BTW the Fiero wheelbase is 1 inch shorter than the VW, but it has much longer overhangs. I need to move the radiator back, mostly move it upright. I don't plan to crack open the AC lines, just bend them.
The wheelbase of the Rabbit is 1 inch longer than the Fiero. I plan to take that up with fender flares. The Fiero is about 5 inches wider. I am offsetting the body to the driver's side somewhat to preserve the dash on the driver's side so I have good AC on that side. I may add 1 inch wheel spacers on that side to lessen the offset.
ThaDriver has been working on just the opposite. He used a Cabriolet and installed the rear cradle assembly of a Fiero for a mid-engine setup. I believe he eventually dropped in a small block. Not sure if he's got it finished, yet. Maybe he'll drop in and update us.
Yeah, I welded in metal to mount the Fiero cradle, & welded in Fiero front frame rails to mount the Fiero front suspension. Been 3 years; plan to get back on it this summer. I think your way is quicker. http://angelonearth.net/VW.html ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Yeah, I welded in metal to mount the Fiero cradle, & welded in Fiero front frame rails to mount the Fiero front suspension. Been 3 years; plan to get back on it this summer. I think your way is quicker. http://angelonearth.net/VW.html ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Wow Paul, that is some really nice work you've done. Kinda pisses me off to know I'm not the first to do this though! But as you say, maybe I'll get mine driving first. What's left of the Fiero did start up and drive under the VW body just a couple days ago. But then I had to remove the battery. If I can finish dropping the body on and tack weld it in a couple places and hang the battery back on there somewhere it should start up and run again, albeit with one spark plug hole stripped out, haha.
Hey Paul can you tell me more about your engine cover and targa top or post some pictures? I was planning on going with a targa type setup also. I plan to use the front part of the cabby convertible top frame and weld a Rabbit hardtop section to that. Thus making it removable by the front top latches. Not sure how I would do the back latches. Also not sure about a back window. I was thinking about getting a zip out rear window made by an upholstery shop or welding in the window surround from a mini truck cab, assuming I can find one that will fit (other than a VW Caddy, which would undoubtedly give me guilt issues).
Yeah I knew it would piss you off... But there have been several folks that built mid-engine Cabrios, usually using VW drivetrains. I may be the only one with a SBC. I was also planning to use the top frame to make the targa, but I haven't decided if I'm going to cover it with cloth or fiberglass. I have the frame made for the rear cover & plan to make a fiberglass cover for that. I may make a plug & pull a mold, if so I could make a cover for you. I also have a Subaru Brat sliding rear window. Looks like it will fit - plan to build a frame for it that will be removable. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Okay, this isn't a knock against the build, this is a question out of ignorance. What is the end result supposed to look like and why go this route? It sounds like a LOT of work... not sure what the end goal is.
------------------ -Chris '85 V6 SE 4sp (SOLD) '88 GT - Series 3 SC3800 w/ 3.5" pulley, 1.8" rockers, 3" exhaust, 3.5" intake, 3.29 gearing. Installed and tuned by Sinister Performance '99 Kawasaki Vulcan 500, owned since new '09 G37x Sedan w/ Premium & Nav (wife's car) '13 G37xS Sedan (new daily driver) '14 Yamaha FJR - 0-60 in 2.8s w/ 34MPG!!!
Adding wheel spacers to one side of the car only is going to throw off your steering, suspension function, spring rates on that side, and even give the car odd handling...possibly dangerously so at high speeds. To each their own and best of luck. Poor Formula....
Okay, this isn't a knock against the build, this is a question out of ignorance. What is the end result supposed to look like and why go this route? It sounds like a LOT of work... not sure what the end goal is.
The end goal is a car that looks like a highly modded Rabbit Convertible. As the Driver said, there are other mid engine Mk1's out there. I'm hoping to be the first "completed" convertible. Most are pickups and the others are coupes as far as my research has lead me to believe. Also, I hope to be the only one with functioning AC. Further, my goal is to be at 9 pounds/hp or less. And also to handle like a mid engine car. Like a Fiero!
Incidentally, this project might seem ghetto to you. I hope the end result is not. I do actually own a genuine Ferrari 348. I wouldn't build an imitation exotic. I'd rather put more humble bodywork on a fast car than expensive looking body work on a lesser car. Not to judge, but it's just not my thing.
I really like the look of Mk1 Rabbits and Cabbies and I think they look super sick with fender flares. But I don't really like FWD. Having said that, I do have a Mini Cooper and I did build another Rabbit with a Honda Civic front clip.
[This message has been edited by carwhisperer (edited 04-08-2015).]
Adding wheel spacers to one side of the car only is going to throw off your steering, suspension function, spring rates on that side, and even give the car odd handling...possibly dangerously so at high speeds. To each their own and best of luck. Poor Formula....
How would you know any of that to be true? I mean, you may be right but can you justify it? I did an LS swap in a 75 Mercedes W115 chassis. I shortened the upper control arm on one side to clear the AC compressor and had a much longer tie rod on the other? Are those things that would throw off the steering, etc? I do agree the spring rate would be different. I need to look into that. If it turns out to be significant maybe I can account for it with different springs. But you have to know that not all suspension/steering systems are symmetrical. For example, air cooled bugs have vastly different length tie rods, not that they are know for superior handling. Also, I'm pretty sure Ford's twin I beam suspension is not the same left and right. Then again, that's a pickup truck front suspension and not known for it's handling.
Thanks for the good luck wish though! I'll proceed cautiously before I do those mods.
Originally posted by carwhisperer: How would you know any of that to be true? I mean, you may be right but can you justify it? I did an LS swap in a 75 Mercedes W115 chassis. I shortened the upper control arm on one side to clear the AC compressor and had a much longer tie rod on the other? Are those things that would throw off the steering, etc? I do agree the spring rate would be different. I need to look into that. If it turns out to be significant maybe I can account for it with different springs. But you have to know that not all suspension/steering systems are symmetrical. For example, air cooled bugs have vastly different length tie rods, not that they are know for superior handling. Also, I'm pretty sure Ford's twin I beam suspension is not the same left and right. Then again, that's a pickup truck front suspension and not known for it's handling.
Thanks for the good luck wish though! I'll proceed cautiously before I do those mods.
Yes, changing the suspension geometry will affect the handling. When you move the pivot points of the control arms, or tie rods, it will affect steering and handling.
Yes, changing the suspension geometry will affect the handling. When you move the pivot points of the control arms, or tie rods, it will affect steering and handling.
I agree it will be affected but I contend it won't be much. Like I said, on my LS mercedes you couldn't tell at all. I moved the forward pivot of the upper control arm on the passenger side outboard 1.5 inches. I agree that this will not have the exact same affect as the spacers I'm proposing. But all suspension systems have compromises. Some have many.
The suspension of a swing axle Beetle, for example, sucks like crazy. But with stiff springs and other fixes (a rear z bar, for example) you can make that pathetic suspension work pretty well. Have you ever followed a Formula V car around a road course?
I'll bet with fairly stiff springs I will hardly notice it. I mean, you're not saying it's going to be like driving a car after a ball joint has failed, or one with the brakes working only on one front wheel, are you? My plan is to try the spacers and see if I like them. After I have that figured out I'll make the flares.
Then again, the best laid plans of mice and low budget car customizers often go awry.
And this is my F car. I didn't build it. But I have done quite a bit of work to it, including designing and installing a climate control system that actually works, vs. the stock one which rarely works on these cars.
That body style isn't my cup of tea but I like the philosophy. It's clear you've got skills, and I wish you good luck on the project and look forward to seeing more
Okay, this isn't a knock against the build, this is a question out of ignorance. What is the end result supposed to look like and why go this route? It sounds like a LOT of work... not sure what the end goal is.
My end goal is a bad-ass little Cabriolet. I like the styling on these cars, with flares & spoilers (like the Wolfsburg edition). Everyone says it's a "chick car", to which I say "great - if they think it's cute I'll be glad to give them a ride.". Nice cars carwhisperer. I currently have a 914 in the shop that's getting a turbo WRX drivetrain & has lots of fiberglass parts & mods. What engine is in your 914? ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
How would you know any of that to be true? I mean, you may be right but can you justify it?
Thanks for the good luck wish though! I'll proceed cautiously before I do those mods.
My thought is not for a different tie-rod length with respects to steering and handling, but rather a different distance between the ball-joint pivot and its relation to scrub radius. With an extra inch further away from the ball joint, the wheel will have a longer pivot radius on that side which may cause tighter steering as that tire pulls into the wheel well up front and cause more tire scrub as it tucks in while turning the other direction. With that extra inch away from the spring, the springs on that side will feel weaker. Combine that with odd scrubbing and it puts me on edge... kinda nervous. Perhaps 1" extra may not even be noticeable , but the wife always tells me it can make all the difference in the world. don't get me wrong, great project and innovative ideas... I just love the formulas. At least it isn't a yellow t-top formula with beachwood.
My end goal is a bad-ass little Cabriolet. I like the styling on these cars, with flares & spoilers (like the Wolfsburg edition). Everyone says it's a "chick car", to which I say "great - if they think it's cute I'll be glad to give them a ride.". Nice cars carwhisperer. I currently have a 914 in the shop that's getting a turbo WRX drivetrain & has lots of fiberglass parts & mods. What engine is in your 914? ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Haha I agree with the chick car reputation for these cars. I love the styling, or lack there of, as well. Econoboxes are usually my favorite look cars. Alec Issigonis, the designer of the original Mini, said that he hated styling. He designed the chassis of the Mini and then just wrapped enough sheet metal around it to cover things up.
Having said that, I think Rabbits look pretty BA with fender flares and big wheels. Yours is going to be really sick, having a V8. Maybe go LSx at some point?
Is my project helping to inspire you to get back after it? I hope so. Your work on that engine compartment looks show quality. I don't plan to finish mine to that level of detail. I'm hoping it will become my new daily. I converted that little white 1st gen Civic to AWD and drove it for 180K miles over 10 years. I put a little turbo on it for the last 5.
I put a Ford 2.3 turbo in the 914. I did it transversely with an early Escort transaxle. Bolts right up. It took me a while to figure out a clutch combo that wouldn't slip under boost. Eventually I found that a Taurus SHO clutch would fit in there. I was running 22 psi of boost on a stock bottom end. Home ported heads. I widened the rear track by 3 inches by moving the suspension outboard. Those are Corvette C5 rims (17's and 18's) on there. I miss that car.
My thought is not for a different tie-rod length with respects to steering and handling, but rather a different distance between the ball-joint pivot and its relation to scrub radius. With an extra inch further away from the ball joint, the wheel will have a longer pivot radius on that side which may cause tighter steering as that tire pulls into the wheel well up front and cause more tire scrub as it tucks in while turning the other direction. With that extra inch away from the spring, the springs on that side will feel weaker. Combine that with odd scrubbing and it puts me on edge... kinda nervous. Perhaps 1" extra may not even be noticeable , but the wife always tells me it can make all the difference in the world. don't get me wrong, great project and innovative ideas... I just love the formulas. At least it isn't a yellow t-top formula with beachwood.
You make some good points. I will definitely consider them as I proceed.
Originally posted by carwhisperer: Incidentally, this project might seem ghetto to you. I hope the end result is not. I do actually own a genuine Ferrari 348. I wouldn't build an imitation exotic. I'd rather put more humble bodywork on a fast car than expensive looking body work on a lesser car. Not to judge, but it's just not my thing.
No, it doesn't seem ghetto, but it does seem different. Everyone has their own tastes. If you can end up with something that's close to 9hp/lb, then you'll end up with something pretty quick. I am somewhat surprised that bmwguru hasn't popped in yet. He's done some very interesting Fiero/VW hybrids using VW drivetrains.
------------------ -Chris '85 V6 SE 4sp (SOLD) '88 GT - Series 3 SC3800 w/ 3.5" pulley, 1.8" rockers, 3" exhaust, 3.5" intake, 3.29 gearing. Installed and tuned by Sinister Performance '99 Kawasaki Vulcan 500, owned since new '09 G37x Sedan w/ Premium & Nav (wife's car) '13 G37xS Sedan (new daily driver) '14 Yamaha FJR - 0-60 in 2.8s w/ 34MPG!!!
Made some progress yesterday. Got the body to sit all the way down in the rear. The offset of the body is going to be about 3.5 inches, it looks like. Also included a picture of one of the main tools I use for this. A 14" chop saw blade on a 9 inch Mikita angle grinder. Looks scary and it is.
While I have no interest in this type of swap from an aesthetic point of view, I can appreciate the engineering challenge.
I think from a stability and handling point of view, you really should re-consider your choice to offset the chassis. As an engineer, I suspect that the asymmetric suspension geometry you are proposing will be unpredictable and dangerous. This may not be apparent until you are in a situation that pushes the upper limits of it, when an unpredictable response may have potentially deadly results. I wouldn't use the justification that "it's been done", since you don't have true data as to the application, engineering or results of any similar modifications.
Secondly...please remove that 14" chop saw wheel from the grinder and do things safely. This is a bad setup and, like the proposed suspension modifications, will not end well.
Thanks for taking an interest in my project. I have been using 12 and 14" chop saw blades on angle grinders for 7 or 8 years now. Yes, I do have a few scars but you can't really cut your finger off with one of these abrasive blades. I mean, you'd have to be really determined to do that. It's not like it's a 14 inch wood cutting blade. When you want to cut straight through 3-4 layers of steel that total 6 inches thick in a unibody car all at once I don't think there is much of an alternative. Of course you can go through layer by layer with an acetylene torch or maybe a plasma cutter but you don't end up with a very straight cut.
Cool that you're an engineer. What discipline? Are you a designer? I have a B.S. in mechanical engineering. My dream was to design sports car suspension system. But I'm a high school/community college math teacher. Those who can, do, those who can't, teach. Right?
Yah I've pretty much abandoned the spacer idea. I don't think the 1 inch spacer is going to do much aesthetically so I'm going the opposite direction of trying to emphasize the offset body. Probably put a big scoop/fender flare on the right rear for the intercooler. Do you think the offset body in and of itself will be a problem? I suppose I will weigh all 4 corners when I get the car together. I don't think I'll have a huge left bias. The engine is offset to the passenger side and I'll keep my relocated battery on that side too. My GF is pretty light so she won't help much. Plus, I might have difficulty getting her to ride in it anyway.
[This message has been edited by carwhisperer (edited 04-14-2015).]
if you leave the suspension stock and mount the body offset as you are showing in the pics it will handle fine but look strange . It is all about how much weight you have on each wheel and how you adjust for it . The stock fiero has anything but symmetrical weights on each corner .My 86 gt with 2.2 ecotec turbo and lots of mods - driver rear 819 lbs driver front 577 lbs passenger rear 742 lbs and passenger front 653 lbs . Full tank , my 190 lbs carcass inside .I have coilovers at all corners and I weight jack to get the height and cornering balance the way I like it .
I'm still getting over the fact that you've done this to a perfectly good Fiero! Plus all the parts to that tan interior are just strewn around the place. It does not look like you've even tried to save them for someone else to make use of. Engineering wise it's interesting. From a Fiero enthusiast's point of view it's a cluster ****.
Of course, that's just my point of view.
------------------ Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
It did take a little bit of intestinal fortitude to make the first cut. But once I got past that it was easy. I can try to sympathize with how you feel but it's not like I was cutting up a Ferrari Dino or something.
These are cool little cars but in non running shape they sell for almost nothing at this point in history. I found one for $200 that I almost bought but it was an 86 and once I found out that the 88 suspension is so much better I decided I needed one of those. I wanted an AT because I have a bum right shoulder and didn't want to go through swapping over a manual car. Also an AC chassis was a must have. So it came down to that red car.
I paid $800 for it. I had it towed to my cabin by AAA. I sold all the body panels, headliner, headlights, etc. for $200. I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to give it away so I was relieved when someone came and got it. Even a self proclaimed local Fiero enthusiast wasn't willing to pay for the parts. He said he would take them for free. BTW, the yard is all cleaned up now, both of Fiero and VW parts.
I'm super excited about this project right now. I need to do some more cutting to make room for the VW windshield wiper motor and the hood hinges and then I think I'm ready to drop the body on all the way. I plan to do that this afternoon. I am doing the work at a cabin I have in the Sierra Nevada mountain town of Pollock Pines. It's about 45 minutes away from my house so I don't get to work on it every day. Then again, it keeps the junk away from the house which I'm sure makes my GF a little happier.
Thanks for taking an interest in my project. I have been using 12 and 14" chop saw blades on angle grinders for 7 or 8 years now. Yes, I do have a few scars but you can't really cut your finger off with one of these abrasive blades. I mean, you'd have to be really determined to do that. It's not like it's a 14 inch wood cutting blade. When you want to cut straight through 3-4 layers of steel that total 6 inches thick in a unibody car all at once I don't think there is much of an alternative. Of course you can go through layer by layer with an acetylene torch or maybe a plasma cutter but you don't end up with a very straight cut.
Cool that you're an engineer. What discipline? Are you a designer? I have a B.S. in mechanical engineering. My dream was to design sports car suspension system. But I'm a high school/community college math teacher. Those who can, do, those who can't, teach. Right?
Yah I've pretty much abandoned the spacer idea. I don't think the 1 inch spacer is going to do much aesthetically so I'm going the opposite direction of trying to emphasize the offset body. Probably put a big scoop/fender flare on the right rear for the intercooler. Do you think the offset body in and of itself will be a problem? I suppose I will weigh all 4 corners when I get the car together. I don't think I'll have a huge left bias. The engine is offset to the passenger side and I'll keep my relocated battery on that side too. My GF is pretty light so she won't help much. Plus, I might have difficulty getting her to ride in it anyway.
The 14" cutoff wheels are designed for a rigid machine that cuts straight. By using it on a hand grinder, there is a high likelihood of side loads that could cause the wheel to come apart. I've seen pics of small ones coming apart and it's not pretty. At that rotational speed, I'd hate to be around one coming apart. Is it likely to happen? Maybe not. But it only has to happen once to lose an eye. There was a picture on PFF recently from one of the guys who had it happen to a relative. The wheel embedded itself into his grinding helmet. That was just a small 4" wheel. Imagine the rotational speed of the outer edge of a larger wheel... much faster. For a cut that deep, I would just use a sawzall with a metal blade. You can cut through anything and usually pretty accurately. They aren't expensive either. (I just bought a new Ryobi a couple of weeks ago for $60 just for the purpose of cutting my Fiero in half)
Yes, I am a Marine Systems Engineer (Navy), with a BEng in Mechanical Engineering, Masters and PhD in micro robotics. Unfortunately, the only cars I get to design are my own. I actually work for Defence Research.
As others mentioned, not as big a deal offsetting the chassis. How you deal with the weight distribution will be important. Aerodynamics will be a factor, but you're not building a race car, so much less of a concern.
That AWD Honda looks interesting. Any more details or a build thread on that somewhere?
Gary
No, I don't have much of a build thread to reference. There is some stuff on d-series.org, about when I turbocharged it. I built the car in 2003, before I really stored images on my computer. But I do have some pictures I can try to post. The basics were another body transplant, similar to what I'm doing now with the Fiero/Rabbit. I cut the body off of a 1990 Civic RT4WD wagon. I shortened the structure 9 inches. I cut the floor out of the 74 Civic, and welded it all back together. Simple in concept but obviously lots of details. Eventually I added cruise control, a power window on the passenger side, removed the viscous coupling and put in a manual shifter. That RT4WD trans comes stock with 6 forward speeds, but 1st was a granny gear. It had great Air Conditioning. I drove that car 190,000 miles in 10 years. It got right around 30mpg. It weighed 2450 and I think it was making only about 130hp on 6psi boost. I stored it for about 6 months after I took it off the road. I wanted to keep it but didn't have a good place for it. Literally cried when it drove away.
I'm still getting over the fact that you've done this to a perfectly good Fiero! Plus all the parts to that tan interior are just strewn around the place. It does not look like you've even tried to save them for someone else to make use of. Engineering wise it's interesting. From a Fiero enthusiast's point of view it's a cluster ****.
This is a bad setup and, like the proposed suspension modifications, will not end well.
