I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about the 2nd gen headlight setup as all I've had until now have been 1st gen. The h/ls in my '87 GT worked fine until tonight. I went out to run to the store and only the passenger side went up. No whirriing or anything else to suggest the motor itself is bad. (The light itself came on just fine but I know they're on separate circuits.) Cranked up without a problem (if memory serves, it seems like it took less cranks to raise the 2nd gen compared to the 1st gen). Got to the store, shut off/went down just like it was supposed to. Back out of the store to go to McDs and it went up as normal. After 10 minutes in McDs, it wouldn't go up again. (I didn't bother to crank it up this time.) It's not misaligned as it still wouldn't budge with the hood up and/or with my tapping it or moving it around. I know nothing about the control box (in the drivers side wheel well?), either. Exactly where is it, what does it do and does it do it to each motor individually or as a pair?
Thinking it's not a fuse issue since the passenger side works flawlessly and the drivers side worked when it wanted to. Not a gear issue as I can't hear any odd noises. Not sure what else to look for but I figured I'd ask here before tearing into it. If it matters, it is the same light that was slow (relatively speaking) when I got the car. And, for what it's worth, I was planning on R&Ring another set of 2nd gen motors/light assemblies on Wednesday (have RDs rebuild kits w/gaskets) and putting them in the GT.
Each motor grounds through the module so if 1 or both are working then the ground is good. You need to check for power to the malfunctioning motor when it won't move. If there is power then it my be a bad motor. I had the passenger side motor on my 88 act up occasionally where it wouldn't go up all the way or not at all, I ended up replacing the motor to fix the problem. Here is the gen2 headlight motor wiring diagram:
Thanks, seajai but I can't read..............electrical schematics. I'll just live with it until Wed/Thurs when I rebuild the other set of h/l motors. Still need to source standard halogen h/l bulbs. Rebuilding the other motors (and assemblies) will give me a chance to grease everything properly. Any way to test the control module? I might need to get the one off the (sort of) parts car.
I've had similar problems with my 87. When one (or both) won't raise, I manually raise them a little bit by turning the crank, then turn the headlight switch on. They'll raise the rest of the way on their own. It's like, sometimes when they lower, the motors wind too tight.
I'll try that in a minute but it sounds like I need to rebuild a motor or 2. No big deal. I've rebuilt a few 1st gen motors. Hopefully, 2nd gen motors are as easy.
I've had similar problems with my 87. When one (or both) won't raise, I manually raise them a little bit by turning the crank, then turn the headlight switch on. They'll raise the rest of the way on their own. It's like, sometimes when they lower, the motors wind too tight.
Believe it or not, that seemed to work. I'll see how long it lasts. I'm still going to rebuild both of mine this week but still.... Thanks for the tip.
I've had similar problems with my 87. When one (or both) won't raise, I manually raise them a little bit by turning the crank, then turn the headlight switch on. They'll raise the rest of the way on their own. It's like, sometimes when they lower, the motors wind too tight.
This is a low voltage, low amperage problem to the windings on the motor armature. It takes a lot more voltage/amperage to start an electric motor running than it takes to keep it running. Check things like grounds, corrosion on the connectors etc. Could be in the controller. Relay contacts might be degraded. Can't say I have seen anyone replace the relays in the controller yet. I'm sure it can be done. Bad connections to the motor brushes? Maybe a little of everything and it all adds up to a lot of additional resistance.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
VERY Likely motor(s) is binding and module is working and shut down power to binding motor. Is a very common issue and nothing major is wrong. See my Cave, Gen 2 HL Motor
So loosening the motors work... May just need clean and lube on bottom section. Adjuster screw at bottom have 1 small loose BB... Clean/lube this but Do Not preload after. Motor must see a small amount of play. I have picture to update the cave w/ this info.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I'm going to rebuild both motors tomorrow anyway. Might as well have basically brand new motors. I'll make sure I grease everything while I'm at it. I have to find a pair of halogen headlights. What's the best kind of grease for everything?
I used White or Brake grease for the gear and small BB. You should lube the BB but The gears were dry from the factory. Why? I get to that in a minute.
Brass bearings are "dry" from OE. Brass might be sintered bronze with oil built-in or no oil because of the motor is on only a few seconds each time you flip the switch. The problem is adding grease/oil here could bind later because many will get sticky.
I wouldn't touch the the motor itself unless there is a very good reason. Many threads here how to reinstall the brushes in the motor have no clue what they're doing And I don't have time to post directions right now.
All HL are halogen bulbs, even OE... H6054... H is for Halogen. SilverStar and others are using 55w low beam vs 35w. See my Cave, Headlights
quote
Originally posted by donuteater306: I've had similar problems with my 87. When one (or both) won't raise, I manually raise them a little bit by turning the crank, then turn the headlight switch on. They'll raise the rest of the way on their own. It's like, sometimes when they lower, the motors wind too tight.
That's exactly what's going on. The module sees the motor load at stall then cut the power. The stall happens at the end of travel when the motor tries to climb up/down the gear. Some pictures of load damage here 2nd Gen Headlight Pin Replacement Harder dowels versus OE dowels just moved the stall load to the next week spot to break... White grease on the gears can help or not. Greasing the gears help me but I don't drive much at night now.That lets the motor to back off the stall load a tiny bit but it may cause problems like a headlight that won't stay up over time when you drive a night. The grease gears might let the motor to vibrate down. (Engine noise, road vibration, etc. will vibrate the HL motor.)
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-05-2015).]
Glad that worked for you Monkeyman. But it looks like you and I need to rebuild these motors. Thanks Rodney and Ogre for the tips/suggestions. Both of my headlight motors have been apart for dowel replacement (3-5 years ago). I remember the orig. dowels were basically ground into a powder and it had gotten EVERYWHERE. I cleaned it out as best as possible, but I assumed that my occasional sticking issue was probably what I had missed. I'll check the grounds. Luckily I have a light module that I pulled from a totaled 87 Corvette that had under 20k miles on it. If it turns out to be a power issue, hopefully that will solve it.
Originally posted by donuteater306: Glad that worked for you Monkeyman. But it looks like you and I need to rebuild these motors. Thanks Rodney and Ogre for the tips/suggestions. Both of my headlight motors have been apart for dowel replacement (3-5 years ago). I remember the orig. dowels were basically ground into a powder and it had gotten EVERYWHERE. I cleaned it out as best as possible, but I assumed that my occasional sticking issue was probably what I had missed. I'll check the grounds. Luckily I have a light module that I pulled from a totaled 87 Corvette that had under 20k miles on it. If it turns out to be a power issue, hopefully that will solve it.
Not all modules on other cars are plug n play. most have switch down "signal." You have to check the part # or hope. See Used Parts in Gen 2 HL Motor I think you can just cut down wire and splice module side to parking light circuit.
Tonights project was the headlights. I removed both assemblies and about 50 yards of HID wiring. I bought some regular h/l bulbs. I opened up the drivers side motor and replaced the 3 ball bearings with RDs delrin doohickeys. I decided that I'd follow Ogres advice and leave the passenger side alone. Put 'em back in the car and the drivers side is STILL all jacked up. Now, it works every time but is NOISY and, with the hood closed, it will only go up about 1/2 way.
Are there bushings in each of the pivot points I can replace? Is it worthwhile to tear it down to the pivot points to grease everything (I sprayed white grease in the joints but didn't take them apart)? If it's too far gone, are ALL ('84-'88) headlight assemblies (minus the motors, of course) the same? This is getting annoying as I can't really drive the car to work the way it is (I come home in the dark).
[This message has been edited by Monkeyman (edited 05-08-2015).]
With the hood open there is little tension working against the motor. It sounds like the armature is bouncing around inside the motor. Check the end play on the armature by turning the manual turn knob a few turns until it is loose then pull up and down on the knob to see how much end play.It should move up and down about 1/16 inch. If the motor was worked on by the P/O it may be missing the little ball bearing on the bottom of the worm gear/armature. Other common problems is one of the magnets coming loose inside the motor, wrong grease or too much grease used on the gear then coats the brushes, broken gear due to over sized/undersized bushings used inside the gear, stripped teeth on the gear.
"Pivots Points?" you mean rest of lift assembly? They are dry plastic bearings and lube could make problems worse in long run. Maybe some dry Teflon could help. "Dry" lube won't be a dirt magnet.
I think Noise sound is in the motor(s). unplug the right to make sure.
Did dowels die? maybe Pieces are binding the gear(s). If Possible, Maybe the linkage is flipped... should be same as right HL lift. Both should not make that noise. Maybe flip link does if link is hitting lower lift "frame."
Did you loose or ignore/adjust BB? Either could cause noise and power problems.
If dowels are in one piece or big chunks, please save them for now... I'm trying to find someone who can tell exactly what type and grade plastic is use by GM.
"Pivots Points?" you mean rest of lift assembly? They are dry plastic bearings and lube could make problems worse in long run. Maybe some dry Teflon could help. "Dry" lube won't be a dirt magnet.
I think Noise sound is in the motor(s). unplug the right to make sure.
Did dowels die? maybe Pieces are binding the gear(s). If Possible, Maybe the linkage is flipped... should be same as right HL lift. Both should not make that noise. Maybe flip link does if link is hitting lower lift "frame."
Did you loose or ignore/adjust BB? Either could cause noise and power problems.
If dowels are in one piece or big chunks, please save them for now... I'm trying to find someone who can tell exactly what type and grade plastic is use by GM.
The problem is just the drivers side. I had the same noises before I messed with it but it would go up all the way (well...whenever I loosened the adjustment knob). I took part of it apart (the part with the big gear). There weren't any dowels, just 3 big ball bearings. I replaced those with RDs delrin dowels. I'll try to flip the link in the morning. I didn't do anything to the adjustment BB. I was getting a little confused about that once I saw the 3 big BBs (ball bearings?) inside the big gear.
Originally posted by Monkeyman: The problem is just the drivers side. I had the same noises before I messed with it but it would go up all the way (well...whenever I loosened the adjustment knob). I took part of it apart (the part with the big gear). There weren't any dowels, just 3 big ball bearings. I replaced those with RDs delrin dowels. I'll try to flip the link in the morning. I didn't do anything to the adjustment BB. I was getting a little confused about that once I saw the 3 big BBs (ball bearings?) inside the big gear.
3 BB in big gear is likely PO had old dowels go bad. Likely other side has that too.
Like driver's side motor top has been messed up too. Is why the noise. (To make sure... Disconnect right motor to isolate the noise.)
Not following "motor top". What do I do with the bottom end of the motor? It IS just the left (drivers) side that's messed up. Passenger side has noise but isn't noisy (it that makes sense). Trying to figure out if I need to fix the current motor, buy a replacement motor, buy/fix the cage assembly or a combination of the above. If Danyel ever gets off his butt ( ) and makes some of those 60mm headlight housings, maybe I'll go that way but I'll still need the motor/assembly to work.
Sort of fixed the headlight today. I'm just gonna go with "something was loose". It goes up and down with MUCH less noise (and it goes up all the way) however...there's still some noise and it's a bit slower than the passenger side.
Should I completely disassemble the motor, clean all the old grease out and regrease everything? (Wouldn't be my first choice.) Or is there something else that would cause it to be a little slow?
) and makes some of those 60mm headlight housings, maybe I'll go that way but I'll still need the motor/assembly to work.
