Okay,

I am getting ready to purchase a new clutch. Which one? I want something a little better than stock, because my driving style tends to be hard on the clutch (lots of shifting and clutch work). But I don't want something that makes the clutch hard to use. Would that be a stage one? What brand of clutch is best? I have seen some posts with issues where it doesn't fit quite right. Is there someone out there that has had really good experiences with certain brands? For example, I have heard to stay away from the RAM clutches from the Fiero store, because they are a little too thick and it creates issues.

I like the idea of more surface area on the clutch - may stand up to more abuse from "yours truly". But does this carry with it a heavier clutch pedal?

How about the flywheel? Should I get it surfaced? Should I get new bolts, or re-use the ones that are there?

And finally, should I use the same exhaust bolts or buy new? The kit from the Fiero Store are studs - should I put on ALL of them as studs? Or is it better to use bolts in some places and the studs only where I need to mount heat sheilds? Also, are there substitute stamped nuts that someone sells for putting the heat shields back on?

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 08-27-2016).]

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I am getting ready to purchase a new clutch. Which one? I want something a little better than stock, because my driving style tends to be hard on the clutch (lots of shifting and clutch work).

We all like to think we're (insert name of a famous race car driver) , but seriously, for a factory 2.8 nothing special is required. Three years ago I installed a very inexpensive LUK clutch kit ftom RockAuto into my '88 Formula. I drive that car hard, not just on the street, but also at autocross with sticky tires on a regular basis. The clutch is just fine. Spend your money as you see fit, but you don't need a better clutch than this for a stock engine.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: How about the flywheel? Should I get it surfaced?

Absolutely... no question about having that done.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Should I get new bolts...

I saw no need to replace the flywheel bolts.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: And finally, should I use the same exhaust bolts or buy new? The kit from the Fiero Store are studs - should I put on ALL of them as studs? Or is it better to use bolts in some places and the studs only where I need to mount heat sheilds?

I used replacement bolts, but I think using all studs for the exhaust manifolds is probably a better idea... especially if it ever needs to come apart again.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Also, are there substitute stamped nuts that someone sells for putting the heat shields back on?

I just used regular nuts on the studs that held the heat shields, along with plenty of anti-seize.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-27-2016).]

Is there any particular brand of clutch that is better than others? I have heard of LUK clutches, but are there any to stay away from (fit issues, clutch pedal issues, engagement, dis-engagement issues, etc.)???

Well,

Back at it !!!

I made some major progress this weekend. Got the transmission out, and what's left of the clutch in my hands. Seems like one of the faces of the clutch disintegrated.



The other side looks normal, and I am finding a fiber like material all over the inside of the pressure plate and the transaxel housing.

I was relieved to find out that the clutch fork looked fine, with no damage.



Even the TOB looks good, but I am still going to be replacing that, as I think it comes with most of the clutch kits. Something that troubled me, is that the pressure plate came off (the bolts holding it onto the flywheel) with very little effort. Most of the bolts had a very low amount of torque on them, so they came off easily with an air ratchet. I guess I was expecting the exhaust bolt from hell, or yet another issue I would have to deal with. Nice for things to go smoothly for a change.

Not that everything went smoothly, as I am dealing with some other issues as a result of getting to the clutch, which I posted here.

Here is a photo of the flywheel.



I know the thinking here is to get it ground and smoothed out, but from what I can see, it doesn't seem all that bad. Does anyone have an opinion on doing this or not, or any other comments.

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 11-14-2016).]

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I know the thinking here is to get it ground and smoothed out, but from what I can see, it doesn't seem all that bad. Does anyone have an opinion on doing this or not, or any other comments.

Don't even think about not having the flywheel resurfaced... unless you really enjoy pulling the tranny.

quote Originally posted by Patrick Here: IMO it's a big mistake not to resurface a flywheel when replacing the clutch disc. Watch the video below and notice how the flywheel surface doesn't get cleaned up all at once. It takes awhile to remove areas of the flywheel which haven't been worn down (as much) by the clutch disc.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-14-2016).]

I found this LUK clutch at RockAuto: LuK Clutch

Unfortunately, this is the only option I have, since no one seems to have one locally (O'Reilly's, MOPAR, Advance, AutoZone, etc.). This looks like it will fit, and the description is right, but I have had a few parts from RockAuto not work out right, and it would be a real shame to put my baby all the way back together, only to find out, that something doesn't work right.

Also, do I have to be concerned with the balance of the flywheel / pressure plate combination. The pressure plate on the web site looks a little different than the one I have. Not to mention, when I get the flywheel re-surfaced, are they going to check to make sure it is still balanced, or is that a non-issue???



I see some plugs in the outer holes that I don't see on the LuK clutch. Are these balance weights that the factory plate needs, that the LuK does not???

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 11-14-2016).]

Balance shouldn't be an issue. The flywheel should be positioned flat on the grinder, so that grinding is even all the way around. Neither should the clutch assembly balance be an issue. That's taken care of at manufacture.

Pep Boys has the Luk clutches. Have you tried them? Been buying from them for years. Probably a half dozen or so, without issue in fit and function in my 85, 86 and 87 and several other Fieros.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I found this LUK clutch at RockAuto: LuK Clutch

That's the exact same clutch kit that I put in my Formula three years ago. I drive the car hard on the street and at autocross. I'm very happy with the clutch.

You might also like to read a bit about the flywheel shim I installed... Here.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-14-2016).]

Thanks again... Your assistance has been one of the main reasons I was able to tackle this myself. I will be ordering the clutch today.

To shim or not to shim, that is the question....

I think, given the dimensions we are dealing with, that putting the shim in on older vehicles with more wear would make a positive difference. My car, only has about 50K miles on it, so I am not certain it will be needed. When the TOB pushes on the fingers of the pressure plate, that creates a gap between the PP and the flywheel. The shim will directly affect where that gap "rides" in relation to the clutch pedal position as far as the clutch disc is concerned. I think that if the material removed from mine is minimal, then I will most likely go without one.

I have had many manual transmission vehicles during my decades of driving, and personally I like the clutch pedal to disengage somewhere around 1/3 travel, maybe a tiny bit less. That leaves a lot of room as things wear towards the bottom of the travel for the pedal. But aren't these hydraulic clutches supposed to be "self-adjusting"??? Maybe that is less fact and more fiction.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: To shim or not to shim, that is the question.... I think, given the dimensions we are dealing with, that putting the shim in on older vehicles with more wear would make a positive difference. My car, only has about 50K miles on it, so I am not certain it will be needed.

IMO, it has nothing to do with mileage on the vehicle, but everything to do with the thickness of metal being removed from the flywheel during resurfacing. I won't further argue the point here (as it's all laid out in the thread I linked to)... but for $5 I believe it's well worth the peace of mind.

Just took the flywheel off to go and get it re-surfaced while I am waiting for the clutch to arrive and found the primary source of leaking oil.



I think I am going to try pushing the seal onto the crank using the method detailed here. What are your thoughts about doing things this way? Any issues about getting the old one out? Seems fairly straight forward, and putting the new one in does not seem hard if I use the PVC pipe and plate and take my time.

I also found some evidence of leaks around the distributor, but they don't seem as "fresh" as the one at the rear main.



Opinions on the photo (I know it's not the best quality shot of the distributor area)? I have the high temperature o-ring from Rodney. I am thinking of putting it in even though there is not much evidence of oil leaks, at least not recent ones. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this case - right? If I mark the shaft and re-insert it the same way as it went in, do I need to worry about re-setting the timing. Seems like it would be okay. I know some of you will say to check the timing anyway, but that means I will have to buy one, as that is one tool I don't have.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 11-16-2016).]

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Just took the flywheel off to go and get it re-surfaced while I am waiting for the clutch to arrive and found the primary source of leaking oil. I think I am going to try pushing the seal onto the crank using the method detailed here.

I can't tell very well from looking at the image, but is the oil leaking from the crank seal... or from the rear oil pan gasket?

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I have the high temperature o-ring from Rodney. I am thinking of putting it in even though there is not much evidence of oil leaks, at least not recent ones. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this case - right?

That's a no-brainer... install the new O-ring!

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I know some of you will say to check the timing anyway, but that means I will have to buy one, as that is one tool I don't have.

Seriously man, you can't expect to own a car with a distributor... and not have a timing light. Get a used one from eBay. Might set you back ten bucks!

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-16-2016).]

Borrow one from Advance or AutoZone. Deposit in the amount of purchase price is required but it's refunded upon return. Then purchase oil and filter to thank them.

Any recommendations on which rear main seal to get? I found several different ones, using different materials, different styles/shapes.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...0&cc=1249152&jsn=434

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...6&cc=1249152&jsn=435

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...2&cc=1249152&jsn=436

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...=437&jsn=437&jsn=437

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I can't tell very well from looking at the image, but is the oil leaking from the crank seal... or from the rear oil pan gasket?

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Rear main ... The previous owner of the car told me this when I bought it.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that when a rear main seal leaks the oil escapes between the rubber seal and the end of the crankshaft (indicated below by the end of the red arrow). However, it looks perfectly dry there to me. I suppose though that the rear main seal could be leaking between its outer shell and the block... if the seal wasn't installed correctly.




I'm still kind of suspicious of that oil pan gasket.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-19-2016).]

i agree with you, Patrick. Looks like it's leaking between the outer shell and block. That's the point where the oil stain starts. Looks like fresh oil. It probably wouldn't have worked it's way up from the pan and just stopped at that point.

Thanks guys!

I think I am going to have a closer look at the oil pan this weekend. But it can't hurt to replace both the rear main and the oil pan gasket. Since I have to drop the oil pan anyway, if the rear main seal gives me problems coming out, I will already be half way there.

Okay,

I am ready to get some more parts. I need an oil pan gasket and the rear main seal. I posted some choices for the rear main, but no one posted any opinions as to which one was the right one to get. I have several choices for the oil pan gasket as well.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...w.google.com+URL+%2F

I like these:

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...8&cc=1249152&jsn=444

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...8&cc=1249152&jsn=448

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...0&cc=1249152&jsn=450

This one says it is for the "9" engine code, but aren't the others as well???

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...2&cc=1249152&jsn=449

There is no "extra" information on the Rock-Auto web site for it, but my VIN does have a 9 in it. I'm just not sure that is significant.

Opinions?

I personally prefer the Fel-Pro PermaDry gasket. Don't use any sealer on it

Fel-pro permadry is the gold standard. The only gasket I ever consider outside of that, is head gaskets, as I like the MLS styles. Everything else is permadry, hands down. Never had any issues whatsoever.

Thank you for the recommendations on the oil pan gasket. I am much more comfortable purchasing one now.

I have found that the measurements of the rear main seal on my 87 GT is 8.5mm, as far as I can tell (using a caliper with the seal still in place). Maybe I am measuring wrong, but that doesn't match up with the seals on Rock Auto that say they are the "improved" design, which are listed as 11mm thick. The shaft size seems to match, which I measured at 2.944 inches. I did not check the outer diameter of the seal. Both the Fel-Pro seals are listed as 11mm thick, but the others that are a closer match are 0.385 or 0.374 inches (9.8 / 9.5mm) thick.

So which one is the right one?

http://www.rockauto.com/en/...crankshaft+seal,5604

TIA

These are the 3 that NAPA lists for the 87 2.8. The first two are FelPro. Different only in the material they're made of. The third one is a NAPA branded seal. Maybe this will help you identify what RockAuto has.

https://www.napaonline.com/...uct=false&isIntercha nge=false

If I happen to get the wrong one, and install it...

Am I only going to find out later when I re-assemble the car and it leaks or leaks worse than before???

I would really rather not have to go through that, so if someone has some information on the rear main seal they bought and installed for a 1987 2.8 V6, and it worked and lasted a long time, then I would like to purchase that seal. I think you can see what it is I am asking for, so I hope someone has a recommendation for me with a testimonial. Please?

Here is a list of the seals available on Rock Auto's site. But I am not opposed to getting the seal somewhere else.

TIA

Getting ready to finally put my baby back together. I still have a stubborn exhaust bolt , but I am making progress on it. When I go to put the front header back on, should I use one gasket or two? And what is the proper order when using one gasket? Can I put on a gasket, then the deflector, then another gasket, and then the header? Or should put on the deflector, then the gasket, then the header...only using one?

Thanks

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: And what is the proper order when using one gasket? Can I put on a gasket, then the deflector, then another gasket, and then the header? Or should put on the deflector, then the gasket, then the header...only using one?

The "proper" order is... head, shield, gasket, exhaust manifold. That's how I did my Formula. However, on my '86 GT with A/C (which was a helluva job with broken exhaust manifold bolts) I went with Plan B... no shield. (I wanted to lessen the chance of an exhaust leak.)

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-29-2017).]

Which way does the clutch go on? I was an idiot and didn't notice which way the clutch came off the shaft. There is one side the springs protrude a little, and one side the ring for the shaft comes out a little. I am guessing that if I put it all together it may become apparent, but I thought I would ask here first.

THIS is the side that faces the pressure plate. The plate with the springs on the clutch disk fits inside the pressure plate. The other side of the clutch disk is relatively flat. If you put it in upside down this raised area with the springs will always be in contact with the flywheel and your clutch won't disengage.

Exactly what I needed. I do have the service manual, but sometimes the drawings and information are not very clear.

Question: The photo above shows the side of the clutch disc that faces the pressure plate, which is the side of the clutch that disintegrated. Is this mode of failure common for a clutch? This clutch had less than 50K miles on it, and was the original factory clutch as far as I know.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 04-05-2017).]

I would have to say it's uncommon....but
When it comes to 'normal' clutch wear, it all depends on the driver. You can cook a clutch in 10 minutes if you want to.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 04-05-2017).]

Okay,

I got the exhaust bold out and I am ready to begin putting my baby back together. But I have run into an unknown, so I need some help/opinions, so I can feel safe to proceed. I am replacing various things that are known difficult to get to or trouble spots, while it is apart. For example, replacing the rear main seal, the distributor O-Ring, and the spark plugs. While I was digging out the real main seal, I noticed that I ran into some metal. Either there is some sort of "ledge" in the crankshaft opening, or this is just a metal band inside the seal to give it strength. Refer to the picture below:



Is the metal in the gap (circled in red) just part of the seal? According to the seal I got to replace it with (below), it would seem to be just part of the seal. The seal has to run inside the gap (between the blue arrows) ...correct? Which would then seem to indicate that the metal in the gap (between the blue arrows) is part of the seal and I can punch holes in it, or grab it any way I can to get it out - right? So long as I don't scratch the crank or the crank opening...



Thanks as always for your informed opinions.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-03-2017).]

Yes. That's part of the seal. They make a seal puller. Looks like a small corkscrew. The one I have has a flexible spring-type shaft with a T-handle. A good sharp one will start it's own hole. Kind of self-tapping. If it's dull it might require a tiny pilot hole. Pull at 3 different locations, 120* apart to prevent binding.

Can't seem to find a tool like that... But I am not so sure that picks or standard seal pullers would work on this seal. The metal in the seal is what will make this difficult, IMHO. But I did see one video that showed a different way of getting this type of seal out. You can see it here. I think I may try this method, unless someone else has a better idea. This should let me get that seal out without having to shove a tool along the crank or the outer wall and risk scratching it. That is as long as I am careful with the drill.

Also, I got this seal, at Rock Auto. I am not certain what material it is, but I have heard that if it is a PTFE type seal, that you SHOULD NOT put oil on it when you install it (that doesn't sound right). Is this true? From what I can tell, I don't think this one is a PTFE seal, but it does say it is an "improved" design.

TIA...

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 06-06-2017).]

Okay... I am attempting to remove the old rear main seal. But that little sucker does not want to come out. I have been picking away at it trying not to score the crank or crank opening, but it is getting increasingly difficult to do so.



I tried to pry it loose with a screw driver, but it just bent the metal in the seal and slipped right out. I tried to grab it with a needle nose pliers, but there is not much to grab on to. There doesn't seem to be enough metal there to actually drill a hole into to use the screw extraction method, as it is really close to the edge of the opening. Is it time to try one of those specialized seal pullers?

Like this one....



Or this one...



Thanks.

Okay,

I got the seal out.



But it didn't come out easy AT ALL. Some posts I have seen make it seem like you can just pick it out with a dental pick or something. This thing required some real force. But I guess the point is that it DID come out.



I am hoping to get some more opinions here, concerning putting in the new one. I have the new one, and it is similar to the old one... I am assuming that what I pulled out is the old design, and the one I have is the correct one. Given the photo below, is the one I have, the correct seal for my 2.8 V6???



It looks like the right one.

Next question. The instructions that came with the seal say to coat the bearing cap mating surface with an "anaerobic compound". I looked it up, and it seems to be referring to some kind of adhesive, like Loctite. My question is ... are these instructions correct? If I coat it with an adhesive, and I have to take it out again, it seems to me that it is going to be stuck in there for good. Like it ain't never coming out again. On the flip side, maybe that means that it will seal up really well, and I won't ever have to worry about it again.

Opinions? Please?

Congrats on getting that bugger out of there!

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: The instructions that came with the seal say to coat the bearing cap mating surface with an "anaerobic compound". I looked it up, and it seems to be referring to some kind of adhesive, like Loctite. My question is ... are these instructions correct? If I coat it with an adhesive, and I have to take it out again, it seems to me that it is going to be stuck in there for good. Like it ain't never coming out again. On the flip side, maybe that means that it will seal up really well, and I won't ever have to worry about it again.

Myself, I'd brush on some Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket (been using this stuff for 45 years!) around the outside perimeter of that seal... but see what other suggestions you might get.

I use the Permatex Aviation also

Any recommendations on how much to reduce the torque specs when using blue thread lock or anti seize?

Based on thr recommendations I have seen here I intend to use blue thread lock on the flywheel bolts, the pressure plate bolts, the transaxle mounting bolts, etc. I will use anti seize on the exhaust bolts and spark plug.

Okay...

More progress this weekend. Finally got brave enough to try putting the new seal in. Thanks to Patrick for the recommendation on using the Permatex Aviation Form A Gasket. Takes a while to dry, and it worked perfectly with the tool to press in the new one that was recommended by another Fiero Forum user.



After several minutes of watching and making sure all the bolts were going in evenly, I ended up with this.



Now I am ready to put my flywheel back on and the new pressure plate and clutch. Question... I have misplaced one of the flywheel bolts and so I am getting some new ones. In shopping for some new ones I see that most everyone carries the right size and thread pitch (M10 x 1.0), but no one has the correct size. Most are only 18.5mm, and not the 23 for the original bolt spec. I found some M10 x 1.0 x 20mm bolts for a Mustang flywheel. Any problems using those, or even the 18.5mm ones? I would suspect either would be fine, except for the ones for the Mustang seem to come with red locktite on them.

Mustang 2.3L Flywheel Bolts

Flywheel Bolts From Summit Racing

So while I am at it, I am trying to scare up some new pressure plate bolts as well, but they seem to be as rare as hen's teeth, as my dad would say. But maybe we can do the same thing here, and just use ones with the correct bolt size and thread pitch. Just need M8 x 1.25, about 22mm long. Seems like these should work:

Mustang Pressure Plate Bolts

As long as the bolts are the correct size and thread pitch, and the hardness is adequate... Does anyone see any issues with using stuff meant for a completely different make/model of car?

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 07-24-2017).]