cars were ever lacking any power for me on the street. Ive checked some of them with a vacuum gage and playing a bit with mixture and never had one do better than the original settings that were on them. I never bothered to dyno an engine with both to see a comparison, so saying a Holley gives better performance doesnt prove a thing to me...its just an opinion. I see a LOT more cars at events with Edelbrocks...like 3-4 or more to 1.
Part of the reason I asked the question is I'm wondering how some of the carbs are performing in hard cornering being mounted sideways. Particularly the Edelbrocks, since that's what I got. I'm on the fence about it, and am starting to consider a ProJection system, or something similar if the Edelbrock has the same shortcomings on cornering as the Holley. Any opinions about that? I don't really care about it being good out of the box, I bought mine used and it was set up for a smaller motor than mine, so I'm sure it's going to need to tweaking.
when I first ran my Edelbrock it did the same thing. You have to work with the metering rods and springs along with your mixture screws, also very important that you check the floats are set properly. my new Holly that I pictured above I have not had a problem with. sometimes on the Holley's You need to run vent tube extensions or a rubber hose connecting the two. Ray it's vitally important that you get one of these kits, make sure it's the proper one for your carburetor. http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelb...ulQGg_280aAi8G8P8HAQ Edited to add link.
[This message has been edited by rcp builders (edited 02-03-2015).]
Thanks for the link on the cal kit, I went ahead and ordered one, along with a bunch of other stuff..although from Summit (cheaper).
The one reason I figured the Edelbrock may be better suited to being mounted sideways is the floats are hung 90* out from Holleys, and that was where every bit of my issues lay. I don't know what everyone else is running suspension-wise, but I can tell you mine is extremely tight, almost not streetable. I spun a bearing in my 2.8 by running the oil pickup dry on a somewhat sustained right hand turn. That's how I ended up with a Holley on it in the first place, one of the things I did when I rebuilt that motor. It would either flood from gas overfilling the bowls, or starve from poor availability to the metering blocks. My old NASCAR rep buddy hooked me up with a few different types of baffles, they helped a little, but sustained hard turns they just were no match for. Anyway, gonna give the Edelbrock a shot. And just as a side note, I'll be running an oil accumulator on the small block....I *really* don't want it to run dry.....
... but what about making an adapter to rotate the carb 90°, perhaps even with a "twisted" divided plenum (or something along those lines) in the adapter that would help prevent the primaries (and secondaries) from supplying just one bank of cylinders (if that's indeed an actual issue)?
