I have had some clutch issues recently, and I was hoping someone would have some input on what is most likely happening. I have an '87 GT V6 with a 5 speed tranny. Over the last year or so, the clutch has been slipping. I will engage the clutch (release the clutch pedal), and step on the gas a little and the RPM's will rev a little until the clutch starts to grab and the car gets going. This has gotten a little worse the last few months, but I have not driven it much for that reason. I knew that I would be looking at getting into the clutch and see what was going on. The car only has 50K miles on the original clutch and transmission, so I had some doubt that the clutch was worn out.
In some of the other threads, I have heard of a leaking rear main seal causing contamination on the clutch. I believe my rear main is leaking (drips of oil on the garage floor) , but how likely is contamination the cause of the slipping clutch? And now, today, a new issue. I was getting off the interstate and disengaged the clutch to shift to a lower gear, and I hear and/or felt a "snap" when I was pressing the clutch. Now the clutch will not disengage. I limped it to my office and she's sitting outside my office, and it's owner (me) is fairly depressed and having panic attacks...
On one of the Fiero sites (Fiero Factory???) I also saw a small entry in the clutch diagnosis area where it talked about a plastic part on the clutch arm that can crack and a part can push through resulting in not being able to disengage the clutch. Could this be the new issue I have, or does this not happen on a 87 GT?
I am getting ready to pull the transmission off, and since I am really not in my comfort zone, I am really leaning toward suspending the engine and either tilting or totally removing the cradle. Can anyone offer any advice on this method? I am fairly good with air tools and a socket wrench (replaced the alternator, EGR tube, and some hoses, etc.), but this will be the first time I have ever removed a transmission from an engine. But I have a friend that has offered to help, who used to work on race cars, and has removed and replaced dozens of transmissions and engines, so I have a little less anxiety about doing this. Also, I would like to do this myself, so I can learn to do it...also because I don't like the thought of someone else working on my "baby"...and also because money is tight and I don't think I could afford to have a mechanic work on it.
Thoughts? Advice? Suggestions? Prayers
Thanks
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 12-22-2015).]
To remove the transmission and leave the engine attached to the cradle, the engine will need to be supported. If the cradle stays in the car, it should be supported from the top.
If any oil from a rear main seel leak got onto the clutch, then yes, it will damage the clutch and cause slipping.
I don't know what "snap" sound you actually heard, but it could have also been the clutch fork breaking, or the slave seal popping. Squeeze the rubber sleeve around the slave cylinder arm, and if it feels like it's full of liquid, the slave probably popped and you need to rebuild or replace it. Also check that your clutch pedal is not bent. Check to see if you can move the fork easily by hand. Those should help diagnose some of the issues.
You definitely need to replace the clutch and pressure plate. Don't continue driving it like this because you will also burn the flywheel enough to require replacing it, too. Maybe at this point you can only have the flywheel turned or Blanchard Ground would be even better. Replace the clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing while you're in there. My recommendation is a Luk clutch package usually available at Pep Boys.
Unfortunately,I can't post a link due to using my iPhone right now..... Look in the archives for (GT clutch replacement ) posted by boysatt. You don't need to remove fuel lines,cooling lines or wiring harness to get your clutch out. Drop the rear cradle bolts and leave the front bolts alone.....follow his procedure and you can slide the tranny out through the drivers side when the rear of the cradle comes down. I can drop the rear of the cradle,pull the tranny,replace the clutch and have it all back together running in about 10 hours by myself....I just did it yesterday due to a bad shift fork.
To remove the transmission and leave the engine attached to the cradle, the engine will need to be supported. If the cradle stays in the car, it should be supported from the top.
If any oil from a rear main seel leak got onto the clutch, then yes, it will damage the clutch and cause slipping.
I don't know what "snap" sound you actually heard, but it could have also been the clutch fork breaking, or the slave seal popping. Squeeze the rubber sleeve around the slave cylinder arm, and if it feels like it's full of liquid, the slave probably popped and you need to rebuild or replace it. Also check that your clutch pedal is not bent. Check to see if you can move the fork easily by hand. Those should help diagnose some of the issues.
This is exactly how I did mine. Wasn't hard. Just time consuming. The biggest PITA was the rear cradle bolts. The frame nuts, or whatever you call those, that are welded inside the frame broke loose due to rust. BOTH OF THEM. Took some effort but I got them out.
[This message has been edited by Jason88Notchie (edited 09-01-2015).]
My rear cradle bolts did the same thing...... I cut the frame open and peeled the flap down....then I broke the cage off of the nuts and used a pipe wrench to hold the nut while I broke the bolt loose. Finished the repairs on my clutch and bolted the cradle back into position. Then I stuck my welder in there and welded the nuts to the frame now that everything was in proper position. Bent the frame back up and welded it shut then shot a coating of undercoating spray.....can't even tell it was done. I've had to drop my cradle again since welding the nuts and didn't have any issues.
Rodney Dickman offers a kit to repair the nut and cage assembly if you don't want to weld the nuts to the frame.....
[This message has been edited by MadProfessor8138 (edited 09-01-2015).]
It's much easier to drop the rear of the cradle and slide the tranny out then to support the engine from the top and try to slide it out. Messing with the rear cradle bolts can be a pain due to the frame nuts issue....unless you're lucky or you've already fixed that problem. But having a front cradle bolt fighting you is a whole other story....that's a pain in the *ss and it generally doesn't end well. For me....just dropping the rear of the cradle and leaving the front bolts alone is the quickest and easiest way. Just use two bolts that have had the heads cut off to slide tranny back into position when putting it back together. I've had to do it a few times now and it has worked out good for me using this method.
I will read through with my best attention to detail. I just had the tow truck drop off the car into my garage, so it is time to get to work. Should I order a clutch kit now, or is it best to see what I have in there first before I get parts? The clutch master and slave cylinders seem to be moving fine, but the clutch is not engaged at all now, I am now worried what I will find in there. I am hoping for a bad TOB, but I assume it could be a broken clutch fork. But I have also heard that bad clutch forks are rare.
Is it difficult to find a replacement clutch/shift fork? How hard are they to replace?
I may also find a leaky rear main seal as the culprit that started all of this. Will I be able to replace it without pulling the motor all the way out?
I bought my car knowing that the clutch had an issue. When I dropped the tranny I found that the shift fork shaft was seized in the bushings. With a little effort and patience I got the shaft broke loose and moving freely with no problems. I replaced the clutch anyways and put everything back together. The car ran great until 850.9 miles later......the clutch would not engage smoothly. Pulled everything apart for the second time and found that one of the fingers on the shift fork had slipped behind the throw out bearing causing it to bind. After inspecting the shift fork shaft I noticed wear on the fingers. I should have replaced it all while I had it torn apart the first time.
My advice is this: while you have everything apart,replace the clutch,shift fork shaft and its bushings. The clutch is around $100,shift fork shaft and bushings from The Fiero Store is around $65 and the tool to replace the bushings from Rodney Dickman is $14. So......for less than $200 you can have your issue resolved and enjoy driving your car. Replace it all at one time unless you just like dropping your cradle.
Replacing the shift fork shaft and bushings shouldn't take more than 10 minutes once you get the tranny out of the car. Hammer the old bushings out with the tool and tap the new bushings in with the tool.....it's so simple that a caveman can do it....lol
Don't buy any parts yet, unless you are sure you can return them if you find you don't need them after you find the real problem, it could be just oil on the clutch or the last noise could have been a cable snapping or any number of other things.
Never buy parts until you are sure you need them. Edit to add I wonder if brake clean would clean off a clutch or just turn it into mush? That said if it is just oil on the clutch plate you do need to fix that while you are in there as well or you are just going to have the same problem again down the road even with a brand new clutch.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 09-02-2015).]
Once oil or other petroleum products are introduced to the clutch it is toast. No amount of chemicals will remove the oil from the fibers of the clutch without destroying it. Think of it this way....brake pads and clutch discs are quite similar in composition and actually perform in similar manners....if your brake pads were soaked with oil would you trust your life to them doing their job just because you sprayed them off with some cleaner??? You can never get all of the oil out of the fibers....
I only suggested replacing the items as cheap insurance....from what I deduced by reading the OP's original post,he has never dropped a cradle before and probably won't want to do it again anytime soon. Even if everything seems to be fine after he gets the tranny out...if I were in his position,I would replace the parts anyways....they are high wear items and they will need to be replaced at some point,so why not do it when he has the opportunity? Soooooo......he can pull everything apart and then put it all back together and wonder all the time how far along the clock is towards him repeating the whole procedure again. Or he can replace the parts for less than $200 when he has the opportunity,start his clock at zero and enjoy driving his car knowing he has many miles before he will need to pull it apart again. That's only the opinion of a guy that just dropped his cradle twice within 850 miles due to a shift fork that looked good but was actually bad....but what do I know.....
[This message has been edited by MadProfessor8138 (edited 09-02-2015).]
I just went through all of this in the past couple of weeks. I did not want to disconnect a bunch of harnesses and stuff that may not have been done in many years! On advice from Forum members, I tilted the cradle, removed the drivers side strut, and removed the trans from that side- not a big deal. My 5 speed was an Isuzu ( mated to a 2.6 V6). The problem was the clutch disc had worn into the flywheel, and only about a third of the disc surface was actually in contact. I had bought a clutch pack from Autozone a year ago, only to find out my parts looked different, and I needed separate pressure plate, disc, and throughout bearing. Instead, I had everything resurfaced for about 1000 Mexican pesos ( about 75 US dollars) , put it all back in, and it performs flawlessly. I did get a helper to reinstall the transmission, and NEEDED it! Took my time, and would use this method again. Try to loosen the front cradle bolts a bit, so you don't torque the bushings, when tilting it down. Good luck!
My advice is this: while you have everything apart,replace the clutch,shift fork shaft and its bushings. The clutch is around $100,shift fork shaft and bushings from The Fiero Store is around $65 and the tool to replace the bushings from Rodney Dickman is $14. So......for less than $200 you can have your issue resolved and enjoy driving your car. Replace it all at one time unless you just like dropping your cradle.
I think I found the bushings on the Fiero Store web site and the tool on Rodney's site, but do you have the part numbers and/or links so I know I am getting the correct parts?
The shift fork that I found on the Fiero store web site seems really expensive (233 bucks!!!), and I really don't know which transmission I have (Isuzu, Getrag, etc.) yet, which could make a difference for certain clutch kits. Also, the clutch forks I found on most auto parts web sites looks nothing like the one on the Fiero Store web site, but it would be nice to find a less expensive alternative. Do you know of a source for the shift fork that will work the 1987 V6, or am I looking at the wrong one on the Fiero Store site?
I have read some postings that recommend using long bolts to slide the tranny off and on with. Does anyone know the specs on the bolt threads? I would like to start looking for these now, so I can have them ready when I begin working on the clutch.
I also just purchased the factory service manual off of ebay for $27, as the FieroNews site did not have the FSM for download as some postings seemed to indicate.
I read your original post again and realized that you are running a 5 speed and I am running a Muncie 4 speed. Yes,the price of the 5 speed shift fork shaft is quite a bit more. I apologize for not catching that when I first read your post....I quoted the price of the shift fork shaft for my 4 speed.
Do some searching on Google to see if you can locate a shift fork shaft at a reasonable price if none of the members can point you in the right direction....
I will have to check on the bolt sizes for the tranny as it has been a while since I bought them..... Off the top of my head I think they are....... 12mm x 10 1.75 coarse thread.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to take your shift fork shaft to a transmission shop and have them look it over for you once you get it out of the car......if it's good then I would just replace the bushings and be done with it. Just a thought....
For the bolts to allign the transaxle, I just used two old rear cradle bolts, and cut the heads off. There is info on this website for figuring out which 5 speed you have, before ordering parts.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to take your shift fork shaft to a transmission shop and have them look it over for you once you get it out of the car......if it's good then I would just replace the bushings and be done with it. Just a thought....
As my daddy taught me "Don't fix it, if it ain't broke..."
I will post pictures if there is any doubt about re-using the shift fork or replacing it.
Are there any good write-ups on removing and replacing the rear main seal? I assume that I can just unbolt the flywheel and find the seal right there..? Then pull out the old one... How? With what kind of tool? Will needle nose pliers work? Then press in the new one???
To answer a couple of your questions---What transmission do you have.
The Isuzu transmission has both cables coming over the top, side by side. They often interfere with the air intake tube. The end of the transmision case will be smooth aluminum. The slave cylinder retainer nuts will be on the right side of it's mounting bracket. The Getrag has one cable coming in from the bottom while the other comes in slightly from the top and underneath the air intake tube. The end of the case will have a flat metal plate. Test it with a magnet. The slave cylinder retainer nuts will be on the left side of the slave's mounting flange.
Unless it's been swapped out by a previous owner, it should be a Getrag. If it isn't, you'll need to buy your clutch and pressure plate separately from your throwout bearing.
You can pull one of the transmission bolts, take it to a good auto parts store, like NAPA or maybe even a big hardware store and match up the threads.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-05-2015).]
Are there any good write-ups on removing and replacing the rear main seal? I assume that I can just unbolt the flywheel and find the seal right there..? Then pull out the old one... How? With what kind of tool? Will needle nose pliers work? Then press in the new one???
Actually the easiest way to pull the seal I have found was with a regular flat screwdriver and just pry it out, find a socket the same size as the outer seal ring and put a extension on the socket from the inside and give it a couple of taps.
now the bushing is even easier to do, take a grease gun and fill the center with grease, then find something the same size as the inner bushing hole and just hit it with a hammer. It will pop right out. its a cheap part and better to do it now than have to drop everything again just for that.
OLD SCHOOL RULES !
quote
Originally posted by computer_engineer:
As my daddy taught me "Don't fix it, if it ain't broke..."
my dad said the same thing, and if that didn't work, get a bigger hammer was one of his other favorite thing to say when we were working on just about anything.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 09-05-2015).]
Steve, I think the bushing in question is the one that the throwout release fork rod sits in, in the case of the transmission. Your method is a good one that can be used on the crankshaft pilot bushing, but the Fiero doesn't use that bushing. Works great on rear wheel drive GM's, though.
OLD SCHOOL RULE # 2--If one has a clutch alignment tool, remove the loop from the end, insert the grease and tool and smack it with your choice of hammer sizes.
NEW SCHOOL RULE--After smacking with a hammer and extracting the pilot bushing, get a suitable wipe and remove the heavy grease from your face.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-05-2015).]
How many miles on the car and transmission? If the car has high mileage it may be time to have some clutch and transmission work done. If you are uncomfortable in doing the work yourself, find a reputable transmission shop. Even if you get a remanufactured transmission http://www.mantrans.com/node/1 After two and a half decades my 87 GT went into my local Fiero mechanic and I had a Fiero Store clutch, fork, bearings etc. replaced. Although the shop installed a new flywheel, it was for an 88 (neutral balanced) and they could not find a balanced flywheel needed for the 87. Fortunately I knew a machine shop who was able to resurface my old flywheel. The car shifted like new when done and I drive the car "conservatively" now as the car has 153,000 miles on it and the engine has never been cracked open. Last week I finally had to replace the original distributor.
If you need a slave cylinder, I recommend a Rodney Dickman version.
I think I found the bushings on the Fiero Store web site and the tool on Rodney's site, but do you have the part numbers and/or links so I know I am getting the correct parts?
The shift fork that I found on the Fiero store web site seems really expensive (233 bucks!!!), and I really don't know which transmission I have (Isuzu, Getrag, etc.) yet, which could make a difference for certain clutch kits. Also, the clutch forks I found on most auto parts web sites looks nothing like the one on the Fiero Store web site, but it would be nice to find a less expensive alternative. Do you know of a source for the shift fork that will work the 1987 V6, or am I looking at the wrong one on the Fiero Store site?
Thank you for the recommendations. I completely agree with the "replace it now and worry less later" approach.
There is a shift fork for an 87 Getrag 282 on eBay right now for less than $50. I know this because I have been searching for one for a couple of days since I am one of the unfortunate victims of a bent shift fork.
To answer a couple of your questions---What transmission do you have.
The Isuzu transmission has both cables coming over the top, side by side. They often interfere with the air intake tube. The end of the transmision case will be smooth aluminum. The slave cylinder retainer nuts will be on the right side of it's mounting bracket. The Getrag has one cable coming in from the bottom while the other comes in slightly from the top and underneath the air intake tube. The end of the case will have a flat metal plate. Test it with a magnet. The slave cylinder retainer nuts will be on the left side of the slave's mounting flange.
Based on your descriptions, I believe it is a Getrag transmission. I have included a photo as a confirmation. Please tell me if my guess is incorrect.
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 09-07-2015).]
There is a shift fork for an 87 Getrag 282 on eBay right now for less than $50. I know this because I have been searching for one for a couple of days since I am one of the unfortunate victims of a bent shift fork.
Nelson
Do you have a link to the part on eBay? I did some searching and cannot find a fork that looks like the one on the Fiero Store web site.
Do you see the clutch fork in the previous post? That was posted as an external link. The photo of my transmission was posted using PIP. Can anyone else see the picture of the tranny?
I can see the linked picture of the fork and I can still see the transmission picture. I have PIP installed so I don't think that was the problem. Just as with your original pic, sometimes I get a broken link with Server Not Found error message on other posts. Then later they will show up. Lots of us have the problem from time to time, and I think it's just due to various programs we have on our computers. At the time I couldn't see the pic on my PC, I could see it on my cell.
You can always test fit the release bearing onto the fork before installation. On the Getrag, the bearing slides over the input shaft sleeve and the two metal flanges prevent it from coming loose from the fork.
If anyone is looking to purchase the service manual for the 1987 V6 GT, and you are getting it for more insight toward working on the clutch, then it will not help you much...at least not with any specifics. The Getrag is not covered in the manual. Only the Mucie and Isuzu transaxles are covered. Since Fierofool has confirmed that I have a Getrag, then can anyone speculate why it is not covered in the Service Manual???
Stupid question: The service manual shows both the Isuzu and Muncie, but describes them as "Transaxles", and not transmissions. I realize that the manual is most likely describing something that has multiple functions, and that the transmission and transaxle are really the same thing, although one may describe it a little better than the other.
However, I just want to make sure I am not missing something that is obvious to everyone else, just not to me.
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 09-09-2015).]
Yes...you have a Getrag 282 Transaxle. We call it that because it was designed by the German company. GM used the term 'transaxle' a lot....to differentiate from the older drive shaft designs with separate transmissions and axles.
They probably wanted to call it a Muncie 5 speed also, rather than give credit to another company. (the Muncie-Chevrolet factory assembled the transmission)
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 09-09-2015).]
Transaxle is a term used to describe the front wheel drive transmission or a transmission that has the drive axles coming out of the transmission as opposed to a driveshaft to a separate axle. The Fiero uses a front wheel drive designed transmission or transaxle. As is well known, the first transaxle used in the 84 Fiero was the same as was used in the front wheel drive Citation. It was just relocated to the rear. Whether front or rear, the design is a transaxle.
The Getrag is often described as a Muncie because it was built in the Muncie, Indiana plant. If it's described as a 5-speed Muncie, it's a Getrag design. Your manual, Secton 7B3, page 7B3-1 is the correct section and transmission section you should be referring to.
Section 7C dealing with the hydraulics is pretty much the same across all 3 manual transmissions. Bleeding, clutch replacement, component replacements. Some components may look a little different than others, like clutch master cylinders or slave cylinders, but they still work the same.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-09-2015).]
Nelsons' listing on Ebay says that one fits the cars with the Fiero 2.5 engine, meaning Isuzu transmission.
I don't know what it fits, but it says a bit more than that.
"The engine types may include 2.5L 2474CC 151Cu. In. l4 GAS OHV Naturally Aspirated, 2.8L 173Cu. In. V6 GAS OHV Naturally Aspirated. This part fits vehicles made in the following years 1987, 1988."
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-09-2015).]
, but how likely is contamination the cause of the slipping clutch? And now, today, a new issue. I was getting off the interstate and disengaged the clutch to shift to a lower gear, and I hear and/or felt a "snap" when I was pressing the clutch. Now the clutch will not disengage. I limped it to my office and she's sitting outside my office, and it's owner (me) is fairly depressed and having panic attacks... 
I would like to start looking for these now, so I can have them ready when I begin working on the clutch. 
