A short while ago I was was posting HERE inquiring about EGR tube alternatives for the Fiero's 2.8 engine. I was able to track down locally an EGR tube from a 2.8 Camaro. I like the fact that the tube appears to be made of heavier gauge metal. The necessary modification to the mounting holes on the one flange didn't take long at all.
However, unlike the flanges on the original Fiero EGR tube, the flanges on the Camaro EGR tube do not rotate. Bending the tube to get it to point in the right general direction is easy enough, but I'm not quite sure how to manipulate the tube to get the flanges themselves in the correct alignment. I don't wish to stress the metal tube any more than I need to... I don't want to crack it! Any tips?
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Originally posted by scott0999:
Camaro EGR tube
got mine on ebay, search for camaro 2.8 EGR tube
stock fiero EGR tube on left (flange broke), Camaro 2.8 EGR tube on right. its quite a bit stronger
I've read many times that the Camaro tubes fit a Fiero (with the minor mod to the bolt holes). I'm just looking for the secret to actually lining up the flanges!
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Originally posted by dobey:
Maybe you could grind them off and then modify them so that you can rotate the flanges, but that seems like it would be an awful lot of work.
There's no way I'm doing all that.
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Originally posted by JohnnyBones:
Pipe bending jig?
Well, the pipe itself actually bends easy enough... but I'm not sure how to "twist" it to line up the flanges.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-20-2015).]
I've read many times that the Camaro tubes fit a Fiero (with the minor mod to the bolt holes). I'm just looking for the secret to actually lining up the flanges!
You don't rotate the flanges to match the Fiero, since you can't rotate them.
I expect given that the Camaro one looks longer, that it might possible to sort of force it into a close enough angle that it sort of lines up, using some creative bending. I'd be skeptical that people who have done that, haven't ended up with cracked EGR tubes again fairly soon though, given the additional stress placed on the material.
I found this post, which only mentions slotting the ends, and links to this picture:
The heat wrap hides how the bends are made, but you can make a pretty decent guess from the picture. I don't know if that actually lines up as is though.
I don't know if that actually lines up as is though.
I suspect the way that tube is pictured is that it wouldn't line up properly the way it is. I'm also surprised that anyone would actually "slot" the holes to modify them. So little metal needs to be removed that slotting the holes (as pictured) appears to be overkill.
What I may end up doing is to simply attach the tube to both the EGR and to the upper plenum (while holding the plenum at a weird angle up above the engine), and then use the leverage of the attached plenum to bend the tube to fit. Not what I really want to do, but seeing as how there are reports that this EGR tube does fit, this appears to be the easiest way to bend the tube. I just need to make sure it clears the distributor cap and the wiring to the TB.
Dobey, thanks for looking into this further.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Patrick: What I may end up doing is to simply attach the tube to both the EGR and to the upper plenum (while holding the plenum at a weird angle up above the engine), and then use the leverage of the attached plenum to bend the tube to fit. Not what I really want to do, but seeing as how there are reports that this EGR tube does fit, this appears to be the easiest way to bend the tube. I just need to make sure it clears the distributor cap and the wiring to the TB.
That's basically how I installed the FS stainless EGR tube on my car. I didn't take the manifold off at all though. I just attached the manifold end first, and then tried to bend it to fit right. The stainless hose tube is flexible, but not terribly so. It can be a bit of a pain to get into the right position; especially if the intake is still on.
Oh, and I am happy to sell that braided stainless EGR tube. Since my 2.8 is seized up and I've already removed a large part of the parts on the top end of it, and I won't be needing it with the LS4, it's just sitting in my pile of Fiero parts that I need to get rid of right now. It's maybe had a few hundred miles put on it since I installed it, so I'd be looking to sell it for around half of what it cost new (so $50 US), shipping included.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 05-20-2015).]
Okay, I've got the Camaro EGR tube on for a test fit. The upper plenum is just being held on with four barely-snugged bolts. In the picture you can see the contortions that the tube had to go through to angle up to the plenum. The white arrow indicates a stud that the tube temporarily was pressing on when I first re-bent the tube. I pulled the tube towards the back of the car to clear the stud.
So, this is what a 2.8 Camaro EGR tube looks like when it's been re-bent to fit the 2.8 in an '88 Fiero...
I'll be taking it apart again so that I can install an asbestos jacket from an '85-'87 2.8 Fiero EGR tube. I'll take a picture of that as well and post it. At some point I'll see if I can find something more closely resembling the metal insulation jacket that comes on the '88 2.8 engine.
I recall having to install mine like that, but it was over 15 years ago. I do remember never having trouble with it again. I ran it like that for several years, then sold off all of the V6 stuff when I swapped in the V8.
I'm just curious how you got the other end of the tube without removing the plenum.
I removed the distributor cap/rotor and enough so I could get a wrench or small socket in there. I probably used my 1/4" drive socket set (I don't really recall what tool I used exactly). And I don't have fat hands, so was able to get in there enough to have the right amount of leverage to get the tube off/on. It certainly would have been easier by removing the top plenum, but I didn't want to deal with needing to replace gaskets for that, or the vacuum connections possibly breaking.
I recall having to install mine like that, but it was over 15 years ago. I do remember never having trouble with it again.
Did you insulate it, and if so, do you recall what you used to insulate it with?
I believe it's important to keep as much exhaust heat as possible within the EGR tube so as to reduce the heat added to the immediate area around the ignition components.
I stuffed it in the old, deteriorating blanket the original was in. It was on an 86.
Yeah, that's what I'll be doing for now as well. However...
I just placed a couple of my biggest eBay orders ever. Paid $1 for five(!) stainless steel ties from Thailand, and $2 for 39" of 2" wide header wrap from Hong Kong.
I just placed a couple of my biggest eBay orders ever. Paid $1 for five(!) stainless steel ties from Thailand, and $2 for 39" of 2" wide header wrap from Hong Kong.
Big spender! Hopefully it doesn't take a month to show up though... I have had THE WORST luck with international orders recently.
Nice work getting the tube to fit by the way!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
But I understand, you are looking for a cheap solution.
Are you suggesting I'm frugal?
To be honest, it was more of quick solution. I had considered getting Rodney's replacement EGR tube (I love Rodney's products), but keep in mind I'm in Canada and it simply takes longer to get stuff shipped up here.
Yes, the little do-dads I ordered from Thailand and Hong Kong will take awhile to get here as well, but I can still use my Formula in the meantime with the locally purchased Camaro EGR tube.
Yes, I'll post more pictures here of my progress, slow as it may be.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-22-2015).]
Heh heh... I thought you guys would get a kick out of that.
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Originally posted by Shho13:
Hopefully it doesn't take a month to show up though... I have had THE WORST luck with international orders recently.
I've ordered stuff from Hong Kong and mainland China previously, and the delivery times haven't been that bad. And the cost of shipping simply can't be beat. (It's basically free!)
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Originally posted by Shho13:
Nice work getting the tube to fit by the way!
Yeah, I was pleased that I was able to persuade the tube to orientate itself in that manner. The test will be when I start the engine and see if I've cracked the tube. I don't believe I have, but a 2000 RPM idle speed might tell me otherwise.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2015).]
Nothing wrong with that! I know I am, lol. And I totally understand "quick fix" when there isn't time to wait for parts. I would be ashamed to admit what I've have to improvise on a weekend or if I'm broken down and parts are not readily available.
I hope this works well so we all have another option that is quicker or easier to come by. Thanks Patrick.
Pictured here from left to right is... an '85-'87 Fiero EGR tube minus its jacket, the Camaro EGR tube mounted on the Fiero upper plenum, and the original '88 EGR tube showing the crack in the middle that was being hidden by its metal heat shield. (I cut the flange off the end of the tube to slide the metal heat shield off.)
. . . This is the jacket I removed from the '85-'87 Fiero EGR tube and transplanted onto the Camaro tube. Because of the layout of the '88 EGR system, the tube used on the '88 system ends up being a little longer... which is why the '85-'87 jacket seems a bit short. But it's fine, especially considering it's only temporary until my high price header wrap arrives from Hong Kong.
. . . And this is my assistant... the neighbor's cat. As soon as it hears me in my back yard, it comes running over. I wish I had this effect on women.
. . . And oh yeah... one more thing to mention. I installed everything and... and... and...
Success !
No cracks after bending the tube, and a nice low idle.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2015).]
Yes, I did. I was surprised though how little coverage there was on the EGR tube using the 39" of 2" wide header wrap. It certainly covered the whole tube, and I was able to overlap quite a bit, but the finished wrap didn't have a lot of thickness to it. I felt it wasn't enough insulation to contain all the heat. Two rolls of this stuff might've been better.
However... I then covered the wrapped EGR tube with several layers of heavy-duty aluminum foil. It was easy to do while the EGR tube was still off the engine, and I have to admit that I was quite happy with the results. It looks fine IMO, and it does the job well. I'll take a picture of the area on the next sunny day... although that might be by next June.
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Originally posted by Ponnari:
Thanks for the update Patrick. Too many people never post result how their project turns out after testing.
Lou, you're quite welcome. I normally follow up on something such as this, but without going into detail, this was a very different year for me and there were major "distractions". When I discovered yesterday that I had never posted the longer-term results, I was rather surprised. I'll get a picture posted in the near future so you can see what the finished project looks like, but keep in mind you'll not see the wrap as it's hidden by the foil.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-18-2015).]
Some images of the "finished" project. (None of my Fieros will ever be finished.)
These images show four things I've done to help reduce heat near the ICM. The coolant tubes to the TB have been eliminated, a heat sink is attached to the bottom of the distributor, an aluminum heat shield has been added to the factory heat shield by the coil and wraps around the distributor, and the replacement EGR tube (from a Camaro) has been heat wrapped and covered in several layers of foil.
I'll never get an award for having the prettiest engine bay , but the 2.8 in my daily-driver Formula is reliable and runs strong both on the street and at autocross.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-22-2015).]
Did you insulate it, and if so, do you recall what you used to insulate it with?
I believe it's important to keep as much exhaust heat as possible within the EGR tube so as to reduce the heat added to the immediate area around the ignition components.
The fiberglass/foil insulating sleeves on everything are crap. The foil just flakes off and makes such an ugly mess. See the shift cable here in my Indy after only a few years.
I replaced the factory style crap on the shift cable with DEI Fire Wrap. Has a velcro edge and will likely never need to be replaced. I will be using this as needed on both my cars from this point on. https://www.designengineeri...eving/fire-wrap-3000
Use the torch. You'd be surprised what a bit of heat can do. If you cut off the tube at the flange you can braze weld it back in any position.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If you cut off the tube at the flange you can braze weld it back in any position.
I didn't source a perfectly good EGR tube to cut it apart and then braze back together again. Bending it worked just fine. It's been two years now with no issues.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-05-2017).]
I didn't source a perfectly good EGR tube to cut it apart and then braze back together again. Bending it worked just fine. It's been two years now with no issues.
I've brazed a few of them together and they fit just like the original. Easier for me than trying to kink a tube and cause metal work hardening. I guess to each his own.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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