The difference is that the release fork needed for the 2.5 Isuzu isn't the same as the one needed for the 87-88 Getrag equipped V6. The for may be interchangeable between transmissions, but a change in release bearings would be in order, too.
I have been reading about an "inspection plate" for the transaxle, flywheel, or clutch. I am assuming this has to be removed as part of any procedure to remove the clutch, but I have not seen a really good picture of one...exactly where it is and how it is removed.
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 09-12-2015).]
Its' a flat plate that slides up between the flywheel and the engine. It bolts to the bell housing, being the reason it has to be removed. When viewing the underneath of the engine/transmission from the passenger end, you can see the bolts where it's attached to the bellhousing. It is more a dust cover than an inspection plate. Keeps junk and water out of the clutch-pressure plate area.
After some long delays due to some health issues (hernia surgery, and tests for a hemangioma found on my liver - big fun ), I am making more progress toward getting the clutch replaced on my Fiero. I have the rear wheels off, the brake calipers and disks off, the wheel bearings, the lower knuckle separated, and the axles out. The brake calipers were a real "peach", and refused any of my attempts to get the caliper bolts out. It was not until I got a hardened torx bit that I was able to make progress, and even then, it was a bear.
So I am getting ready to tilt the cradle, and have sprayed the bolts with WD-40 repeatedly, several days in a row. What I am curious about, are the instructions from some of the postings I have seen and the one at the Fiero Factory, about tilting the cradle. Specifically, with regard to the cradle bolts themselves... Some postings say to remove the rear ones ONLY, and some postings (Fiero Factory) says to remove the rear bolts and the drivers side front bolt. Removing three of the bolts seems risky to me , and may alter the alignment of the cradle with the frame. Is there some reason that you would want to remove the drivers side front cradle bolt that I cannot see the benefit of doing with my inexperience??? Also, what does the 2x4 block of wood do for the Fiero Factory method? I have also seen some posts say you must loosen the front bolts to keep the "sleeves" from getting damaged. Is that a big concern?
A few more questions - When tilting the cradle, and removing certain motor mounts, which ones should you leave alone, and which ones have to be removed??? I assume you have to remove the dog bone at the top of the engine, and any mount connecting the cradle to the transaxle, but what about the others? How many mounts are there and where are they located? When supporting the engine while tilting the cradle, should I support the motor and the cradle, or just the motor? And should I have a block of wood under the oil pan when supporting it, or is the pan strong enough to hold the weight of the motor?
Thank you for all the help so far - You guys are great!
I have no personal experience with this, but something I've learned from other people. If you're going to tilt the cradle, be sure to remove the cruise control canister if you have cruise. I've heard that it's probably going to get crushed if you don't remove it.
The 'Compatibility' search engine shows : "Compatibility Please choose your vehicle year, make and model for specific results. Year 1987 Make Pontiac Model Fiero Engine V6 [show all compatible vehicles] This part is not compatible with 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE Coupe 2-Door 2.8L 173Cu. In. V6 GAS OHV Naturally Aspirated. "
After many delays, I have found time to work on the clutch again. I have had numerous chances to work on it, but something always came up and the car has just sat there waiting.
I have been working on getting the small items out of the way, such as the tubes that blow air on the alternator and the distributor, disconnecting the shift cables, etc. I have a question about the exhaust crossover tube. Does that really NEED to come off? Just to re-cap, I am going to be tilting the cradle to get the trans-axle out. That seems less problematic than dropping the engine with the cradle still attached (wiring, vacuum lines, fuel lines, coolant lines, etc.), which is outside my comfort zone.
It looks like to me, that you can still get at the bolts for the tranny, just under the exhaust tube.
You can see the edge of the tube in the upper right part of the image.
On this image, you can see the tube there, and part of the heat shield.
Also, when I removed the starter in order to get the dust shield off, something fell out.
Looks like clutch pad material, but maybe someone there can give a better "read" on what it is, and what I might be faced with once I get the trans-axle out.
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 05-26-2016).]
Getting the distinct feeling that no body is reading these, but I will continue to post in the hopes that someone will offer some advice.
Given the proximity of the cross-over pipe to the top of the transmission case, it seems that there is no other choice than to remove the it. But, I have another issue that I am hoping to get an opinion on. As I was removing the lower bolts from the X-over pipe, I looked up and saw something strange.
As you can see, one of the exhaust studs has broken off. This is on the side facing the front of the car. It looks like it has been this way for a long time. My question is - should I even worry about it, if this hasn't caused any problems so far? I don't believe it is a result of my work on removing the cross-over pipe, due to the rusted look if it. If it was broken during my efforts, then I would think the bolt face would be shiny.
Another question I have is about the lower shift / select cable (don't know which is which - sorry). There is a bracket the cable goes through. Is there a single bolt that holds that in place, or are there two bolts? I have circled them with green and red. I can tell the one circled green is a bolt, but what about the red one? The bracket is really close to the engine compartment wall, and getting a wrench on it is nearly impossible, so I may wait until the cradle is tilted just a little so it is easier to get to.
My last question for the moment has to do with the hard coolant pipe that runs along the back side of the engine. The two brackets that hold the transmission in place are now easier to identify, but one is obscured by the coolant pipe that passes over it, and seems to be bolted to it somehow. Does that pipe have to be unbolted from the bracket? Is is part of the bracket? How do each of the brackets come out? Do I remove the bolts that I can see? It looks like I can get to the bolts holding the bracket with the coolant tube passing over it (front one, two bolts coming through the H-Frame), but the rear bracket...all I can see are two bolts on either side of the transmission, and a single bolt on the bottom of the bracket.
Can anyone offer a little guidance?
Thanks
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-08-2016).]
As you can see, one of the exhaust studs has broken off. This is on the side facing the front of the car. It looks like it has been this way for a long time. My question is - should I even worry about it, if this hasn't caused any problems so far?
Since you're already tilting the cradle because of dealing with the clutch, this is an excellent time to deal with that broken exhaust manifold bolt. If you don't, you'll probably be cursing yourself later. Yes, it's a b!tch of a job. I've done it.
In regards to the coolant crossover pipe, I removed mine when I changed the clutch in my Formula, but that was because I had a nice shiny replacement for it. If accessing various mounting bolts is easier with it out of the way, you may be able to simply unbolt it from the engine (and move it over a bit) but not actually disconnect it from the cooling system.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-08-2016).]
Since you're already tilting the cradle because of dealing with the clutch, this is an excellent time to deal with that broken exhaust manifold bolt. If you don't, you'll probably be cursing yourself later. Yes, it's a b!tch of a job. I've done it.
I forgot that when tilting the cradle that it will give me more room to work on the exhaust manifold. I was so worried about how I was going to fix it, that I didn't think of that. I am sure it will still be interesting getting the exhaust manifold off, but I think you are right - if I don't do it now I will wish I would have.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
In regards to the coolant crossover pipe, I removed mine when I changed the clutch in my Formula, but that was because I had a nice shiny replacement for it. If accessing various mounting bolts is easier with it out of the way, you may be able to simply unbolt it from the engine (and move it over a bit) but not actually disconnect it from the cooling system.
I will have to look things over again and see if I can tell where all the bolts are for the transmission mounts and the coolant pipe are. None of the bolts are accessible from the top, but I am not sure how the mounts bolt to the frame. I believe I have found all the bolts where the mounting brackets connect to the transmission. You wouldn't happen to know how to take the mounts out? Should I take the bolts out of the mount to transmission areas first, or disconnect them from the frame, then the transmission?
I have the fabled wood block under the starter for support, but I am not sure I should depend solely on that to support the engine once the transmission mounts are gone. Opinions?
Should I take the bolts out of the mount to transmission areas first, or disconnect them from the frame, then the transmission?
Once the cradle is tipped down a bit, it's easier to access a lot of the bolts that need to be removed from the engine, tranny etc. It'll become more obvious what needs to be disconnected first when you start digging. The tranny mount to cradle bolts are easy to access and it won't hurt to remove them first. IMO, suspending the engine from a chain makes the job easier when disconnecting the transmission from it (as opposed to just relying on a wood block under the starter).
I am only one bolt away from being able to remove the exhaust cross-over pipe. It is the two bolts down by the CAT that have given me the most trouble. I finally got one to start turning with an air impact wrench. But on the other one, the one closest to the firewall (and the hardest to get to), I only succeeded in breaking loose the nut that is welded to the flange, so now the nut just spins when you try to loosen the bolt. I did try to lock a vise-grip on the nut, but after hitting it again with the impact, the vice-grip just pops off.
Is it time to cut it? If so, how in the heck do you get a grinder with a cutting wheel in there, or is it hacksaw time? Or maybe, wait until I tilt the cradle and there is more room, and I can get my grinder with the cutting wheel in there???
What have you guys done?
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-09-2016).]
I assume you've soaked down these exhaust nuts/bolts with penetrating fluid?
I have soaked them both with WD-40, over several days, and that may be what contributed to getting the first one out. I am going to try again to get the bolt out without cutting it...but my problem is holding that wrench in place while I put an impact or even just another wrench on the the bolt, Maybe a second pair of hands.
Thanks for the link. I had used WD-40 for decades. Grew up with it on our family farm, where we used either Liquid Wrench or WD-40 almost all the time. I guess my predilection toward WD-40 is due to my history with it, and its versatility. It worked well for a wide variety of things on our farm including rust prevention, cleaning electrical items without shorting them out, etc. I will go grab some PB Blaster my next trip into the city. Hopefully that will loosen that stubborn bolt.
I have been able to begin tilting the cradle. I have a little further to go before I can remove the transaxle, but I have made some good progress.
I will need to get something to support the back of the cradle, instead of using my only car jack, just in case I need it elsewhere. My goal is to get the rear of the cradle as close to the floor as possible (without tilting the cradle too far) to make it easier to get the tranny out.
I am taking it slow, in case I forgot to disconnect something that should have been. But as luck would have it (my bad luck), I did forget to disconnect a vacuum line that runs from the firewall area to the passenger side of the engine near the thermostat housing, and it snapped. So it looks like I will be replacing that one.
I am wondering about supporting the car while the cradle is tilted. There are a few articles and postings that suggest placing a wood plank just in front of where the cradle tilts with blocks or hockey pucks to clear the coolant lines. But I have found where the frame curves down just before it hits the floor pan, and I have placed jack stands in those locations, as pictured below.
Is there anything wrong with these locations? I did notice the rear portion of the car flexes a bit when I place the weight of the car on the jack stands, but I imagine that the same thing would happen if I used wood cribbing or some other method of support. This seems sturdy, and that is what I am shooting for. I wasn't ready for that small amount of flexing - sort of freaked me out a little.
I am hoping to get the tranny off and the clutch work done before the 4th of July, but with the broken exhaust stud and a leaky rear main, it might take me a bit longer. I have to admit, I was very intimmadated given the scope of the work, but I believe I chose the right method for me, to work on the clutch. I would be way outside my comfort zone to remove the engine, although I can see the advantages of being able to work on it more easily.
Are the above locations okay for supporting the car when the tranny is removed?
That's the same location I used... but if you can, move the stands a little more forward if possible, just to get them away from the sloped area.
I also slid my wheels/tires under the car... just in case.
[EDIT] Now that I'm looking at your other image (after leveling it out)... the stands are probably fine where they're presently located. I can now see that there's kind of a pocket where the top of the stands are positioned. (I had forgotten how exactly that area looked, as it's been three years since I had my Formula up like that.)
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-15-2016).]
Ran into something that doesn't look right. Seems like the top shift cable was routed behind the hook that was intended to support it. But maybe it was put there to keep it away from the exhaust pipe. Is that hook pictured there supposed to hold the cable?
Seems like after a little more time, heat, and vibration, the bracket might cut through the heat wrap, or even the cable. Thoughts?
Picture is of the left side (front) of the engine, looking down from the top. The silver jacketed cable is the top shifter cable going to/from the tranny. Red arrow is up, and the green one is pointing to the front of the car.
The hook is what I think is supposed to hold the shift cable (circled in yellow).
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-16-2016).]
Okay, I get it now. I had forgotten that your cradle was tipped which makes much more room to take a shot from that angle.
I had to look over some old images of my Formula to figure it out. (My engine is much cleaner now! ) I'd say that your shift cable shouldn't be on the inside of the metal PCV tube support. In my picture, the cable doesn't look like it's being held by the hook either, but I won't know about that until I take a look at the car itself.
[EDIT] It's possible that the hook is no longer used as the revised Getrag shift cable routing doesn't even indicate it.
[EDIT2] I had a look at my Formula, and the shift cable is not being held by the hook. If I can remember correctly, it seems to me that the shift cable for the Getrag was better routed by not going through there.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-16-2016).]
I was finally able to remove the other bolt for the exhaust cross-over tube. I used a new impact wrench my wife got me for Father's Day, and soaked the nut several times with Liquid Wrench. I also had to re-position the vise-grip I used several times for a better bite on the nut, as there is little or no room to put that tool in there given the lip around that flange.
I will have to figure out how to re-mount the nut in the flange when I re-assemble it. Looks like the nut was pressed into the flange, so that won't work again. Is my best bet to have someone weld it on (small welds on the edges of the nut to the flange)? I don't have a welder myself.
My next task will be getting at least one coolant line off the top of the engine. It pulls tight to the firewall whenever I tilt the engine too much, so I have to remove it from the thermostat housing.
It is the one that looks like it goes to the heater core, but I will have to remove the larger hose on top of it, in order to get to it...pretty sure. I plan on just draining a small amount of coolant so I can pull the hoses off without a big mess. Any suggestions, do's or don'ts???
TIA
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-29-2016).]
I will have to figure out how to re-mount the nut in the flange when I re-assemble it. Looks like the nut was pressed into the flange, so that won't work again. Is my best bet to have someone weld it on (small welds on the edges of the nut to the flange)? I don't have a welder myself.
The nut was originally spot-welded onto the flange, and rewelding it back on is certainly an option... but I didn't bother. I found it easy enough to get a wrench on the nut to prevent it from turning during reassembly.
quote
Originally posted by computer_engineer:
I plan on just draining a small amount of coolant so I can pull the hoses off without a big mess. Any suggestions, do's or don'ts???
Yeah... don't leave it out in an open container for Spot or Puff to lap up.
I am edging ever closer to getting the transaxle off of the engine, and I can see a potential problem.
The photo shows what I think might be a problem. The web page at the Fiero Factory on tilting the cradle, does not mention the metal coolant pipe going across the front side of the engine. Seems to me that the edge of the bell housing (yellow) on the transaxle might hit the bracket that is welded onto the angled section of the pipe (green), when I go to separate the trasnaxle from the engine (red arrow). If the transaxle input shaft clears the clutch before the pipe hits the edge of the bell housing, then maybe I have nothing to worry about. Can anyone comment on this part of the procedure???
Now for a few unrelated questions. Since I have a broken exhaust bolt, I am going to be removing the front exhaust manifold. I have identified all the bolts and bolt/studs. I have started removing them, but have only removed one so far. Can the bolt/studs be purchased anywhere? I have looked but I haven't found any like what I just removed. I believe it will be important to use new ones when I re-assemble it. Should I also use a threader to clear the threads on the block, or should I not mess with them?
I have found pure stud kits, where the nut is placed on the stud, but none that look like the photo above. I have at least one more like this on the top of the manifold, and one on the bottom. With the cradle tilted some, they are all easy enough to get to (well, not that easy ), but it seems the bolt behind the AC compressor is going to be a real peach.
Getting a wrench of any kind up behind the compressor looks nearly impossible. I am hoping someone else has tackled this issue and can give me some advice. If the advice is to remove the compressor, then so-be-it. I am sure I will not like doing that, as I was hoping to leave the compressor lines as undisturbed as possible, so there is less chance of breaking them. I think I found some good recommendations here on this site, which covers more than I need, but at least it covers removing the manifolds. Any suggestions on whether the compressor can stay in or has to come out?
Any suggestions on whether the compressor can stay in or has to come out?
The compressor stays... but needs to be disconnected from the engine. This way the hoses don't need to be disturbed.
In regards to the coolant crossover pipe, make sure it's unbolted from everything. I believe it'll then give you enough play (while still connected to the cooling system) to allow you to move it out of the way of the tranny. (When I changed the clutch in my Formula, I also changed the crossover pipe, so I can't say for absolutely sure that it can be moved out of the way of the tranny if still connected.)
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-06-2016).]
Are the studs better than the bolts (or bolts with studs sticking out of the top - picture in previous post) that were used by GM when it was assembled? Should I get the ones available from the Fiero Store or Rodney Dickman? Are these same studs available from auto parts stores? If the studs are better, why does the Fiero Store offer the bolts, same as what GM installed?
But with that comes some more problems as well. I have continued to chip away at all the issues I have encountered while digging into the car to fix the clutch. I was removing the bolts for the front header, as my last post indicates, and found that I was able to remove the bolts and bolt/studs without too much effort. I was so careful not to break any of them, so I soaked them with Liquid wrench for a few days before I attempted to remove them. I knew I would be removing the AC compressor to access the lower bolt on the outside cylinder, so I left that one for last. But as I was removing the 2nd to last one, the header fell off in my hands. I inspected the area, and the head of this bolt had broken off at the block. Seems like the lower bolt was just hanging by a thread and not really holding anything.
I suppose that means that I will be doing what I feared most. What is the recommended method of removing that bolt? What is left seems jagged, and there is only a tiny bit exposed above the surface of the block. Not enough to grab with a vice grip or anything. So I think I will be drilling a hole into the bolt, and using a bolt extractor of some kind? Any recommendations? This is my first one. Should I try to get someone with some experience to come and help me?
Also, I found that I cannot remove the deflector, without removing the coolant pipe - so that will have to come out. Does the dipstick tube have to come out? How do you get it out?
If you look closely, you can tell that only the middle cylinder on this side had a good seal. The other two were leaking, as you can see signs of charring on the deflector.
And if that wasn't enough, the header looks cracked. See if you agree.
Here is the other side.
So... Do I have someone weld this, or is it time for new headers on both sides? Does anyone even carry headers or performance headers for the 2.8L V6 any more?
What is the recommended method of removing that bolt? What is left seems jagged, and there is only a tiny bit exposed above the surface of the block. Not enough to grab with a vice grip or anything.
If you can get someone with a portable welder to come over and weld a nut onto what's protruding (and then turn it out with a wrench), you might be able to save yourself a LOT of work.
quote
Originally posted by computer_engineer:
Also, I found that I cannot remove the deflector, without removing the coolant pipe - so that will have to come out. Does the dipstick tube have to come out? How do you get it out?
That shield will come out without disconnecting the crossover pipe from the coolant system. And the dipstick tube pulls straight up.
quote
Originally posted by computer_engineer:
And if that wasn't enough, the header looks cracked. See if you agree.
So... Do I have someone weld this, or is it time for new headers on both sides?
If you can find a front factory exhaust manifold in good condition (not cracked), that would be great, but be prepared to pay a fair sum for it. And aftermarket headers are prohibitively expensive. My advice... just have it welded (while bolted down securely). Don't forget to port the exhaust manifolds while you have them off.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-10-2016).]
My advice... just have it welded (while bolted down securely).
I will check the local places to see who is the best at welding headers with a mind toward avoiding warpage.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Don't forget to port the exhaust manifolds while you have them off.
What is involved in porting the exhaust? Do you mean rounding out the holes in the inlets to the header pipes? They look a little rectangular now, and I can see where they would be a bit restrictive.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
And aftermarket headers are prohibitively expensive.
Do you have any links for places that I can find them? I have done a few searches and come up empty. I don't have money to burn, but if the after market headers don't crack, then it might be worth it considering the time and effort I have put in so far.
The information seems good for people that have done this before, but a little incomplete for a novice like me. Some before and after pictures of the "T" sections would be nice. I see the obvious advantages of doing some work on the flanges as well, so that edges are like the ones in this post.
I have some of the tools necessary, but it seems like a ton of work for just a little gain. However, it also seems like I would be foolish to let this opportunity get away from me, as I am not likely to have the car town down this far in the near future (I suppose every Fiero owner says that).
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 07-18-2016).]
My buddy has a Hole Saw kit (similar to what's pictured below) which includes a cutter which is the exact same size as the inside of the manifold ports.
It takes about ten seconds per port to do a perfect job! I'm not kidding. I'm surprised more people don't use this method.
Those hole saws look like they are for wood. Would they be tough enough for steel?
Or would you need a carbide tipped hole saw...
Keep in mind it's relatively thin metal that's being removed. I admit I had my reservations as well when I saw what my buddy was using... but there were no issues at all. Ten seconds per port.
I think we are talking about the 1 1/4" hole saws then. I'll see if I already have one, or if I can get one cheap somewhere (aka., Harbor Freight). Then all I should have to do is screw the header onto a couple of 4 x 4's placed on either side of the runner with the ports facing up, and then drill, being careful not to go too far with the saw. I hope someone has a hole saw where the center drill bit is removable. That would be best. Otherwise I risk punching a hole in the runner.
I will post some before and after photos if anyone is interested.
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 07-19-2016).]
), I am making more progress toward getting the clutch replaced on my Fiero. I have the rear wheels off, the brake calipers and disks off, the wheel bearings, the lower knuckle separated, and the axles out. The brake calipers were a real "peach", and refused any of my attempts to get the caliper bolts out. It was not until I got a hardened torx bit that I was able to make progress, and even then, it was a bear. 
, and may alter the alignment of the cradle with the frame. Is there some reason that you would want to remove the drivers side front cradle bolt that I cannot see the benefit of doing with my inexperience??? 
Also, what does the 2x4 block of wood do for the Fiero Factory method? I have also seen some posts say you must loosen the front bolts to keep the "sleeves" from getting damaged. Is that a big concern? 
I have had numerous chances to work on it, but something always came up and the car has just sat there waiting. 
It is the two bolts down by the CAT that have given me the most trouble. I finally got one to start turning with an air impact wrench. But on the other one, the one closest to the firewall (and the hardest to get to), I only succeeded in breaking loose the nut that is welded to the flange, so now the nut just spins when you try to loosen the bolt. 
I did try to lock a vise-grip on the nut, but after hitting it again with the impact, the vice-grip just pops off. 
) I'd say that your shift cable shouldn't be on the inside of the metal PCV tube support. In my picture, the cable doesn't look like it's being held by the hook either, but I won't know about that until I take a look at the car itself.
