When using non staggered rims on an 88 ....what would be the correct thickness for spacers on the rear to have the same external width/look as the front?

Also any suggestions on where to buy them?

thanks....

ps for all the spacer haters

For the record, KNOW the difference between spacers and adapter/spacers. Spacers are just a flat washer with lug holes in them you put on the hub under the rim. Most thats safe with stock lugs is maybe 5/16". You can change the lugs to longer ones. Spacer/adapters are inches thick and bolt onto the stock lugs and have another set of studs in them for the wheels...they can be 4"-5" thick. I have no problems at all using spacers, its the spacer/adapters that are not good. Even race cars use spacers.

THESE are spacers
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES...y9zscCFQEaaQodjLsNZA

THESE are adapter/spacers
http://www.4wheelparts.com/...G-zscCFQGqaQo dvFwMmA

For your question, offhand I dont know the specific offsets on 88 wheels, but I think its only millimeters, so spacers (washer type) is just fine. Id guess its only 1/4" or so .

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 08-29-2015).]

Thanks for the help Roger..

gonna order some spacers 5mm thick ...that's close to 1/4 inch

[This message has been edited by fireboss (edited 08-30-2015).]

P.M. me a email address. I will get you a wheel offset giude to help you get the proper offset. I am battling a issue with my formula of it not driving right due to a improper offset. Maybe we can brainstorm together to get the right spacer for our car. I am thinking it is more than 5 mm offset that we need.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: , its the spacer/adapters that are not good. Even race cars use spacers.

Properly made and installed adapters are perfectly safe. Race cars use them too.

I wont get into the arguement over adapters. I personally know of lots of $200 each failed adapters...ive had to fix the wrecks. I might be wrong but Ive never seen adapters on any race cars. There not even legal in SCCA according to their own rule book. Id need to see the car and the prerace inspection sheet to prove its legal to me. I raced everything from super modifieds in Okla, to 80s stock cars. but never a drag car.

I'd like to add some engineering information that is commonly misunderstood. Wheels are held to the hubs with lug bolts. Lug bolts are not designed for the sole purpose of handling shear forces, in fact when properly torqued the lug bolts should experience very little, if any, shear forces. The purpose of lug bolts (+nuts) is solely to create a "normal force" (force perpendicular to the surface of contact) between the hubs and wheels. Higher torque in the lug nuts results in higher normal forces. It is this friction between the wheel and the hub (proportional to the normal force) that holds the wheels in place.


EDIT: The following adapter analysis only applies to those using Lug Bolts....obviously, regular lugs aren't threaded from the front...

For this reason, you can see why spacers are safe and adapters may not be. Even with spacers, the lugs experience the same forces regardless of the material that they are made of, and are therefore very unlikely to fail (assuming that the correct length lugs are used so that enough threads are engaged). Adapters on the other hand have additional threads for the lugs located for the new bolt pattern. These threads experience a high tensile force in order to create the high frictional forces required between the wheel to adapter, and adapter to hub. It is very common for adapters to be made out of aluminum. Any additional loads, or any flaws in the adapter can result in adapter thread failure. Therefore, aluminum spacers are fine, but if you must use adapters, ensure you buy steel adapters.

Another topic would be the affect on suspension geometry...

[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 08-31-2015).]

Neils88....thank you for a very knowledgeable statement. Many people don't understand how torque of the studs/lug nuts can affect how easily they can break....causing serious problems. Torque of the wheels is very important. To avoid seriuos issues. As well as the proper length of the stud......if wheel spacers were so dangerous.....then why do we do the grand am brake upbreade or the lebaron. The rotor hat now becomes the spacer......and thus why we use longer studs with those swaps.....right??? Makes since to me......just a thought.... Lol
Brian

quote Originally posted by Neils88: I'd like to add some engineering information that is commonly misunderstood. Any additional loads, or any flaws in the adapter can result in adapter thread failure. Therefore, aluminum spacers are fine, but if you must use adapters, ensure you buy steel adapters.

If you are going to give engineering information you should at least know what an adapter looks like. There are no threads in a adapter.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: If you are going to give engineering information you should at least know what an adapter looks like. There are no threads in a adapter.

please check his statement again...he states the adapters have threads and that is the weak point ,where as the spacers doesn't have threads so that weak point is elimated

Actually, couldahadaV8 brings up a good point. An adapter does not have threads, unless you are referring to the threads on the studs... which are not threaded into the body of the unit.

quote Originally posted by fireboss: please check his statement again...he states the adapters have threads and that is the weak point ,where as the spacers doesn't have threads so that weak point is elimated

I know what he wrote and it is wrong. THERE ARE NO THREADS IN AN ADAPTER.

Real simple........some if us are looking for some info. To help correct a problem with our cars. So somebody made a boo boo in the way they stated something. Woopidi doo......cry over spilled milk.
LIKE THE THREAD STARTED. Does anyone know what offset we need. And possibly where to get them or somebody that may make them. To those who are helpful in actually answering our question. Thank you in advance.
(And to the rest........find some milk to cry over).
I
I thought forums were here to help ........not point out when someone makes a mistake!!!!!)
Brian

quote Originally posted by bkw88: I thought forums were here to help ........not point out when someone makes a mistake!!!!!)

Seems to me everyone was trying to be helpful.

Depending on what they are, mistakes can be deadly.

No one was trying to crucify Neil. A clarification was made. No big deal.

I read all you have to say. Neil is correct, I have seen many adapters fail. Steel or aluminum. They are dangerous. I have also seen them where people us regular bolts theaded in the adapter for the new studs. That is not safe as wheel studs are hardened for a reason. And torque of a wheel is very critical.Get all your facts straight before you just try to hang somebody.
Brian
That and the W
Thread was started about wheel spacers.....not adapters.......thank you

[This message has been edited by bkw88 (edited 08-31-2015).]

quote Originally posted by bkw88: I read all you have to say. Neil is correct, I have seen many adapters fail. Steel or aluminum. They are dangerous. I have also seen them where people us regular bolts theaded in the adapter for the new studs. That is not safe as wheel studs are hardened for a reason. And torque of a wheel is very critical.Get all your facts straight before you just try to hang somebody.

The reason I can't leave this alone is because of statements like these. If someone is threading a stud into an adapter that is the same as saying someone only put on one lug nut and the wheel fell off, so obviously it is a dangerous design.

Google adapters used in autocross. It may not be officially sanctioned races, but see the loads they are putting on them without a problem. Sticky race tires and huge loads.

There is no reason properly designed and produced ones are dangerous. As for failures people have seen, I would need details of the manufacturer, the design, and the application before I would concede that they are dangerous.

Oh, and on an engineering note, friction factors are generally ignored when analyzing a bolted joint. It would be designed to take the full wheel torque on the studs. Then the friction gives you the added safety factor.

But I digress.......

[This message has been edited by couldahadaV8 (edited 08-31-2015).]

I've never seen wheel adapters where the studs thread in.

For that matter, I've never seen wheel studs that thread into the hub or rotor.

Let me say this in idiot terms for you "coulda had a v8"....... A properly designed adapter will function properly. But they are not DOT APPROVED, and what I stated is they are dangerous. The adapters I have seen fail some idiots have used a regular bolt in place of the wheel stud. And if you had a v8 Fiero. You would know what fun is........go enjoy your 4 bangers......
My time is here to help people. Not argue........you obviously have too much time on your hands

Oh yeah......the thread was started about spacers for wheels......not adapters. So maybe you could read about that in the first place.......ok.......
Brian

There is no need to get insulting when you are the one that keeps changing your tune.

"They are dangerous."

"A properly designed adapter will function properly"

You think most of the aftermarket suspension and brake parts that are added onto Fieros are all DOT approved? Wake up.

For someone who doesn't have time to argue you are doing a fine job.


I do know something about the design of highly stressed components, so when people state garbage as facts it gets to me.

I do have a V8 Fiero with adapters. You'll probably read about it in my eulogy.

There are no wheel adapters produced for any vehicle that have a DOT approved number. So get your facts straight.

Another thing to consider is the wheel bearings we have in the rear of our cars.
I believe when using a wheel with a small backset or wheel spacers it could place more of a strain on them.
The front bearings on the 88's have the same problem.
The wheels need to be as centered on the hub flange as possible, at least for racing & autocross applications.
In my opinion................

Brian, can you read (and understand) English? Did I say anywhere that adapters are DOT approved? Which facts exactly did I get wrong?

[This message has been edited by couldahadaV8 (edited 08-31-2015).]

Oh duh.......your from Canada........explains why you don't k is the DOT APPROVAL laws for the U.S. and explains a lot more. And by the way......I have proof that I have one of the nicest and best built fieros in the states.

On one other note. This thread was started for the proper wheel "Spacer" for use with wheels. If you could read you would have seen that......so y don't you, Patrick and the rest of you...go start a thread about "ADAPTERS"........ Then we will go argue there......
Brian

Spacers AND adapters have holes for the hubs studs to stick thru. Spacers have the wheel then installed and the lug nuts installed. Adapters slip over the hub studs and fasten on that hub with the lugs. Then the wheel goes onto the studs in the adapter, where new lugs hold the wheel to the adapter. Mercedes as well as other cars dont have studs, they use long threaded bolts into threaded holes in the hubs. They dont use studs and lug nuts. One of the SLs I owned had adapters on it. They used bolts to attach to the hub, and other bolts that went into the adapters threads, to hold the wheel on. First day I owned it, the hubs and bolts went in the dumpster and ordered new OEM wheels and bolts. Another one I owned had a 1/4" spacer on the fronts to move aftermarket wheels out that much to clear the calipers. Look at the above photos for pics of adapters. Whether someone uses them or not is completely up to the owner. I had one customer that insurance refused to pay the damage because they are not approved items for highway use.

As far as wheel bearings, sure they have more load when offset is deeper. My Lambo and Ferrari kits had aftermarket wheels with a 4" offset. I drove the Ferrari 100,000 miles with no wheel bearing noise or problems, and I thrashed it around a lot in corners. I didnt drive the Lambo enough before I sold it. Might make a difference on a Cadillac, but a Fiero is no heavyweight.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 08-31-2015).]

Insults are the last resort of the weak-minded when they feel powerless.

quote Originally posted by bkw88: And by the way......I have proof that I have one of the nicest and best built fieros in the states. Brian

Not only a dick , but an egotistical one at that! Awesome!

Kevin

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I wont get into the arguement over adapters. I personally know of lots of $200 each failed adapters...ive had to fix the wrecks. I might be wrong but Ive never seen adapters on any race cars. There not even legal in SCCA according to their own rule book. Id need to see the car and the prerace inspection sheet to prove its legal to me. I raced everything from super modifieds in Okla, to 80s stock cars. but never a drag car.

A lot of Porsche's come with adapters from the factory.

I have non-staggered wheels on my 88 t-top coupe, and it drives fine that way. No spacers. BTW, all 88 coupes (not GT's or Formulas) came from the factory with non-staggered wheels, with the same basic suspension (minus the rear sway bar) as the GT's and Formulas). My wheels are aftermarket, but still non-staggered.

------------------

The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play.

And a proud egotistical dick. Everyone I know calls me a po ahole.......so would you like to argue with that?????
Brian
Ok I'm goaa shut up now

[This message has been edited by bkw88 (edited 08-31-2015).]

quote Originally posted by bkw88: Oh duh.......your from Canada........explains why you don't k is the DOT APPROVAL laws for the U.S. and explains a lot more. And by the way......I have proof that I have one of the nicest and best built fieros in the states. On one other note. This thread was started for the proper wheel "Spacer" for use with wheels. If you could read you would have seen that......so y don't you, Patrick and the rest of you...go start a thread about "ADAPTERS"........ Then we will go argue there......

Are you off your meds?

Nope.....sick and tired of people starting crap on this forum. Sorry Patrick. I miss read you post earlier. Mr.couldahadav8.......got me a bit p.o.......didn't mean to offend you......
One thing that would be really nice to see out of anyone on any forum...not just here. Is to provide helpful info, instead of always pointing out when anyone makes a mistake about something.
The topic of the thread was about what spacers were needed to correct the stager, (offset) that the 88 laced wheels have when running aftermarket or pre 88 wheels. Which have the same offset.
The answer was in the first couple of posts. Someone else started calling out people for a misword or mistake.
If anyone would like to post anything about the initial topic. That would be great.
This thread wasn't about adapters in anyway. It was started for spacers, WHICH ARE PERFECTLY SAFE AND LEGAL IN THE U.S. WHEN INSTALLED PROPERLY. Which is simple to do. Like I stated earlier, why do we do the gran am upgrade.... Or lebaron .......corvette rotors.......etc. A spacer acts the same way as a floating rotor. There fore there is not an issue with using spacers.
If you want any info on how to install properly I will be happy to help. Just ask
That's what forums are for. Is to help one another not start a bunch of crap. Let's stick k to the point on things and help each other.
Brian

quote Originally posted by bkw88: Nope.....sick and tired of people starting crap on this forum. Sorry Patrick. I miss read you post earlier. Mr.couldahadav8.......got me a bit p.o.......didn't mean to offend you......

Brian, take a deep breath.

People mix and mingle the two terms "spacers" and "adapters" all the time. The reason being that adapters are often used as spacers. I use what is technically an adapter on the rear of my Formula to bring my Sunfire rims (with the wrong offset) out to where the stock wheels would normally be sitting. It's a 1" hubcentric adapter that has the same bolt pattern on both sides. It's being used as a 1" spacer. They've been on my Formula for two years, and previous to that, they were on my '84 for three years... two of those years which included their use many times for autocross (before I bought a set of wheels and tires for the track). I haven't had any issue with these adapters/spacers at all. I use a torque wrench while installing them to the hubs, and the wheels are properly torqued to the adapters. I have never found a nut loosening up.

In regards to threads in an adapter... there aren't any! And that's all that was being clarified.

Until you blew up, no one else seemed all that bothered about it. Relax!

quote Originally posted by Patrick on 10-06-2011: I run these 1" hubcentric spacers on the back of my '84. They bring my Sunfire wheels out to the edge of the fenders (instead of being tucked in too far). I've been on an autocross track (a lot of runs) since putting them on a month ago and so far I'd say they're just fine. No added vibration at high speed at all. No loosening of lug nuts occurred after being torqued down properly.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-31-2015).]

Holy smokes!!! I leave for a day and things explode over here on the happiest site on the net.

First of all, thanks to all those defended me....but I will admit my mind had wondered when I was typing that (watching TV and typing while tired) and I went off in the wrong direction when I added that analysis. I was (almost) completely wrong with respect to the adapters. When I started talking about threads, I had "lug bolts" on my brain for some reason. However, the adapters in question obviously would be using lugs that don't thread in from the front, but are inserted from the back.

My apologies to all those who got upset for one reason or another.

I do apologize Patrick. You got caught in the middle of a war. I sent you a p.m. describing in detailthe issue I have. Maybe you can help me resolve this. Thanks
Brian

I never thought my original post would turn into this.

I just wanted to swap rims from my 87 to my 88.
No different lug pattern, just like those rims and thought they would look good on my 88.

I want to use spacers, I know what they are and the differences between adapters.
They will fit the car without rubbing issues.
The car is not for racing or any kind of track events.

Simply put--I just don't like my front tires to stick out further than the rear.

I would appreciate any info of how much( a set of identical offset rims )of a difference there are.
thanks........Eric

Eric. I have been looking for the same info. I have a chart showing the offset difference between the wheels. P.M. me your email and will send to you...... Can't do pics from my phone.
Brian

quote Originally posted by Neils88: Holy smokes!!! I leave for a day and things explode over here on the happiest site on the net.

No problem and I apologize if I came on a little strong. That is for you Neils88, not for the A-hole that started throwing insults around.

Rick

[This message has been edited by couldahadaV8 (edited 09-01-2015).]

awwwww....group hug!