The tires on the rear of my 88 coupe Fiero have been wearing too fast, and the wear pattern told me that the tow-in was too much. I've had it aligned in a tire place twice, but they never did the rear. The pipe wrench marks on one of the adjusters told me that someone tried to adjust it, but a pipe wrench is NOT the best way to do it. More on that later. I decided to do it myself with a "string alignment". To do this, you tie a string around the wheels, like this: Make sure the front wheels are pointed straight ahead. To do this, sight along the string on each side, and make sure it is straight. Now, check where the string hits the rear wheels, as in this picture It's hard to tell from this picture, but the string is more than 1/4" from the front of this rear wheel. That's way too much tow-in. The rear tow adjusters on an 88 Fiero are slotted sleeves secured by bands with nuts and bolts. The best way to turn these sleeves is with a tool like this: After loosening the bands, you insert whichever end of the tool gives you the best angle into the sleeve's slot, and turn the sleeve. The tool spreads the sleeve apart a bit, making it easier to turn (but it still takes a lot of effort). To decrease tow-in, turn each sleeve so that the bottom turns toward the front of the car. Adjust each wheel so that the front of the wheel just touches the string. Since the front track is slightly narrower than the rear track (I checked this in the manual), you will still have a very slight amount of tow-in, which is fine. Note: Other year Fieros have conventional tie rods in the rear, and adjusting these is a lot easier than the 88 adjusters. But the procedure would be similar.
When you do the string alignment, the strings need to be attached to conduit (or something) at both ends so they remain parallel. Just wrapping them around the tires doesn't ensure the two strings are parallel which leads to inaccurate toe measurements.
An issue with an 88 with doing string align would be the stagger in the width between the front and rear axles. You can measure the difference. Take a measurement of the front and rear of the the tires 3 Oclock and 9 Oclock. On each axle set. You need to take from the front and rear of the tire to make up for toe difference. Add the 2 measurements and divide by 2. That would give you your width for each axle set. Then the measurement from the front axle should be less. Take that measure difference and split it in half. That would be the thickness of some kind of shim that you would use on the front wheels, between them and the string. You can tape them to the tires I would also take a 3 foot level and check camber and get it close before adjusting the toe. When you adjust toe, you are going to need something under the tire to keep it from putting tension on the tire while adjusting, throwing you measurement off. When you back down off the ramps, you might find that caused your adjustment to be off. Someone here at the forum had a good suggestion to that problem. Put a trash bag on top of the ramp so the wheel would turn easily. If you want to understand it better, with the car on the ground and the steering unlocked, try to turn the front wheels by hand. Then try it with both wheels front wheels on trash bags. It's almost like having cheap alignment turn plates. When you adjust the toe and the tires are on something solid, you have to overcome that tension. Most of the time you are going to have the suspension under tension before the toe starts to change. And when you come off the ramps you find you adjusted too much. With something under the tires to help them "slide", it helps to keep the suspension from loading before the toe adjustment can be seen.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 03-29-2015).]
According to the spec, the front track of the 88 Fiero is only about an inch and a half narrower than the rear track. When you consider the length of the car, and the fact that difference is only 1/2 as much for each side of the car, using the string exactly amounts to a small fraction of a degree of tow-in. And when you consider that my rear wheels were towed in so much that the front of the wheels were over 1/4" from the string before I adjusted them, I'd say adjusting them to the string is virtually perfect. After all, alignment specs are usually plus or minus a full degree or so.
The track width spec is from the center of the tire contact patch and is based on the stock wheels that have different widths and offsets F/R. The use of non-stock wheels could change the track width front/rear. If I remember correctly from my last alignment using the parallel string method, if you run the same size wheels/tires/offsets front and rear the fronts end up with a wider track width than the rear and would lead to a toe out condition using your method.
I was wrong in my last message. My car is an 88 coupe, not a GT or Formula. Coupes came with the same wheels on all 4 positions, and even though my car has aftermarket wheels, they are still the same on all 4 positions. And the official track spec for an 88 coupe is 59.3" front, 59.4" rear. So my strings were, for all practical purposes, exactly parallel.
From Blooze's detailed suspension drawings, it would indeed appear that the front wheel mounting flange spacing is about 8mm narrower (4mm per side) than the rear (suspension width dimensions are the same between coupe, formula, and GT and bypasses wheel differences). So if you use the same wheels/tires front and rear, the 4mm narrower front should result in .10 degree of toe in per side (.20 degrees total) with the wheels set parallel to the strings.
With the stock wheels/tires for the Formula/GT, there is 21.7mm (11.8mm per side) difference in the track width (at the center of the wheels/tires). Since the strings rest along the outer edges of the tires, you must also add half of the section width (205/2 = 102.5 for the front and 215/2 = 107.5 for the rear) then the front becomes another 5mm narrower per side. So now the string has a 16.8mm delta per side with the front being narrower with equates to .40 degrees toe in per side (.80 degees total).
So your proposed method will work for your car (and other 88's with the same wheels/tires front/rear), but once you start staggering the wheel widths, offsets, and tire sections widths, the degree of toe in will vary depending on the specific combo of parts.
I still prefer the parallel string method as you can see the measured toe at all 4 wheels regardless of tire/wheel combo.
Here are the supporting drawings from Blooze...
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-30-2015).]
I have to disagree with the previous post. It's getting almost impossible to find an alignment shop that does a decent job. Using the string method, I've aligned several cars and have had perfect results (because i did it myself). For the stagger, build up the front track with plywood shims to get the offset to match the back, then simply tie the string to itself. It's not necessary too tie off to another structure. In this case, looks like he had aftermarket wheels installed and probably not staggered, so the difference would not be such an issue. If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. Most alignment shops are a joke. There are a few exceptions, those are usually old timers in old shops in the undesirable parts of town. That'd be where you'd have a fighting chance at getting a decent alignment.
I agree with f85gtron, in that I've had my 88 coupe aligned twice by a "professional" shop, and, while they did a very nice job on the front wheels, they didn't touch the back wheels (except to tell me that one of my trailing links was bent, which I later fixed myself). They may have attempted to do the back, based on the pipe wrench marks I found on one of the adjusters, as I mentioned in my first message. I even showed them the tool they should have used to turn the adjusters. I didn't mention it in my messages, but I also adjusted the camber on my back wheels on a previous occasion, as they were tilted outward (at the top). I think a previous owner changed the struts, and didn't attempt to align anything when he put it back together. I just eyeballed the camber, making the wheels straight up and down, instead of tilted outward. I'm sure a lot of people here will complain about that, as well. And if I ever have to "string align" the wheels on the "new" Formula I just bought, the .40 degree tow-in (per wheel), with it's staggered wheels, is fine (and probably well within spec).
[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 03-30-2015).]
I am under the impression that where the shops usually don't do well is on aligning the rear wheels, is that correct?
I stared doing home alignments after several poor ones from professional shops. All my cars are 88's and the shops couldn't do either end very well. There is a special tool set for the front alignments that make setting the camber/caster a breeze. Almost no shops have these tools. The other area where they mess up on the front is the requirement to jounce the front suspension every time you lower the car back down after making an adjustment. Without it, the car rides too high and the toe is set at the higher ride height. Then when you drive it off the rack and down the road and the toe is not correct at actual ride height. They also tend to not properly tighten the upper a-arm bolts, so within a few miles the bolts slip and messes with Caster, Camber and Toe.
Here is the special tool kit for the 88 front - KENT MOORE J-36419
I don't think that most shops intend on doing a so-so job as much as many just don't know how to. I started with a Hunter Light-Align and John Beam Light Beam. You had to look up adjustments in a manual or just know where to do them. before 4 wheel machines became popular, we had to back the car on, set the rear, then put it on normal and set the front. Most techs from 20 years or less have gotten a little spoiled with the alignment machines that show where and how to do them. If there is an older car that the machine doesn't have specs for it normally would get the "set the toe and let it go". Except for us older techs who knew how to do it by the readings. It gets me how many moan about Camber on an 4wd S10 and didn't check to see if the torsion bar ride height was the same and didn't have to adjust it anyway. Shown someone that and he takes the 2 mins to check all of them now. The first Fiero I had aligned, to me, was a Chevette in the front and a Citation in the back. We had to figure that out on our own. But it wasn't that hard anyway. Some of the worst ones were late 70s, early 80s Mercedes were if one adjustment was made, it through off the others. Setting toe would change Caster and so on. Without a newer machine you had to anticipate how the readings would be effected in your head. If you are paying for a 4wheel alignment and the alignment is not right, you need to have them understand that a Fiero IS 4wheel alignable. Rear Camber/Toe, front Caster, Camber and Toe. And done in that order. By the book, the only addition to labor would be for Caster if the control arm had to come off. Adjusting or flipping the upper ball joint was included. You just have to know how. Most of us weathered techs (no damn it, I'm a mechanic, techs are those guys with lab coats) have no issues with Fieros. Unless it was badly wrecked or you want it at specs that it wasn't designed for. I put my 85 on the rack last August after having the cradle out. The manager was whining that it was going to take too long. 1/2 hour later, I was rolling off the rack with the readings dead on. Set rear Camber, Rear Toe and front Toe. I need to do an alignment to the 87 I recently got. Rear Camber is visually off. I'm most likely going to level/string align it. My newer boss is kind of a dick.
I do toe different. I clean off the tread while its on stands with load on the control arms. Then I turn the tire while holding a silver marker in place to make a line all the way around the tire on the tread. Then you just measure between the front of the left and right tire on the line, and do the same at the rear of the tire. Start with them being equal and then I turn the adjuster so that the front moves in 1/2 of what its supposed to be on one side, then the other side the same amount to give you the overall measurement you want (ie 1/4" total toe would be 1/8" to each side). If your doing the rear toe, the string is a good idea to make sure its tracking straight to the fronts, then make final adjustment like above.
The way I do alignment is use fishing line(as it is thin) tied between two jack stands on each side of the car, I make sure the lines are parallel, (the most time consuming part) after that I can get exact numbers, not just "in range" For the camber I use a welding angle finder on a rod that touches both sides of the rim.
In the first pic you have it on ramps, you can't measure your ride height, the car is angled, the front will be more loaded, the list of things wrong just goes on and on.
Originally posted by sardonyx247: In the first pic you have it on ramps, you can't measure your ride height, the car is angled, the front will be more loaded, the list of things wrong just goes on and on.
Regardless, it drives perfectly now, even on wet pavement with worn ruts in the pavement. It used to be a bit squirrely under such conditions. But the real test will be the tire wear, and I'll have to wait a while for that result.
The way I do alignment is use fishing line(as it is thin) tied between two jack stands on each side of the car, I make sure the lines are parallel, (the most time consuming part) after that I can get exact numbers, not just "in range" For the camber I use a welding angle finder on a rod that touches both sides of the rim.
In the first pic you have it on ramps, you can't measure your ride height, the car is angled, the front will be more loaded, the list of things wrong just goes on and on.
I've used pink mason line between two jackstands, but the fishing line is more of a "crisp" line on the rule. Saw this when I watched Sardony set the alignment on an s10 blazer, took awhile, but it was damn near perfect.
Wrapping the line around the wheels is ONLY used on a solid rear axle, and ONLY if the front and rear have the same track width, IMO. It may work as long as you set the rear toe to zero first, but it doesn't seem like it would be that accurate after jouncing the suspension after every adjustment, since the toe will always change when the suspension moves.
Originally posted by sardonyx247: The way I do alignment is use fishing line(as it is thin) tied between two jack stands on each side of the car, I make sure the lines are parallel, (the most time consuming part) after that I can get exact numbers, not just "in range" For the camber I use a welding angle finder on a rod that touches both sides of the rim.
After replacing all of the suspension bushings (rubber except the cradle) I decided to give the fishing line method a try using two jack stands. My car is an 86 so no offset stock however, I do have offset wheels on the car. The trick here is to measure from the center of the center caps to setup the parallel line and you can see the difference in wheel widths in the distance from the line to verify accuracy. I set the camber first since it can change toe when adjusted. I also placed about 80 lbs of weight on the hood forward to help lower the front end since it still sat a little high even after preloading the control arms before tightening the bolts.
I'm quite impressed with the results. The steering wheel is straight and the car holds a straight line. What really encouraged me was finding out during my search on the topic that many Porsche shops use the string method to align those cars stating the Hunter equipment is not always calibrated and therefore accurate and even when it is it varies from shop to shop. Some of the owners align their own cars using this method as well and when you get right down to the basics there is little room for era outside of how well you setup the line. It's either parallel, or it's not. A good result takes time, so don't expect a great outcome from minimal effort.
Harbor Freight has long metal rulers/straight edges and a couple of small digital levels that would be helpful here. I'm considering one of a few 3 point wheel mounted devices on ebay, some of which are digital that will simplify and make setting up the line even easier. This method is as effective as an alignment performed by a high tech machine when done correctly with the appropriate amount of detail. High Tech alignment machines make the job much quicker, aside from that you're still at the mercy of the individual performing the alignment and whether they're having a four wheel adjustment day, or toe and go. If it's good enough for Porsche, it's good enough for Fiero.
I mostly use the string method and thats part of the reason I get such tremendous tire mileage. Its rare for me to wear a tire out in 100,000 miles, and they always wear evenly across the tread. The only one I ever had any trouble with was the Magnum. All the LX chassis seem to wear the outside edge off the fronts. I think its because of a bad front end geometry design paired with the big new V8s,
I stared doing home alignments after several poor ones from professional shops. All my cars are 88's and the shops couldn't do either end very well. There is a special tool set for the front alignments that make setting the camber/caster a breeze. Almost no shops have these tools. The other area where they mess up on the front is the requirement to jounce the front suspension every time you lower the car back down after making an adjustment. Without it, the car rides too high and the toe is set at the higher ride height. Then when you drive it off the rack and down the road and the toe is not correct at actual ride height. They also tend to not properly tighten the upper a-arm bolts, so within a few miles the bolts slip and messes with Caster, Camber and Toe.
Here is the special tool kit for the 88 front - KENT MOORE J-36419
I have a pair of these AIDS... Do you happen to have the instructions to use them? Thanks! Stan
I stared doing home alignments after several poor ones from professional shops. All my cars are 88's and the shops couldn't do either end very well. There is a special tool set for the front alignments that make setting the camber/caster a breeze. Almost no shops have these tools. The other area where they mess up on the front is the requirement to jounce the front suspension every time you lower the car back down after making an adjustment. Without it, the car rides too high and the toe is set at the higher ride height. Then when you drive it off the rack and down the road and the toe is not correct at actual ride height. They also tend to not properly tighten the upper a-arm bolts, so within a few miles the bolts slip and messes with Caster, Camber and Toe.
Here is the special tool kit for the 88 front - KENT MOORE J-36419
I have a pair of these AIDS... Do you happen to have the instructions to use them? Thanks! Stan
I have a pair of these AIDS... Do you happen to have the instructions to use them? Thanks! Stan
They didn't come with any instructions. When I do alignments, I take the wheels off and let the car rest on the rotors on blocks. Then you install the tools on both ends of the upper a-arms and snug them to the chassis. Loosen the a-arm bolts. I use a couple of magnetic digital angle finders. One on the face of the rotor (camber), the other on the upper flat of the tie rod arm or the vertical surface of the upper ball joint surface (caster). I try to dial in as much caster as I can get on both sides while making the caster and camber match from side to side. Once you have the caster & camber set, then you adjust toe.
Use the tool on the front side of the cross shaft to push the leading edge of the cross shaft as far from the chassis as possible to increase caster and reduce negative camber. At the rear having the bolt as close to the chassis increases caster while increasing negative camber. Normally I start with the front bolt moved to the outer most position of the slot and the rear bolt at the inner most portion. Check both sides to see which has the lowest value of caster. Then on that side use the adjusters to adjust the camber while trying to keep the camber maximized. Once you have one side done, make the other side match.
Another way to think about it is by focusing on the ball joint end of the upper a-arm. You want it as far to the rear of the chassis as possible to maximize caster, while keeping it at the needed lateral distance from the side of the front frame rails to have the proper camber (-1 degree or so). So you adjust the tools at each end until you get the desired measurements.
Is there any WAY to measure "CASTER" at home without an alignment machine ??
Wasn't that just addressed?
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I use a couple of magnetic digital angle finders. One on the face of the rotor (camber), the other on the upper flat of the tie rod arm or the vertical surface of the upper ball joint surface (caster). I try to dial in as much caster as I can get on both sides while making the caster and camber match from side to side. Once you have the caster & camber set, then you adjust toe.
Fieroguru, I have the special tool kit pictured above for the 88's. I believe we've discussed this in years past, but do you happen to have an image handy of the "magnetic digital angle finders" that you currently use? And if I recall correctly, you used a much more basic device for measuring this angle previously?
[EDIT] I ran a search ...and found where we discussed this previously. Click
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-30-2016).]
The cheapest digital angle finder I can locate is This one on eBay for $20.81 direct from Hong Kong/ China. The Harbor Freight one is $29.99... although it could be marked down at their next sale.
Fieroguru, is it worthwhile to use two at once as you mentioned you do, or would using one and switching between setting caster and camber work out okay for someone who's only doing this once a year?
Wait for a sale and you can usually pick them up for $10 each.
I use both at the same time. You adjust Caster and Camber at the same time with the same adjustment, so it is just faster to be able to watch the values on both readouts as you make the adjustments. This is where the adjusting tools are handy as you can make small adjustments and they will stay put while you check the readings. Without those adjusters, you have to snug the cross shaft bolt to hold it in place while you verify measurements.
You could do it with 1, but for every small adjustment made, you would have to move the digital angle finder to both positions, make another small adjustments, move the angle finder to both positions, etc...
You could do it with 1, but for every small adjustment made, you would have to move the digital angle finder to both positions, make another small adjustments, move the angle finder to both positions, etc...
Okay, gotcha.
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Wait for a sale and you can usually pick them up for $10 each.
Be ready for the frustration caused by the cross shaft teeth biting into the metal leaving notches that force incremental adjustments that are not always to your liking.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...020511-2-017287.html I bought the gauge for caster/Camber, but this 2x4 with adjustable screws is by far the EASIEST. They will never get my $$ in an alignment shop again. and it works for ALL cars, not just fiero's
Just glanced through this thread, and thought I'd throw my $0.02 in... I use a variation of RogerGarrison's marker-line method to set toe at home. With the vehicle on the ground and all 4 tires properly inflated, I lay a 4" tall cinder block near the bulge on the outside of the tire on each side of the car. Then I place a board longer than the diameter of the tire on top of the block. Each board has been marked with its own center mark and, off that center, two marks describing the tire's diameter. With the boards pushed GENTLY against the outer sidewall of each tire, line up the center mark with the center of the hub. Measure the distance between the "diameter" marks behind and in front of the tires (this may require an assistant), and you have your starting toe measurement. We use the marker-line method where I work, only we scribe the tread rather than mark it. The last time, I had to spray paint a patch around the tires so we could see the scribes; my shop manager went sideways at the faint overspray on the shop floor. I told him, like he always tells us, that I thought we were in the problem solving business. He didn't like my using his argument against him... Anyway, just another way to separate cat from skin.
...and found where we discussed this previously. 
