Trying to diagnose some ignition problems that cropped up. Until now, my Fiero was completely reliable with no issues.
Car died on me in my driveway. No spark (at all). After some poking around, I thought I identified my issue: A broken rotor.
However, after my new cap/rotor arrived, the problem wasn't resolved. The rotor definitely needed to be replaced, but it was presumably somehow still working when I removed it (it wasn't wobbling, surprisingly), and wasn't my root cause (but it did set me back several days).
I assumed it was ICM related and testing a spare and getting intermittent results (on both ICMs). Car would occasionally start, and seem to run okay, then I try to start again, and no spark.
I pulled out a multimeter and the shop manual, eventually settling a bad pick-up coil. I ordered a whole new distributor (Cardone 84-1633), which seems to be generally regarded as a better design than the OEM distributor (with the pick-up coil accessible from the top, saving me some trouble in summer 2040)... Replaced the o-ring with the high-temperature part before installation, and put the cap back in approximately the correct orientation. After some initial fiddling to ensure the correct orientation, it starts every time, without fail.
I jumpering the two OBD pins to set the timing, and timed the engine to 10°. I'm assuming currently that the timing mark is either correct, or very close. Attempting to move the timing too far away from 10° makes the engine sound like it's struggling to stay alive, and the tach dips noticeably.
However, even when it's right at 10°, there's still the occasional sputter or pop. I tried at 9°, 11°, same.
I removed my paperclip and started the car. It runs enough to drive home (It had died last at my parent's house), and sounded "okay", but it's still sputtering a bit. It's particularly noticeable when cruising at 2000-2500 rpm. I live 2km from my parents, so it wasn't a long drive in this state.
I decided to go ahead and do my plugs and wires (which I had planned to do regardless). I carefully got all six replaced with Champion (3018?) plugs. I did not get the wires done, as I didn't realize the wires I ordered needed to be trimmed and terminated. Hopefully I can figure out how to do that tomorrow (and which of the three styles of caps should be used...).
At this point, the car is still running the same. Occasional sputtering. According to my eye on the timing light, it seems to be an occasional miss (no flash), and seems to happen occasionally on all cylinders. My eye is not fast enough to see a missed flash on the ignition coil wire itself, so that presumably means only one cylinder is missing at a time (i'd probably notice two or three flashes out sequentially).
I tried my spare Ignition Coil at this point, with no change. I put the original back on.
Next step is wires. If that fixes everything, great. If not, then I'm pretty much out of ideas.
Any suggestions on what else to check?
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 08-12-2015).]
Also, for fun, here's my plugs. Other than the external rust, they don't look too bad to me (but this is the first time I've ever changed spark plugs before. So what would I know...)
5 3 1:
6 4 2:
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 08-12-2015).]
I carefully got all six replaced with Champion (3018?) plugs.
I hope you put anti-seize on them. You'll know why the next time you change plugs.
If you were a long time member here, you'd never admit to using Champion spark plugs.
quote
Originally posted by seq:
I did not get the wires done, as I didn't realize the wires I ordered needed to be trimmed and terminated. Hopefully I can figure out how to do that tomorrow (and which of the three styles of caps should be used...).
Get the wires in and we can go from there. One thing I might suggest though, since you need to "build" the wires, is to do a resistance test on them when you're done to make sure you did each wire correctly.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-12-2015).]
Originally posted by Patrick:If you were a long time member here, you'd never admit to using Champion spark plugs.
Is there actually an issue with champion plugs? Or is it just an elitest thing
These plugs were actually found in a box of car parts that belonged to my uncle, so I didn't go out of my way to acquire them. Presumably, he had purchased them for his Fiero, though it's possible they also fit his other car.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Get the wires in and we can go from there. One thing I might suggest though, since you need to "build" the wires, is to do a resistance test on them when you're done to make sure you did each wire correctly.
Sounds like a good idea, considering I've never done this before (I write software. How did I get into fixing hardware?) I assume the correct resistance is either stamped on the insulation, or in the documentation for the wires? Is there a general target
Would this also be a worthwhile test to perform on the outgoing wires? I suppose that would show breaks, but not weakened insulation. I'm making an uninformed assumption that the spark isn't jumping through the insulation, as I'd presumably still register a spark on the timing light. I have it clamped pretty close to the distributor, so jumping there is unlikely.
I've also just read some posts (including some information backed by theogre) that suggest the tach filter can cause issues. Granted, if you start going down the rabbit hole of all remote possibilities, you'll come across everything from ground straps, to vacuum leaks. Random trial and error would be silly. That said, I'll try disconnecting the tach filter anyway, because it literally won't waste any extra time. But I don't expect results from it.
Just saw your edit with the link. I could always swap them again. That said, I pulled champions out of this. They were installed before I bought the car, and I've put 25000km on them myself. They're presumably still functional.
I'm not going to write in all-caps to defend them, though. If they don't work, I'll replace them.
Alright, pulled my coil wire, and checked the resistance. 2.97 kΩ. That's 2970 Ω Seems high for a 12" wire.
Spark Wire 1 reads 5.8 kΩ.
One of the MSD cables, out of the box with the one factory end (that I cut off, as it was the wrong end for the ignition coil) reads 126.9 Ω. NOT kΩ. So these new cables seem like a significant improvement!
Crimping the cables wasn't too hard to figure out, once I figured out which ends (dual-crimp) and caps I needed.
My new ignition coil wire reads just under the MSD rated 50Ω/foot
Wired up the rest. Most wires were about 75-85Ω, one was 95Ω, and one was 102Ω. Considering these are about 30 times lower than the previous cables, I wasn't too worried.
While I was at it, I also replaced the cardone rotor & cap with the ones I purchased last week (before replacing the whole distributor). I noticed the metal element on the rotor was significantly shorter, and left quite a gap to the pins on the cap. Additionally, the pins seemed like they didn't hold the wires as tight (they wouldn't pop off, but didn't feel like they were firmly attached).
The rear wires could stand to be tidied up a bit, but at least they won't touch anything for now.
So, moment of truth: Start it up, and still running poorly.
There's a fiero gathering this Saturday I was looking forward too, but its starting to look like I won't be able to make it.
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 08-12-2015).]
So, moment of truth: Start it up, and still running poorly.
I know you've suspected the ignition... but let's try something else. Beg borrow or steal a fuel pressure tester gauge. You want to see not only what the fuel pressure is while the engine is running, but you also want to see how long the system holds the pressure after the engine is turned off.
Do you have a sound bite of the car running? I had a similar problem spent $$$ on dis, Coil, wires, plugs, injectors, fuel pressure reg, Come to find out it was a broken valve spring.
Do you have a sound bite of the car running? I had a similar problem spent $$$ on dis, Coil, wires, plugs, injectors, fuel pressure reg, Come to find out it was a broken valve spring.
I was in a rush to get to the office (I'm the only one in today), so this may not be the best video.
I know you've suspected the ignition... but let's try something else. Beg borrow or steal a fuel pressure tester gauge. You want to see not only what the fuel pressure is while the engine is running, but you also want to see how long the system holds the pressure after the engine is turned off.
Difficult to tell from listening to a video, but to me there's more of an occasional mechanical "rattling" sound than an ignition miss.
It's definitely a poor video, unfortunately. The pop sound from the exhaust is more pronounced when the engine is warmer. I heard it this morning in person, though not as much as last night when I came in. The camera seemed to not pick that up. I have an external microphone I can attempt to use.
If I had to describe the noise, it's almost like when you're revving fairly high, and let of the gas and get that slightly backfireish pop as your engine slows down. Except less frequently, and at idle.
The mechanical rattling noise I couldn't hear in person. I didn't notice that until I got to work and was uploading the video to youtube.
If I had to describe the noise, it's almost like when you're revving fairly high, and let of the gas and get that slightly backfireish pop as your engine slows down. Except less frequently, and at idle.
The mechanical rattling noise I couldn't hear in person. I didn't notice that until I got to work and was uploading the video to youtube.
It was very pronounced when you let off the gas at the 4:00 mark. Whatever it is doesn't sound normal to me, although it may or may not be a serious issue.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-13-2015).]
It was very pronounced when you let off the gas at the 4:00 mark. Whatever it is doesn't sound normal to me, although it may or may not be a serious issue.
I bought a mechanic's stethescope at princess auto, but haven't used it yet. I could probably try to isolate the location of the noise with that.
What condition is your cat in? It reminds me of the sound of a cat breaking up. Perhaps it temporarily plugged up your exhaust which led to your engine dying earlier and/or not running quite right.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-13-2015).]
What condition is your cat in? It reminds me of the sound of a cat breaking up. Perhaps it temporarily plugged up your exhaust which led to your engine dying earlier.
It's possible. I'm not sure of it's condition other than "it's there", and not sure how I check it.
Well, I'm possibly a moron who causes his own problems. Possibly not. Time will prove the level of my stupidity.
I spent all evening after work doing testing. I'll detail it, then tell you why none of it might matter.
Fuel Pressure
Rented a fuel pressure tester from Canadian Tire.
Key on, it goes right to 40-psi, then drops. Initially somewhat fast, but with a slowing over time. I think after 2 minutes it was at 29psi, where it seemed to stick around (or at least drop very, very slowly). I'll have better numbers when I pull the video. When running, it stays right at 39psi.
There's no gas leaking anywhere externally. Does this indicate an injector leaking?
The rattle when coming off throttle
There's a rattle on the exhaust near the elbow after the cat. It rattles a bit when the exhaust gets to shaking.
More noticeably, revving the engine caused the heat shield on the cross-over pipe to rattle and make contact at the rear (near the EGR & coil) possibly explaining the noise on the video. I removed the screw that joins it to the coil heat shield so i could get a wrench on the distributor bolt. Without that screw, the whole end of the heat shield can flop around (the cut-out for the EGR ruins the rigidity of the whole rear of the heat shield). When idling it isn't too bad, but revving can cause some more movement. I hadn't noticed it because I was in the car when revving.
I'll put the screw back on tomorrow.
Catalytic Converter
I don't hear anything loose in the cat. I knew it was installed incorrectly, but I never had much reason to inspect it. Mine is after-market, and looks identical to your broken cat above. However, mine is mounted too far toward the elbow from the Y-pipe. Because it's not lined up with the cut-out in the cradle, it was installed vertically to clear the frame. Meaning the lowest part of my car is the crimped flange on the cat's heat shield. It is bent to **** along that flange. Nothing "loose" inside, at least from hitting it with my hand.
It was also welded on, basically into the corner. If I wanted to replace it, there isn't enough room for a universal (or Rodney's) clamp-on. The Fiero Store cat kit comes with a new pipe with corner & flange, so I think I'd have to go that route when i replace it.
Spark plugs & Timing
I used an in-line spark tester, and found that I wasn't missing any sparks with A/B jumped. That's good. I Thought I was intermittently missing spark, but I think it's just the timing gun. It had a repair due to some idiot letting it touch an exhaust header. It's possible it misses some sparks? I couldn't reliably reproduce a problem when I tried...
Adjusted timing as far as 28°. Engine ran still, but rough. Adjusted back to about 4°, and it starts sounding rough again. Considering those with slipped harmonic balancers find they have to time with really high numbers (and the ECM can add another 20°(?) on top when running in normal mode), this leads me to believe my timing marks haven't moved (at least not much).
Pulled the plugs on 3 & 5. I assumed they were pre-gapped, they are at .25. When I was at Canadian Tire, I bought a tool to adjust the gap. The plugs bent the tool, so it's going back tomorrow. I'll pull and re-gap all the plugs. Lesson learned. I understand they should be at .45, based on other comments on PFF. I didn't check the manual. I think it says .30. Some say .60 with good wires and coil? I've got the MSD ignition coil (mainly because it came with the car).
While I had 3 & 5 open, I pulled fuses for fuel pump & ecm, and disconnected ignition coil, and did a quick compression test. Got about 150 on each. When I re-gap, I'll do a full compression test on all cylinders.
Gas
I took it for a drive, and there's still some popping. Combined with my pre-existing hunting idle, it's a lovely combination though I'm sure nobody else really notices anyway.
Stopped in for gas. Put 15L in. Drove around for a bit and I swear it's a little bit better. Placebo? Bad gas? Could I possibly, combined with everything above, also have had shitty gas?
I'll have to think about... hmmm..
Am I a massive idiot?
So, here's where I sat down to really think. Possibly for the first time all week!
I record all my gas purchases in an app on my phone, which tells me fuel mileage, etc. When entering this 15L fill-up, I noted I had really shitty mileage, obviously, due to idling for hours (!) over the course of several days, attempting and re-attempting to get a proper timing.
My last tank of gas was 39L. In a ~45L tank.. Almost a whole tank. Wait a minute. Lets actually sit down, and go over the actual timeline. This actually would have been handy to do before now...
Basically: Two weeks ago, car ran fine. Not a single problem. Since then, I've been dealing with problem after problem. So, upon review, here's the actual order of events, with my current thoughts in red.
Tank near empty. Put 39L in. Drive ~50km home. Car running very poorly when I get home. Maybe my only problem was bad gas?!?
Pull distributor. Find broken rotor. Order & replace rotor. While removing rotor parts, clean off some of that loose, flakey rust. No spark when new cap/rotor installed While obviously broken, the rotor might have been still working. Could I have de-magnetized the coil/reluctor when cleaning? AUGH!
Replace distributor. Time engine. Running like crap Now that I think about it, THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL PROBLEM. HOW DID I NOT THINK OF THIS? Possibly because it took a few days for the rotor, then a few days for the distributor, and it was now >1 week since the problem started. I'm deep in break/fix, not looking at the whole picture.
**** around with timing for a few days. Read horror stories about moving timing marks, etc. Start thinking that this is a lot harder than it actually is.
Replace Plugs & wires, no change Granted, I wanted to do this anyway, and already had the parts on-hand. But it slowed me down a few days
Conclusion
I'm possibly a massive idiot, and unintentionally broke things because of bad gas.
I'm not going to come out and say it is a gas problem until I can run the tank down and replace it with fresh gas (from somewhere else). But I'm feeling at least a little bit hopeful.
If it was, while annoying, I'm not too upset. I didn't really throw too much money at the problem, and I feel like I've learned something this week. Plus:
Broken rotor was a time bomb, honestly. 25-33% of the base was missing. Rather get that done at home, than have it fail on the side of the road.
Never changed a distributor before. I'll accept the cost here in exchange for learning something new. That said, reluctor was very rusty. And if I broke it by brushing it off, maybe it wasn't long for the world either?
Plug wires I've been putting off because I didn't know how to terminate them. Glad I finally got the kick in the pants to get it done, even if it turns out to be unrelated.
So, I'm going to try to drive it to work tomorrow. I drove it for about an hour today after filling the tank, and it "felt" almost normal. I'd like to try and empty out more of the tank. Maybe an additive would help?
Any additive suggestions? Maybe one that also cleans my possibly unrelated leaky injector?
Well, that may not have been the cause. Not for lack of wishing it was, though.
Used up a tank of gas. Required stopping and attempting to time by ear on the side of the road. Not ideal. Also replaced the ICM that came with the cardone distributor with the "GM" stamped unit (AC Delco?) that was on the old distributor. That seemed to make a bit of a difference, but we were not in a position to do a proper timing in a Tim Hortons parking lot. Parked the car since Saturday.
Decided today to do a compression test. Since I'd have all the plugs out, I might as well drop a few extra bucks and replace the Champion 3018 plugs with AC Delco R42TS plugs that seem to be suggested. Purchased from the local part store.
After 2-3 cranks, cylinders 1,2,3,5,6 go straight to 150psi. Only attaching one photo:
For cylinder 4, after 2-3 cranks, it was at about 110. Another 2 cranks got it to 130. Maybe this is contributing/responsible? Crap.
Installed five r42ts plugs. The part store helpfully included a single r42lts. ****. Have to wait until tomorrow now.
In the past, this same store has given me incorrect air and oil filters, and now a single incorrect spark plug. Always discovered when I've got the car apart. Of the other two part stores nearby, one had "never heard of" break-in oil, and the other has to order everything from their warehouse (invariably the one in Montréal) and wants to charge me a shipping markup. I should have just ordered from rockauto.
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 08-18-2015).]
I kind of left this. I've been busy at work, between some project go-lives and a rush office move.
Anyway, took some time today to try the suggested seafoam on the car. Since I was loosing daylight (and I didn't want to annoy the neighbours with smoke), I went down to a Home Depot parking lot (they close early on Sunday), and set up under a parking lot light. I called my Dad to join me, so I'm not stranded
While we had some decent light, and it wasn't obnoxiously hot/humid at the same time, we decided to play with the timing. Turns out, I might not have had the timing as right as I thought. We finally got it running somewhat smooth with the timing mark at around 2° - 0°. Not my photo, (and I believe this is supposed to be TDC) but this is basically what my timing looked like while running (with the two pins jumpered):
Interestingly, my dirty harmonic balancer is not as dirty as I thought. With the timing so retarded, I noticed the dirt actually had a hard line in it. It's like once upon a time somebody had filled in the entire range of the bracket (from about 12°/14° through the timing mark) in white. I tried lining that up with the bracket, and the engine runs significantly better.
I still haven't got the problem entirely fixed. It was smooth in the parking lot, but still bucked slightly on the road. It also stalled whenever I came to a stop, but I'm not sure if that's a "drive until it re-learns idle" thing. Either way, I've got some slight adjusting to do (does the white block supposed to line up with 10°? With the braket? Who knows).
I'll refrain from jumping to conclusions (again).
Most folks complaining of a moved harmonic balancer seem to say they need to set timing more advanced, not less. So, is it possible that I have the wrong harmonic balancer? And at some point, a previous owner marked it up to compensate?
Well, just to resurrect my dead thread for my non-dead issue.
I think I had (well, technically "have", since I'm not quite running yet) a few issues. I'm not sure if a whole bunch of almost-broken parts can all push each other over the edge, but that's possibly what happened to me.
Anyway, I ended up giving up taking it to a garage around the corner from me. They seemed like decent folk when I've dealt with them before. They've got a shop drag car. They seem to work on a few classics. So i was hopeful that they could figure out a problem without a computer telling them. Turns out the answer is no. They replaced a few sensors, but ultimately just sat on the car for two weeks, but they promised they'd look at it "tomorrow".
I wasn't overly impressed by their attention to detail when I showed up:
Luckily they missed the coolant tube. Unluckily, they also missed anything resembling a frame. they're jacked up by only plastic. A guy was under that! I saw the car sitting off level from across the room, but apparently some plastic body cladding is good enough to stand under.
Anyway, I paid them for the sensors, they didn't charge me for "labour", and I took the car home. Busy with work, I barely had time to look at it. Come winter, my Dad put his Fiero in storage so I could put mine in my parent's garage and work on it over the winter. Turns out I don't like working in the cold, so not much got done.
With Watkins Glen opening weekend on the horizon, I decided I needed to buckle down and figure this out. After some thinking, some discussion, and some argumentative persuasion, my Dad convinced me to check out the timing chain. We decided to do this without dropping the engine, since we don't quite have enough room in the garage (and have never done that before).
Anyway, after some cramped manoeuvring, and angry exclamations (seriously, WHY TORX BOLTS?!?), we got the cover off. Behold:
Some things to note:
Looks like a lot of slack. Keep in mind that there is even more slack than it looks, because the chain is actually hanging below the crank gear, not really in firm contact. Oddly enough, it appears it has not skipped a tooth. Somehow. Video of the slack is on youtube
The chain tensioner is broken in the top-right, and bottom left.
I'll hold off on more "AHA!" claims until it's actually back together and working. But it's looking damn likely this is why my timing was jumping back and forth. I've never timed a car before, and have no frame of reference. I assumed that was normal. After "timing" the car, it would eventually idle "okay", but absolutely stumble on any throttle input. So yeah..
Here's the new timing chain, gears (both), and tensioner for comparison. I forgot to take an actual photo, so this is a screen capture from a video of the new set.
Also for fun, here's a side by side of the tensioners. A careful eye will detect the old one on the left.
The bottom-left corner from the above photos:
The top-right corner from the above photos:
As it stands now, I've got to install my new timing gasket and old timing cover, then a new water pump and gasket (because I might as well change this while it's already off).
I'm also taking advantage of this to replace the engine shock (thanks Rodney for making these), and oil pressure sender. My pressure sender is near the oil filter. Is this stock for an 87, or relocated to the 88 location? I'm a little unclear. The sender is the old-style. I've ordered an 88-style replacement, but forgot the replacement connector -- Doh!
Hopefully I'll have the timing cover on this week, and fingers crossed, I'll be taking the Fiero to Watkins Glen next week.
Just a friendly warning: Rockauto lists the Fel-Pro TCS45828 gasket set for the Fiero. Unfortunately, it includes an anti-clockwise water pump gasket. The Fiero water pump is clockwise. I've sent that information back to Rock Auto.
The water pump came with it's own gasket. I've used it.
Seq, why do the original sprockets and chain look sort of... rusty? I would've thought that everything under the timing cover would've been slimy, covered with old oil.
I'm hoping you don't have other engine issues that might've led to the chain and guides being so badly worn.
Seq, why do the original sprockets and chain look sort of... rusty? I would've thought that everything under the timing cover would've been slimy, covered with old oil.
I can't explain the rusty look in the photos, but they're not rusty in person. They were quite oily when removed.
Have you checked your tach filter? Mine got loose one and if it isn't well grounded your tach will jump a bit but the more apparent problem is an intermittent miss and lack of power when accelerating. I ended up replacing the fuel filter and messing with the timing a bit before I found the tach filter just hanging by it's wire. Disconnected it and the problem went away. Bolted it down tight and reconnected and has been fine since.
I hope your new timing chain fixes your problem, but if it doesn't try this. Attach a good vacuum gauge to the intake manifold and observe the vacuum at idle, if the needle is wildly swinging back and forth, you either could have a broken valve spring, as was mentioned in an earlier thread, or a rocker stud could have broken.
To check for a severely plugged exhaust system, give the throttle a quick blip with your hand. You should be able to get the vacuum to momentarily spike down to zero or very close to zero. If the vacuum stays high 2, 3, 4, or 5", then there is a really good chance you have a plugged exhaust. You will not only need to replace the catalyst, but the muffler as well because debris from the catalyst will plug the muffler too. If you can do it, replace the catalyst with a straight pipe. Good luck and I hope this helps.
.....My pressure sender is near the oil filter. Is this stock for an 87, or relocated to the 88 location? I'm a little unclear. The sender is the old-style. I've ordered an 88-style replacement, but forgot the replacement connector -- Doh!
Cars w/o ac will have pressure sensor by oil filter, cars with ac will have remote sensor located up by the water pump/thermostat/csi and fan switch sensor area.
Originally posted by PDE: Attach a good vacuum gauge to the intake manifold and observe the vacuum at idle, if the needle is wildly swinging back and forth, you either could have a broken valve spring, as was mentioned in an earlier thread, or a rocker stud could have broken.
Where would you connect the gauge to? Where the MAP sensor T connects to the intake?
quote
Originally posted by PDE:To check for a severely plugged exhaust system, give the throttle a quick blip with your hand. You should be able to get the vacuum to momentarily spike down to zero or very close to zero. If the vacuum stays high 2, 3, 4, or 5", then there is a really good chance you have a plugged exhaust. You will not only need to replace the catalyst, but the muffler as well because debris from the catalyst will plug the muffler too. If you can do it, replace the catalyst with a straight pipe. Good luck and I hope this helps.
I ended up replacing the catalytic converter during my initial troubleshooting last year. The old one looked fine (not broken or clogged).
quote
Originally posted by f85gtron:
Cars w/o ac will have pressure sensor by oil filter, cars with ac will have remote sensor located up by the water pump/thermostat/csi and fan switch sensor area.
Well, got it all bolted up, reconnected, and filled. Started the engine, and set the timing (wasn't far off). Seemed to run okay. Better than it has in recent memory, anyway. Also had no problems starting, while it's always been a bit touchy when putting it in gear. So yay?
Of course, since it was driving so well, we went for a bit of a drive -- then it got rough. Very rough.
Eventually limped back home, and checked the timing light. Cylinder 1 is bang on 10°, cylinder 4 is as well, when it fires.
Checked each cylinder for spark now. Cylinders 1,2,3,5 seemed solid. Cylinder 4 was missing frequently (sometimes for several revolutions), while cylinder 6 was better (but not perfect).
So I packed in for the night, somewhat frustrated.
I'm thinking if it was the (new) ICM, it would spread misses around to other cylinders. Ditto for the coil. It seems to be focused on those two cylinders, and was mainly noticeable once it got warm (and/or once we actually got to open roads. Could be either). Keep in mind, this is a new distributor and icm, cap & rotor, plugs and wires.
I think my next step would be to pull plugs 4 and 6, ensure they're seated correctly and the threads are clean. I noticed when changing the plugs that #6 in particular had a lot of rust around it (probably from water dropping straight down).
Any other suggestions?
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 04-08-2016).]
Checked each cylinder for spark now. Cylinders 1,2,3,5 seemed solid. Cylinder 4 was missing frequently (sometimes for several revolutions), while cylinder 6 was better (but not perfect).
Coincidence... or what?
quote
Originally posted by seq:
After 2-3 cranks, cylinders 1,2,3,5,6 go straight to 150psi. Only attaching one photo:
For cylinder 4, after 2-3 cranks, it was at about 110. Another 2 cranks got it to 130. Maybe this is contributing/responsible? Crap.
Buy a new ignition coil and rotor see what happens.
Neither the ICM or coil have a difference as to which plug it is firing. But differences in the spark plug, compression, wires can make some plugs fire at higher voltages than others. This normally isn't a problem. Having the throttle open more also causes the plugs to need a higher voltage to fire.
Your ignition coil could have compromised insulation. Running the engine with a spark plug wire off could be the cause of this problem. Having a spark plug wire off means the voltage on the ignition system will rise to it's maximum. This can cause even a new coil to have it's insulation fail. Once a coil's insulation fails, it leaves a hole in the insulation, and will fail at lower voltages. Never run an engine with electronic ignition with the spark plug wires off. Note also - the coil, with it's compromised insulation, can send the spark into the ICM causing it to fail, and cause multiple ICMs to fail.
This can also happen at the rotor. If you didn't remove the rust from the shaft that caused the last rotor to crack, that rust might have cracked the new rotor. Rust takes up more space than the metal it came from. If the rotor went on hard, and you forced it on, this could be the problem. Look for a black spot on the bottom of the rotor inside the hole for the distributor shaft.
Buy a new ignition coil and rotor see what happens.
Neither the ICM or coil have a difference as to which plug it is firing. But differences in the spark plug, compression, wires can make some plugs fire at higher voltages than others. This normally isn't a problem. Having the throttle open more also causes the plugs to need a higher voltage to fire.
Your ignition coil could have compromised insulation. Running the engine with a spark plug wire off could be the cause of this problem. Having a spark plug wire off means the voltage on the ignition system will rise to it's maximum. This can cause even a new coil to have it's insulation fail. Once a coil's insulation fails, it leaves a hole in the insulation, and will fail at lower voltages. Never run an engine with electronic ignition with the spark plug wires off. Note also - the coil, with it's compromised insulation, can send the spark into the ICM causing it to fail, and cause multiple ICMs to fail.
This can also happen at the rotor. If you didn't remove the rust from the shaft that caused the last rotor to crack, that rust might have cracked the new rotor. Rust takes up more space than the metal it came from. If the rotor went on hard, and you forced it on, this could be the problem. Look for a black spot on the bottom of the rotor inside the hole for the distributor shaft.
All of this sounds very reasonable. Today I:
* swapped out the coil for my new one (former spare) * Removed, inspected, and reinserted plug #4. Gap was fine, threads were fine, socket looked fine (from what I can tell from above with one of those extend-o-mirrors). Looks like it has about 10km on it, which is about right. * Installed new tach filter from Rodney. Note: I had the old tach filter unplugged as per theogre's instructions on timing. So while it may or may not have been bad as well, it wasn't connected.
I then took it out for a drive. Seemed to work well. I Went for a bit of a longer drive. No issues. Ended up driving about 120km today, perfectly smooth sailing. I am a happy camper.
I have no idea what the order of events was here. I know the pickup coil was bad. During diagnosis/repair, could the coil have been damaged? Sure, I suppose. With the combination of sloppy chain and partially-failed coil caused me no end of problems timing it. But the now-damaged coil prevented it from running smoothly when warm (only reason I can guess it would run fine when I'm leaving the house, but die on the road).
While solidly knocking on every piece of wood in the room, I'm going to say the car has moved from a "non-working" to "working" state. And I'm going to go to Watkins Glen this weekend. This is a totally responsible thing to do.
The pick up coil is inside the distributor inside the star thingy. The ignition coil is the one bolted to the engine.
Yep. When I said "I know the pickup coil was bad", I was just trying to figure out how I got here from the beginning of the thread. The whole problem started (or didn't! HA!) when my car wouldn't run last year. Pick up coil tested bad, and I had no spark at all. Plus my rotor was cracked, distributor was old-style (and very rusty). I figured it was easier to just order a new distributor.
So between then and now, I've got a new distributor (the whole stack including pickup coil), cap, rotor, icm (came with the distributor), plugs, wires, tach filter, timing chain, water pump (because why not at this point). The ignition coil was just the last link (and likely the last straw, as well -- I was starting to research 3.4 and 7730 swaps).
I briefly swapped a new ignition coil last year, but didn't immediately fix my problem (likely due to the timing problems I had due to the stretched chain). So I put the old coil back. Whether it was working then and failed during my repeated attempts to set timing, or already bad, I don't know. I didn't realize they have a "kinda sometimes" failure mode (resistance through insulation < resistance through proper spark path. Depending on variables), so I was assuming it was still working correctly.
[This message has been edited by seq (edited 04-11-2016).]
though I'm sure nobody else really notices anyway.
I would've thought that everything under the timing cover would've been slimy, covered with old oil.
