Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Fusible link A very hot (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Fusible link A very hot by 88cryan
Started on: 05-26-2015 12:26 PM
Replies: 62 (2822 views)
Last post by: Easy8 on 05-10-2017 11:27 AM
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-26-2015 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had to replace my fusible links with some from a donor fiero harness. Well I just happened to touch fusible link A yesterday and it was hot enough to burn me. This was after using the headlights and max a.c. all day. The wire itself was not hot but the black splice connector and link wire was very hot. It does not get hot with a.c. and light turned off.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post05-26-2015 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HL bulbs is not on Link A. Is on link B and breaker in HL switch.
most other bulbs are on Link B via Tail Fuse and/or Link A and related fuses.

AC Clutch, Radiator Fan, and Blower Motor in on Link A.
Either/both motors could have problems.

After you find the problem(s) then replace Link A.
Why? Fuse links and Fuses are weaken by high heat.

Is possible the lug terminal for Link A and B is bad. In that case replace both.

also See my Cave, Wire Service and Electric Motors.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-26-2015).]

IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-26-2015 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you sure you did a good job with the splices? Perhaps you have created an area of high resistance, or the donor links were in bad shape to start with? What caused you to replace the links originally?
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-26-2015 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
theogre I was hoping you would respond! Thank you for the headlight clarifacation. I'm going to check/redo my splices first, also change Link A again, then start checking the loads. Is voltage drop testing the best method for checking those higher amp draws? I would probably pop the 10 amp in my meter if I put it in series with the cooling fan or blower motor.

thesameguy I replaced them because back in the day I was younger/dumber and during my engine removal I cut them all because the power distribution block wouldn't come apart due to rust/corrosion. I regret that decision but not much I can do now. I will have to redo that Link A splice again anyway because Ogre says it could have been damaged from heat. I am going to do some research and make sure I splice it right. Afterwards I will diag the power draws.

Thanks!
IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-26-2015 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You could save some trouble and just buy a maxi fuse holder and call it a day.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post05-27-2015 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88cryan:
theogre I was hoping you would respond! Thank you for the headlight clarifacation. I'm going to check/redo my splices first, also change Link A again, then start checking the loads. Is voltage drop testing the best method for checking those higher amp draws? I would probably pop the 10 amp in my meter if I put it in series with the cooling fan or blower motor.

Meter can and likely will fry. Many 10a shuts have no fuse to stop that. Both motors draw ~8 amps normally. Motor(s) w/ issues could draw 12-20 amps or more as noted in motor page.

Ah,,, I though splicing was very recent...
Splice(s) issues could be the main problem.
Bad splice adds resistance and that will cause low volts and generate heat at the splice. Worse Motors w/ low volts because of bad splice draw more amps adding to Link A heat problem.

I would replace both links first and make sure repair is "waterproof."
Each link should get their own lug. GM save time at factory to have A and B in same lug.

Reusing old links are not a good plan either. Could be old links are iffy to start.

You can get new links at many part stores etc. If they came w/ normal (not water resistant ones) crimp terminals... use brake grease to make them water resistance. Use enough but don't get sloppy either.
Get crimp tools, not pliers.
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-27-2015 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All right guys, just an update for you. I successfully replaced both fusible links A and B. I properly crimped them and made them weather resistant. (Pictures of fusible link and job below for future readers). Unfortunately this did NOT solve the issue with Fusible Link A getting too hot. Approximately 2-3 mins after I engage Max AC Fusible link A becomes to hot to touch. I ran out of time to really diag it tonight however I did set the HVAC control to VENT max blower (cooling fan off) and the link is not hot (Blower not pulling that much). Then I turned the HVAC OFF and wait for cooling fan to cycle. After fan ran for 1-2 mins I touched the link and it was maybe slightly warm. So I'm wondering if combined load of everything is making it hot and/or A/C clutch coil pulling a lot too? I will try to do some real checking tomorrow, but for tonight I'm done and going to bed.....
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE


CLICK FOR FULL SIZE


CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

*Note MAXI fuse was replacement for alternator fuseible link (Alternator shorted out a while back and burned original link and that heavier gauge wire is not available at parts stores)

[This message has been edited by 88cryan (edited 06-02-2015).]

IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2015 01:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Couple things:

Are you sure a 14ga fusible link is what you need for A? Fusible link is designated by what it is designed to protect - so a 14ga link is designed to protect 14ga wire. 14ga wire is rated for 30a, and given standard safety margins you should run 20 or 25a *max* through a 14ga wire. The AC clutch, radiator fan, and blower motor seem like they would really be packed a little tightly in that space. If it's undersized, it'll get hot. I'd expect ~10a for the radiator five, ~5a for the clutch, ~5a for the blower. You could safely test them individually with an ammeter. If I was a wagering man, I'd bet against the clutch... those things get old & weak and become huge power sucks. I dunno - just a thought.

I would not run a Maxi fuse on your alternator. Maxis max at 80a. That isn't enough for a Fiero's alternator. You are probably creating an unnecessary high resistance point there.

IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2015 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
According to the ogre's cave fusible link a is protected by a 2mm link (14) gauge. I agree with you on the maxi fuse, going to bypass it as part of my diagnostics after work and see if anything changes. I couldn't find fusible link that big at the store.
IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2015 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could totally be 14ga - it just seemed like a small gauge for those accessories, but I have zero firsthand knowledge.

You can replace the Maxi with a Mega fuse. a 125a Megafuse and holder runs about $7 and you'll need a way to crimp 8ga eyelets onto the wires. You could reuse that Maxi holder for your fusible link. It's really a superior arrangement since you're not strangling electrons through barely adequate wire. A 30a or *maybe* a 40a Maxi would be a good replacement for A given my amp estimates are right. They're certainly close, and you can measure each component individually with a 15a ammeter.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2015 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The motor or coil could be the problem(s) or a symptom of a problem. Bad or loose power and/or grounds will cause a local low-voltage problem to one or more motors, any or all of the above and maybe the fuel pump and others.

Example:
The radiator fan only grounds to the driver's side grounds screw, G101. A loose or corroded ground here can cause the motor to draw more power to make up the low volts. An iffy fan relay can also cause a low volt condition. Is possible you have both problems at same time because Motor/coil w/ high amp draw for iffy ground can burn the relay.

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Fusible link is designated by what it is designed to protect - so a 14ga link is designed to protect 14ga wire.
Nope. Links are ALWAYS smaller then wire to protect.
From http://www.whiteproducts.com/fusible-faqs.shtml but many others will say same thing...
 
quote
Are there any general guidelines for choosing a suitable fusible link?
Typically, a given harness segment is protected by fusible link that is four gauge numbers smaller. A 14-gauge wire would be protected by an 18-gauge fusible link. A 6-gauge wire would be protected by a 10-gauge link, and so on. Odd number wire gauge sizes like 19, 15, 13 and 11 are counted when sizing a link. The length of a fusible link should not exceed 9".

My link table is data pulled from Aldata and Fiero GM SM diagrams. Aldata gets their data from GM SM for each year. Is not like Haynes and others that use 1 diagram for most/all years.

GM followed same rule... (I quick checked Aldata schematics for 84, 85, 87 right now. Sq. mm=Squared mm=mm² )
Link A is 1 or 2 mm² depending what year or maybe options. The Red wire itself, 5 mm², is same in all years I think. 5 mm² is 10 AWG. 2 mm² is safe, 1 mm² is undersize.
Link B is 1 mm², Red/White Wire is 3 mm².

14ga on label above contains wire marking w/ 2 mm², the metric version of 14awg/14ga. So label is connect and he got right part for link A. If use same for link B... Link is too big. 1 mm² link is 16ga.

Basics on how to read GM's schematics... See my Cave, Wire Reading

(Edit to remove an error smily)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-28-2015).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-28-2015 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I replaced link B with a 2mm also, so I need to correct that tomorrow. AutoZone does have the 16 gauge 1mm in stock also fyi.

Today I tested the cooling fan. I pulled the relay and jumped the terminals with a jumper wire. After the fan reached max speed I added the meter and removed the jumper so the meter didn't get spiked with full amp draw. I got a amp reading of 11.2 amps.

Is that in spec?
IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 02:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That sounds well within reason for an old fan.

I'd really look at the AC coil, or just see if the link still gets crazy hot with the radiator fan and blower on, but the AC off. That might be enough of a tip.

Also, be cautious about heat shrink around a fusible link. When they fail they get VERY hot, like melting metal hot, and there can be sparks and smoke. You do not want that heat shrink catching on fire from the heat. Typically, you do not want to encapsulate them like that.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 05-29-2015).]

IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88cryan:
Today I tested the cooling fan. I pulled the relay and jumped the terminals with a jumper wire. After the fan reached max speed I added the meter and removed the jumper so the meter didn't get spiked with full amp draw. I got a amp reading of 11.2 amps.

Is that in spec?

Sorry but w/o checking Volt to motor w/ fan on you don't know. Should be good. That Shouldn't fry the relay IF the relay is good. (Burn relay can work but adds resistance causing local low volts will effect amps used by motor.)
Why? Just Engine on or off matters when using Amp meter. Alt on then car should see 14-15 volts... alt off and full Battery is ~13v. Unknown charge battery can be a little to allot less. Watts on a given motor is constant. Change Volts, up or down just 1 volt, then will effect Amps needed by that motor.

You can have problems w/ G101 etc and still have "good" amp draw for a given motor. I would check all grounds including G201 and G202 in the cabin and all in the engine bay.
I've clean/fixed them on my car... frame to bare metal and use brake/silicon grease. Drill new holes when needed. Just Cleaning/fixing grounds can help solve many problems.

Again... Link A runs most of car... fan and blower motors, Fuel pump, AC clutch, Wipers, etc. All amp draw add up to frying link A. You could have several motors drawing a bit more amp w/o kill a single circuit. "Bad" Part may not be AC etc... They could be fine but the Total amp draw w/ dieing part is too much for Link A.
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm working on it tonight so far I tested the blower motor and its drawing 9.8 amps. Gonna test the a.c. clutch coil and maybe fuel pump too.

Thanks again everyone!
IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 06:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That sounds high for a blower motor, but not obscene. So far you're at 20a, out of a rating a 32a for 14ga wire. The coil should only draw about 5a but bad ones can draw 15a or more. With 20a accounted for and a bunch of car yet to run, you're probably dealing with a more systemic problem. As Ogre suggests you will want to check your grounds, as a bad ground can reduce the voltage reaching a motor and increase the amp draw. With great grounds, you may be able to reduce the amp draw of the two motors. Maybe not, however. Also don't overlook positive battery and alternator cables, they can be a source of high resistance (voltage loss) also. Have you checked voltage at the actual components with the engine off & on to be sure you're getting battery & alternator voltage all the way to the end of the line?

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 05-29-2015).]

IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks ogre! Yeah I am rusty when it comes to electrical testing. I went to college for automotive technology but I have been out for about 6 years. I do work in a shop but only for general service...brakes, oil changes, batteries, etc. Once in a while I get
to pull a dash out lol, but the dealership only sells cars 10 years old max so my diagnostics skills have went dormant.

I back probed the fan motor connector and it appears I am losing 1 volt at the fan motor connector while the motor is on. I got 13.8 at the battery while idling and 12.8 at the running fan.
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 07:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

88cryan

248 posts
Member since Apr 2009
Thesameguy: I have the drivers headlight out right now and cleaned the fan ground. Now I'm losing .8 volt at the fan while it's on so that ground wasn't to bad but many more to go. I agree with you both that it's systematic.

Edit: yes I am checking available voltage too. Nothing to bad yet. I was .14 less than battery voltage at the cooling fan.

[This message has been edited by 88cryan (edited 05-29-2015).]

IP: Logged
Fiero.1984
Member
Posts: 50
From: minnesota
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post05-29-2015 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero.1984Send a Private Message to Fiero.1984Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a rather long story about my experience with a fusible link on my 1984 Fiero so please be patient.

Years ago, I was driving to work and hit several large bump (pot holes) on the road and the motor stopped running several times. Eventually it quit totally and I came to a stop. The motor would not start and I had it towed to a garage. The garage "fixed" it by replacing the fusible link with an unfused wire. I did not know what they did but it seemed to work. I was driving home and the car kept cutting out and finally I pulled into a gas station and called for a tow. I had the car towed to another repair shop since I no longer trusted the first place to fix it. This shop called and said that the ECM was defective and needed to be replaced. So they replaced and it seemed to work again.

However, I noticed that the engine would cut out after hitting a bump just like before. I opened the engine compartment and looked around. Then I spotted that one of the spark plug wire had a burn spot on it. The wire would bump against the exhaust manifold and short out. Luckily I found this out before I destroyed the ECM again.

The main purpose of my story is that you need to find the reason that the fusilble link is bad. Something bad is happening causing the fusible link to overheat and if you do not find it, then the fusible link will burn out again.

I hope this helps.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post05-30-2015 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero.1984:
The main purpose of my story is that you need to find the reason that the fusilble link is bad. Something bad is happening causing the fusible link to overheat and if you do not find it, then the fusible link will burn out again.

84 Fiero and others built before ~85 model year have Fuse links going to the Starter.
That location is famous for Link failures.
Why?
start with:
Is a very hot area. Exhaust parts often area few inches away. The insulation will break down for high heat over time. (Heat shields often don't cover the links.)
Is a very wet area. Worse gets road junk salt etc get push on and into the link from tire spray.
The two will open holes and rot out the wire until the wire fries because can't take normal load.

So the fried link likely had nothing to do w/ you bad plug wire.

Upper location for 85 and up does help that allot but can fail for same reasons.
Finding the root cause is what he's doing... Checking motors etc.
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Today I checked the fuel pump and a.c. clutch coil. To sum it up...

What tested_______Amp draw______Voltage drop @idle

Cooling fan___________11.2___________13.0
Blower motor__________9.8____________13.4
A.c. clutch coil_________3.9____________13.5
Fuel pump_____________4.8____________13.5

System voltage @ battery and idle no loads is 14.1
With all accessories on 13.6


I let it run for a while with max a.c. on and touched fusible link a. After 5 mins it is hot to touch and 10 mins it is uncomfortably hot to the touch. I've cleaned the ground behind the left headlight and several in the engine bay. I still need to clean the two under the console and the radio but I'm running out of ideas.

Any other large loads on link A?

[This message has been edited by 88cryan (edited 06-01-2015).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, 30a is very close to the limit of 14ga wire. That is 32a. Because of the unpredictable nature of fusible links, it's impossible to know how close to the limit you are, how close to the link's actual failure point. It's obviously not 2a, but more than that is tough to guess. What can be said is that you probably don't want to operate that close to the edge of a wire's acceptable current. Seems like you have no voltage drop to speak of and none of those accessories are using really abnormal current. Honestly, it seems like things may be working as they should. But, the link should not really even get warm, so I do suspect there are other components on this circuit. Ogre suggests A runs most of the car, so if you've sucked up 30a on the four big draws, you don't have much with which to power everything else. I guess it depends on exactly what everything else is, but 2a ain't much.

IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah thats why I'm running out of ideas. If those four items are close to spec how can they use almost all the voltage that the wire can provide? Also check this out, I pulled this from my 88 service manual.....holy crap that is alot of stuff running off Fusible Link A!!! I want to find out where that splice is too.

CLICK FOR FULL SIZE


EDIT S206 is LH of steering column.

[This message has been edited by 88cryan (edited 06-02-2015).]

IP: Logged
thesameguy
Member
Posts: 1536
From: California
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It would be annoying, but you could break S206 into a couple segments to further isolate things, or start pulling fuses on systems coming from it. Ogre has way more experience here than I do (I have generic auto wiring experience) and may have some tips, but in a vacuum, it sure seems like pulling fuses is the easy place to start.
IP: Logged
88cryan
Member
Posts: 248
From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I tested some of the smaller amp draws via the fuse box too.

TBI 1and 2_______ .05
gauges___________1.14
Ecm IGN__________ .27
Radio_____________1.05

IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 19117
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 206
Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2015 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep looking at your FSM, the location of the splice is called out in the text accompanying the diagram you posted, and illustrated at the end of the diagrams.....

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 06-01-2015).]

IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32520
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 572
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2015 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please Use [img thumb] on you big images above. Is easier to read the thread.

Engine running and 13.x volts w/ AC etc on then likely still have power/ground problems in engine bay. If not main problem, won't help to find the root clause(s) either. Maybe the alt is wrong for the car too. IE too small for car's options. Engine at Idle then Alt is making less power too. See my Cave, Watt Story and CS Alternator Hell, just corroded alt mounts or loose belts can cause problems.

14ga Link is NOT same thing as rest of circuit. Rest is 10awg/5mm² and that sets up max amps value. (Some Side branches at S206 are smaller, most w/ own fuses.) Fusible Links are made 6-9inch and saying 14ga=30a is bs here.

Trying to melt a fuse/link is often the wire to protect is drawing 120-200x% or more that circuit design allows. Maxi/Mega fuse would likely repeatedly blow by now if you find right size to replace Link A. They are "fast" fuse types. Fusible Links are very slow type of "fuse." Fusible link wire itself is not special! Made of plane copper w/ often tiny "thread" in stranded wire. (tiny vs normal stranded wire for rest of car. link wire in not twisted vs most normal stranded wire.) The Insulation is special and design to smoke w/o catching fire and keep the burnt wire end capture so the ends don't short out to the body etc. If you blow a link, you know very easy. You can see blown Fusible links in Google image or on YouTube.
EtA---> Technically Maxi, Mega and others are often "Slo-Blo" type but still allot faster blow then Fusible Links.

Try to buy/borrow/rent AC/DC amp clamp that reads higher range. Right size of amp meter often is allot less work. The clamp will tell you exactly amp draw at any test point w/o "splicing" in a normal shunt. Plus if a relay is bad then will tell you by amp drawn. (Relay Might get hot too.)
Example: http://www.amazon.com/Auto-...-Meter/dp/B001VGND88

S206 could be but you can and should remove fuses etc first.

Using you 10a shunt...
Make sure AC, fan, and blower is off.
Engine off.
Pull HEI Coil plug and BAT fuse and rest of fuses.
Note: Ignition and Radiator Fan motor Do Not use any fuse. (Fan fuse only protect control side of circuit.)
Connect amp meter to link A and dist box. You shouldn't see much amps but be careful you don't fry the meter.
Have a helper to watch the meter then put back each fuse then remove again.

Two big history of problems:
  • Lighter socket... that's on BAT fuse.
    If you have "foot light" then light will back feed power. See my Cave, Sneak Path
  • HEI system... Could be bad tach filter etc making coil to draw more power. After market coils, MSD etc, could be problems. Cars w/ MSD controls could be problems. See my Cave, HE Ignition

    Iffy ignition switch can cause a local low volt on a given circuit... PLUS that might get hot too. Warm to Hot to touch or a cheap IR temp might tell you.

    (edit to fix %. Thanks for adding Thumb.)

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-03-2015).]

  • IP: Logged
    88cryan
    Member
    Posts: 248
    From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
    Registered: Apr 2009


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post06-13-2015 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Maybe the alt is wrong for the car too. IE too small for car's options.


    The alternator was a replacement remy with 105 amp from pepboys.....HOWEVER I have been hearing a sqeak and noticed my belt is fraying a little. The alternator pulley has 6 grooves and the other pulleys have 5. The alternator has a lifetime warranty and pepboys cant get me the right one so they are giving me a full refund! I found the correct one at oreily auto parts with 5 grooves and will be replacing it tomorrow. So hopefully the new one puts out more than 14.2 volts. When I install it I am going to wire wheel the mounting bracket for maximum ground contact.


    When I finally get a weekend to myself I am gonna try the amp clamp and do further diagnostics.....I am getting married June 27th, so wedding/honeymoon stuff is using alot of spare time. Since she works today and tomorrow I get to work on and prepare our daily driver for the honeymoon trip today and tomorrow install the alternator on the Fiero. The daily is a 2011 Ford Focus. It has a bad TXV so I am replacing it and the reciever/drier. Must have ac for the drive!! Luckily I have a friend with an ac machine to properly recover and store my refrigerant and make sure it gets an exact charge. Then Im changing the trans fluid, oil change, and doing a brake/tire inspection.
    IP: Logged
    88cryan
    Member
    Posts: 248
    From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
    Registered: Apr 2009


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post06-15-2015 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    Replacement oreily alternator put out 14.3 no load and 13.7 loaded. I guess that is all I'm going to get. Further diagnostics for excessive draw will be after wedding.... anyway, I'm sick of messing with it and getting no where.
    IP: Logged
    theogre
    Member
    Posts: 32520
    From: USA
    Registered: Mar 99


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 572
    Rate this member

    Report this Post06-16-2015 12:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    Again... Alt makes low Amps w/ engine idle and is perfectly normal. This often shows as low volt w/ everything on as "voltage dropping." I don't think this is you main problem.

    Hot Link A is. That Should Not be.

    Any Motor must get Watts needed to do their job.
    Example You can often see this when you use PW or dim light when engine off/on. PW motors draw more amps at 12.xv vs 14v.

    Related problem Dim HL bulbs. (Lets assume is not old bulbs that can dim etc.)
    many Replacing w/ high watt bulbs but the real problem is other things, like:
    HL switch
    Dimmer switch
    Iffy power and/or grounds.

    Dieing dimer or main switch can fry from connect resistance IN the switch. (Higher wattage just makes wire/switch problems worse. Often fast too.)
    Iffy relays and ignition switch are good for same issue but unlike HL bulbs, is harder to track down the problem(s).

    Check amps drawn w/ any shunt can be harder or worse.
    Example Meter above is auto range w/ 400 and 1000 AC and DC Amps. http://www.elenco.com/produ...tal_clamp_meter=NDUw (I don't have one. Have use other elenco products is why that example.)
    Not All Clamp types can read DC amps. Many are AC only.
    My guess a clamp on Link A reads allot more more then most simple shunts and doesn't add resistance by inserting a shunt.

    Check volts by Carefully back probing the sockets. (use PFF etc searching.) Is handy to check switches/relays. Burns connects can cause voltage drop and that can cause local low volt to whatever. Very minor is normal, say 0.1 or less but 0.5 can be a problem cause by worn/cooked switch connects.

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-16-2015).]

    IP: Logged
    88cryan
    Member
    Posts: 248
    From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
    Registered: Apr 2009


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post06-16-2015 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    I know the alternator is not the issue for why link a is hot, but you were saying I should get 14.7 from alternator no load, and now on 3rd alternator and never seen over 14.3, doesn't matter if I increase engine speed and I clean the bracket. I just wanted max voltage before I start the diagnostics on everything.
    IP: Logged
    PFF
    System Bot
    theogre
    Member
    Posts: 32520
    From: USA
    Registered: Mar 99


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 572
    Rate this member

    Report this Post06-16-2015 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by 88cryan:
    I know the alternator is not the issue for why link a is hot, but you were saying I should get 14.7 from alternator no load, and now on 3rd alternator and never seen over 14.3, doesn't matter if I increase engine speed and I clean the bracket. I just wanted max voltage before I start the diagnostics on everything.

    Several reason you won't see exactly 14.7v...
    14-15v, like 14.3, is good because:
    Regulators could be set that value, like 14.3.
    Alt wiring have some resistance. Regulator see 14.x on short sense wire but rest of circuit looses a bit for old wires etc when volt is measure at block and + dist box.
    Also See my Cave, Alternator Sense Back probe the sense (red) wire on side plug. Should = main output terminal. (black grounded to alt case.)

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-16-2015).]

    IP: Logged
    NEVERDONE
    Member
    Posts: 1088
    From: ft worth, tx
    Registered: Sep 2011


    Feedback score:    (6)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-01-2016 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NEVERDONESend a Private Message to NEVERDONEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    Was there a solution to this? I'm having the exact same thing happen. Fusible link "a" is getting hot.
    IP: Logged
    NEVERDONE
    Member
    Posts: 1088
    From: ft worth, tx
    Registered: Sep 2011


    Feedback score:    (6)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-02-2016 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NEVERDONESend a Private Message to NEVERDONEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    Anything? Anyone?
    IP: Logged
    88cryan
    Member
    Posts: 248
    From: South Lebanon, Ohio, USA
    Registered: Apr 2009


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-05-2016 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88cryanSend a Private Message to 88cryanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    I never found the cause and I was wondering if it was a design quirk with the car, I don't know how many people have grabbed fusible link a with their car running and all accessories on. What are your symptoms exactly with your car?
    IP: Logged
    NEVERDONE
    Member
    Posts: 1088
    From: ft worth, tx
    Registered: Sep 2011


    Feedback score:    (6)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-06-2016 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NEVERDONESend a Private Message to NEVERDONEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/137491.html

    Read all about it here!!

    Edit; have you been driving your car since?

    [This message has been edited by NEVERDONE (edited 03-06-2016).]

    IP: Logged
    theogre
    Member
    Posts: 32520
    From: USA
    Registered: Mar 99


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 572
    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-06-2016 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
    Again... Hot FL is Never Normal. Wire itself is plane copper wire just a bit smaller to blow when have a short. (Insulation is made for this job.)
    Normal fuses never get hot in normal operation either and they do add a little resistance.
    Hot = Fuse/FL is screaming for help.

    Get AC/DC Amp Clamp meter. Examples above.
    This type makes quick work to find problems w/o guessing volts to a part.

    Used OE FL often have problems. Get new link(s) and install so the joints etc are water proof.

    Above amps/volts measure at engine idle... Can be a simple as Alt is not making enough power and whole car sees this as low volts problem. Iffy grounds won't help amp draw problems.
    See my Cave, Watt Story and Electric Motors.
    Try test battery volts and engine RPM >1500-2000
    IP: Logged
    Mickey_Moose
    Member
    Posts: 7545
    From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
    Registered: May 2001


    Feedback score: (3)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 144
    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-07-2016 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by 88cryan:

    All right guys, just an update for you. I successfully replaced both fusible links A and B. I properly crimped them and made them weather resistant.


    Using crimp connectors is not usually a good way - you should solder the pieces together. Only way to make sure you have a good connection in the coming years.

    I have seen way too many crimp connectors go bad in my 20+ years in the electrical/electronics field - but that is just me.

    And as theogre mentioned, a hot/warm link (or wire) is bad as you are pulling too much current through it, asking for a fire.

    [This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 03-07-2016).]

    IP: Logged
    theogre
    Member
    Posts: 32520
    From: USA
    Registered: Mar 99


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 572
    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-07-2016 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
    Using crimp connectors is not usually a good way - you should solder the pieces together. Only way to make sure you have a good connection in the coming years.

    I have seen way too many crimp connectors go bad in my 20+ years in the electrical/electronics field - but that is just me.
    Solder have problem too. Many use way too much and wicked solder can change spec's for the link. Many people don't get the joint hot enough and make "cold" joints. Cold joints may look fine to most people but will bite you down the road. (Cold joints at the factory are part of why "blue dingy thingy" dies.)

    Most pre-attach crimp are not water proof and water, road salt, etc, will rot the main and link wires. Worse, Users don't even try to water proof them by using silicon oil/grease. (Silicon won't attack plastic insulation.) I've see Inches to Yards of wire rot because 1 repair isn't water proof and water wick down the wire.

    You often can remove insulated non water proof crimps w/o cutting wire. Look at crimp area. Put pliers etc 90° to crimp zone and expand the crimp by crushing only a bit. Clean wire's insulation to remove grease etc. Then use "weather proof" crimps and heat it after to shrink the tube and melt the glue.

    Note that Iffy/Bad link to wire joints or terminals can make the link hot. Wire will be a heatsink for bad joints.
    IP: Logged
    Gall757
    Member
    Posts: 10938
    From: Holland, MI
    Registered: Jun 2010


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 90
    Rate this member

    Report this Post03-07-2016 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:

    Note that Iffy/Bad link to wire joints or terminals can make the link hot. Wire will be a heatsink for bad joints.


    Repeat for emphasis.....To the OP, you may just need to replace the existing link and install with more care.
    IP: Logged
    Previous Page | Next Page

    This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
    next newest topic | next oldest topic

    All times are ET (US)

    Post New Topic  Post A Reply
    Hop to:

    Contact Us | Back To Main Page

    Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
    PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery
    Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



    Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock