I often recommend checking Tractor Supply or any farm tractor dealer for hard to find bolts, nuts, washers, etc. Have you already checked with Summit or any GM dealer?

GM Dealers want way too much for them, and they are the "exact" same ones that you can get from RockAuto.com . But they are both 18mm long, and not the 23mm that the FSM has listed.

I have called around locally, and no one has them...neither the flywheel bolts or the pressure plate ones. I am just wondering if the ones I found from Summit and others would work, even if they are spec'd for a different car. My guess is yes...

I wouldn't use a shorter length than original, but the longer bolts can be ground down to length so that they don't pass through and strike something. The inspection/dust shield on the bottom of the bell housing would likely come into play with longer pressure plate bolts, and you might bottom out in the crank with longer flywheel bolts.

This is getting ridiculous... I have exhausted all the normal options. Fiero Store normally has them, but is out of stock. I could get the ones from Summit Racing, but they seem to be about 25mm long, so they would need to be ground down, and I don't want to do that and then screw up the threads on my crankshaft. I would the shorter ones would probably work, as long as there is enough surface area on the threads to hold the torque setting that is needed ???

Alternatively... does anyone have a flywheel bolt laying around that they would be willing to part with?

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 07-27-2017).]

In the machine shop, we often ground bolts down to length or cut them to length with a band saw. Once they're cut, you can bevel/dress the end on a bench grinder. If you can start the bolt by hand, the threads are good.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: ...they would need to be ground down, and I don't want to do that and then screw up the threads on my crankshaft.

Buy a matching metric nut at the hardware store for 30 cents. Put it on the bolt before you cut/grind it down to the correct length. Bevel/dress the end of the bolt. Remove the nut... which cleans up the thread at the end of the bolt. Problem solved.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-27-2017).]

As usual...things haven't gone to plan . But I'm nothing if not adaptable. I found some M10 x 1.0 x 20.5mm bolts on Rock Auto's site, by noodling around their site. They were actually for a Pontiac Sunfire, 4 cyl car, but I figured they would work, if they met the specs. But when I got them, they were only 18mm long, so clearly not of the right length. I have half a mind to complain, but for 5 bucks, it's probably not even worth the effort.

But while I was sulking and wondering what I was going to do now, I happened to find my missing flywheel bolt! Needless to say I was relieved, but I still might write a nasty email to Rock Auto. I don't think it would take that much make a bolt that is 5mm longer. I think they get them from ATP.

Now my new quandary... Before re-assembling the parts, I have been doing a bit of research on whether to use a thread-locker, such as blue loctite. But I have seen no clear information, one way or the other. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that seems to indicate a reduction in the torque applied by 20%. But if you check Permatex's web site and literature, the say there should be no change in the torque applied. But neither seems correct. My levels of trust are being tested by this one simple question. My thoughts are that Permatex is NOT correct, and that blue loctite would lubricate the threads some, and so I would reduce the torque some, but how much? I don't want my flywheel bolts coming loose because I didn't torque them down enough, causing damage that I could not repair.

I want to use loctite because it will protect the threads from rust, and make taking it apart a little easier, and make it less likely that it will come apart on its own due to vibration. Does anyone have any direct experience with it? That is, other than, "Yeah, I use it, never had any problems..." which really doesn't help. I am hoping for something more like "I have used it on flywheel bolts and pressure plate bolts, but reduced the torque by 10%, and have never had one problem".

Patrick - I believe you have said you use loctite on everything, except exhaust bolts and spark plugs, where use used anti-seize. But you did not mention how you approached the question of torque application, when tightening these down. Perhaps I missed it... I always allow for the possibility that I am wrong.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 08-08-2017).]

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Patrick - I believe you have said you use loctite on everything, except exhaust bolts and spark plugs, where use used anti-seize. But you did not mention how you approached the question of torque application, when tightening these down.

No no... I use anti-seize on almost everything! However, on my Formula's flywheel bolts, I used Loctite.

In regards to torque specs with fasteners where anti-seize has been applied, I guess I've just been doing this long enough to now know almost instinctively not to over-tighten.

When using Loctite, it's not required to put a lot on. Often a drop or two will do... and that's probably why at the Permatex site it's stated that torque specs need not be changed.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: No no... I use anti-seize on almost everything! However, on my Formula's flywheel bolts, I used Loctite.

Sorry about that Patrick. I should have checked the previous postings. I am glad that at least your flywheel bolts have been treated with loctite. I assume that you are referring to "Blue Loctite". Did you also use them on the pressure plate bolts?

Also, when tightening down the pressure plate bolts, this puts the main spring under tension, immobilizing the friction disc for the clutch. I have the centering tool to take care of the disc, but when you tighten down bolts, I assume you must take some care to tighten them down in a certain sequence, so the centering tool doesn't walk over to one side or the other. I am also assuming that the bolts are sufficiently long enough to pull the pressure plate down on the disc???

Thanks.

I've never done a Fiero but on other cars I install all bolts with my fingers till they're snug. Then using a ratchet with its head in the palm of my hand, I tighten them, working from one bolt to the bolt on the opposite side, moving around the plate in the same method. 1, 4, 2, 5, 3, 6.

Once snugged with the palm ratchet, torque to spec in the same order.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: ...your flywheel bolts have been treated with loctite. I assume that you are referring to "Blue Loctite". Did you also use them on the pressure plate bolts?

Yes, blue. Yes, also on the pressure plate bolts.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I assume you must take some care to tighten them down in a certain sequence...

I've only ever replaced two Fiero clutches, so I'm hardly an expert , but I don't recall any challenges when tightening down the pressure plate bolts. What fierofool described sounds very similar to what I did.

Does the pressure plate have a certain way it is supposed to go on when bolted onto the flywheel? I remember reading in the SM that there is a painted spot that has to be lined up with a mark on the flywheel. But I don't recall if that was for the 2.5 or the 2.8... Examining the pressure plate doesn't reveal any balancing weights or holes drilled. My guess is that it doesn't matter how it is positioned on the flywheel.

The flywheel is easy, since there was a "key hole" in between two of the bolts that go into the crankshaft. But, I also have a picture of the flywheel on the engine before it came off, so I have that for reference.

Okay, so no recommendations on the pressure plate, so I will go with what someone else indicated in an earlier post, that it is balanced at the factory. Not sure it was clear what part of the clutch they were referring to, but I assume it was the pressure plate, as the disc is "no-brainer", and the flywheel is obviously balanced with all the partially drilled holes, and a bulge on the back side.

My question now is whether I have a problem with the clutch fork. When I have the rod for the fork pressed toward the center when I rotate it, as it would in normal operation (the shaft moves just a tiny bit in and out), the fork gets caught on the inside of the transaxle housing.



I have taken a few shots showing the issue. On this photo, you can see the edge of the fork just touching the back of the transaxle.



Here is a picture of the fork fully seated, with the TOB in its proper rear most position.



As you can see, there is only a slight difference, but it is enough to concern me that the clutch may not be able to fully engage. The one thing that comforts me, is that if I put any pressure on the TOB at all, it just immediately clicks down in its proper position. I am thinking that the pressure from the Pressure Plate spring, will most likely press against the TOB, and this little issue with the fork is probably nothing to worry about. Also, the position of the slave cylinder and where the arm is mounted on the fork's shaft, may tend to pull outward on it, where the fork will not come in contact with the recess in the tranny housing. I could also put some washers between the arm and the transaxle housing, to force the arm to come out and not ride down.

Thoughts?

More progress...

I have the transaxle back on and the bolts torqued to specs. My question is what the proper way to put fluid back into the transaxle once the axles are back in. Here is a picture of the unit.



I see there are two "fill" holes (one is for checking the level, I am fairly certain) to put fluid into the tranny. Which one should be use? Or should they both be used to put fluid into the tranny? Does each one put fluid into two sections of the transmission? If so, why is there only one drain plug?

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I see there are two "fill" holes . . .

Doesn't matter, just fill from whatever hole you prefer. You could even fill it from the VSS sensor hole.

The transmission was not exclusive to the fiero and some GM cars had the level dipstick where the bolt is.

Put 2.5 quarts into it through the dipstick hole. It's easiest especially when the unit is in the car. Check the level and add fluid as needed. The bolt hole could have been an overflow to indicate full when filling or adding. That method is often used on machinery gearboxes. Fill at the top until it spills out the side plug hole.

Edit to add that the bolt hole appears to be higher than the fluid level marks on the dipstick, so to fill it until it runs out the bolt hole may over-fill it.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-18-2017).]

Thanks... That makes sense.

When I laid the tranny on its side, I did notice that some left over oil drained out of one of the axle holes, and there was some water in the oil. Most likely from when I pressure washed the trans-axle. I did plug every hole when I washed it, but I suppose that a little water got in. Do you think it is a good idea, once the car is running again, to fill it with fluid, and then drain it after a few days of running it, and then repeat that a few times to get the remaining water out??? Or is there an additive I can put in to absorb the H20?

You may be able to flush it with just oil. A 5 w 30 oil is cheaper than synchromesh. Water should settle to the lowest point when there's no oil. While the trans is out, try to position the drain at the lowest point and pour some oil through it. Maybe put it in gear and turn the input shaft by hand to carry oil up through the gears. It would be slow enough that it wouldn't agitate the lower case content. I wouldn't run it with oil and water. It may homogenize into a gunk, making it difficult to get out of the higher gears and bearings. I have rinsed RWD transmissions with diesel, but I don't know how that would work with a FWD transmission since heavy gear oil can stand to absorb any remaining diesel, and synchro oil is already pretty thin.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-20-2017).]

Dexron 3 is what they called for before going to Synchromesh in '88....it's a lot cheaper. Maybe not as cheap as (non-engine oil) 5w30, but I'm not sure how hard it is to find that. I'd use whatever is cheapest, fill it, drive it for a few minutes, and immediately drain it while the water is mixed/suspended in the oil (but before it can homogenize). Then again, the water should settle at the lwoest point, which should also be the drain plug...

quote Originally posted by fierofool: You may be able to flush it with just oil. A 5 w 30 oil is cheaper than synchromesh. Water should settle to the lowest point when there's no oil. While the trans is out, try to position the drain at the lowest point and pour some oil through it. Maybe put it in gear and turn the input shaft by hand to carry oil up through the gears. It would be slow enough that it wouldn't agitate the lower case content. I wouldn't run it with oil and water. It may homogenize into a gunk, making it difficult to get out of the higher gears and bearings. I have rinsed RWD transmissions with diesel, but I don't know how that would work with a FWD transmission since heavy gear oil can stand to absorb any remaining diesel, and synchro oil is already pretty thin.

Thank you for the ideas. The transaxle is already mounted back on the engine, so I don't think I want to pull it off again just for that. I am fairly certain that there can't be much of anything left in there, so flushing a few times with some inexpensive tran oil should work. I think I will just turn it with the motor in reverse and then first, and then drain it fast. Got to get the headers and the exhaust back on first.

Just saw an episode of "Garage Squad".... Yeah, yeah, I know, another reality show. But I saw a motor that had sat for a while for an old Duster, and there was rust in some of the cylinders. Don't know low long it sat, but should I be concerned about that?!? During this odyssey, with one issue after another, and ill health for part of it, the car has been sitting in my garage with the headers off now for about 15 months (exhaust ports not covered), and hasn't run for 2 years. I am just now getting her put back together, so I would hate to have something hidden lurking inside the motor.

Having said that, I am still happy with what I have been able to accomplish, and only help I have had is my daughter's boyfriend to help me pull the transaxle off and then put it back on when I was ready. Also, of course, all the helpful ideas and suggestions I have gotten here...I thank you all.

You can pull the plugs and fog the cylinders with Marvel Mystery oil, then slowly, like 1/8th turn, use a pull handle on the crankshaft pulley bolt. Let it sit for a few hours, then do another 1/8th advance. Always go forward, never backward. If you feel resistance, stop until you can get more mystery oil or motor oil into the cylinders. If you've already been spinning the engine, never mind.

Once it's rotating well, hook a battery to the starter and spin it over while checking each cylinder with a compression tester. That will help you to know if the valve seating surfaces have rusted and pitted. The oil in the cylinders will help to reduce leakage between the rings and pistons.

quote Originally posted by fierofool: You can pull the plugs and fog the cylinders with Marvel Mystery oil, then slowly, like 1/8th turn, use a pull handle on the crankshaft pulley bolt. Let it sit for a few hours, then do another 1/8th advance. Always go forward, never backward. If you feel resistance, stop until you can get more mystery oil or motor oil into the cylinders. If you've already been spinning the engine, never mind. Once it's rotating well, hook a battery to the starter and spin it over while checking each cylinder with a compression tester. That will help you to know if the valve seating surfaces have rusted and pitted. The oil in the cylinders will help to reduce leakage between the rings and pistons.

Thank you for the suggestions. I didn't have any MMO, but I did have a can of STA-BIL fogging oil, so I used that. Good news is that I didn't feel any real resistance while turning it...just some slight stiction with some of the rotating parts. I will be checking the compression today. What is a nominal value for compression?

I think average compression is about 135-150. The manual says nothing below 100 and no cylinder should be less than 70% of the highest cylinder. Compression testing should be done on an engine that has been warmed then let cool for 10 minutes. It refers to being enough time for the catalytic converter to cool. I suppose that's if you're reaching up from the bottom to access 2, 4, and 6 cylinders.

If you have a Haynes manual, in the front in the Maintenance techniques, tools and working facilities section, there is a chart that gives the torque range of Metric, Pipe Thread, and US thread by the size of the bolt. You could torque to the median of the range.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: As long as the bolts are the correct size and thread pitch, and the hardness is adequate... Does anyone see any issues with using stuff meant for a completely different make/model of car?

The engine is from Chevrolet....So Pontiac did not have an issue....

quote Originally posted by fierofool: I think average compression is about 135-150. The manual says nothing below 100 and no cylinder should be less than 70% of the highest cylinder. Compression testing should be done on an engine that has been warmed then let cool for 10 minutes. It refers to being enough time for the catalytic converter to cool. I suppose that's if you're reaching up from the bottom to access 2, 4, and 6 cylinders. If you have a Haynes manual, in the front in the Maintenance techniques, tools and working facilities section, there is a chart that gives the torque range of Metric, Pipe Thread, and US thread by the size of the bolt. You could torque to the median of the range.

I am turning the crank by hand with small breaker bar...there was some resistance until I got it moving, But as I indicated in a previous post, I think that was just normal stiction, getting those parts moving...there is always some resistance to motion. That is until I realized I was also turning the tranny gears too, so I reached over and pulled shift lever out of gear. I think it is in neutral now, and a little easier to turn. But with a compression gauge connected to the plug hole, I am only getting around 20 - 30 PSI. Is that because I am cranking it by hand - do I need to use the starter to turn it? I checked two cylinders, and they act the same. Should I be concerned? Do I have a defective compression gauge? This is the Gauge Set I purchased. I am using the spark plug adapters, so I should be getting a good seal. I can feel the resistance on the compression cycle for that cylinder, but then I hear the air escaping as soon as the pressure builds. Maybe I am just using it wrong. Knowing me, that is entirely possible.

As for using the average tension for a bolt... I don't know if that is wise in this case. The bolt is VERY hard (a 9 I think), and the transaxle case is made out of some kind of non-magnetic alloy. Is it reasonable to assume that I can just tighten it down to the mid-range of this hardened bolt? Something that might add to the mystery, is that these bolts all had loctite on them from the factory. So, I can only assume from that that they had to torque them to something less than optimal and used loctite on them to make sure they wouldn't back themselves out during normal use.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 09-26-2017).]

Re: Compression

The engine must spin over at speed about 4 or 5 rotations to get a good compression check. You can't do that by hand. Thus the reason for your low readings.

Any recommendations on the torque range for the bolts that attach the frame mounting brackets to the transaxle There are no numbers provided in the FSM...or at least not in the one I have.

Thanks!

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: Any recommendations on the torque range for the bolts that attach the frame mounting brackets to the transaxle There are no numbers provided in the FSM...or at least not in the one I have. Thanks!

Okay - answering myself on this one. Found the torque specifications in the transaxle service manual for the Muncie/Getrag 282, so I am going to use that. 40 ft/lbs

Found it on Fieronews.net, if anyone is interested. Manual is here.

I am going to use loctite (Blue) on the bolts, but does anyone think I should clean the old loctite off the bolts before I put them back in? Can't see that it would matter, really, but I love to hear some opinions on it.

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: ... the frame mounting brackets to the transaxle

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: I am going to use loctite (Blue) on the bolts, but does anyone think I should clean the old loctite off the bolts before I put them back in? Can't see that it would matter, really, but I love to hear some opinions on it.

IMO, using Loctite on those bolts is completely unnecessary. Tighten them to spec, and they're not going to come loose. I'd use anti-seize on them.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-29-2017).]

Continuing to put the car back together and getting the parts along the way. I have to transfer the EGR assembly from the old Y-Pipe to the new one

Does anyone know where I can get the gasket between the EGR body and the Y-Pipe for an 87 GT???



I found a source for all the other EGR gaskets, but not this one.

Also, for the O2 sensor. I assume there is a gasket there, but there might not be. If there is, should I replace it, or should I just get a new sensor. Thread compound for the threads, or just Anti-seize???

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 10-09-2017).]

I checked 5 sources including FelPro and found nothing. You may have to get some gasket making material and make your own by laying a piece on the base and tapping out the pattern with a small ballpeen hammer. Ball bearings placed over the area of the bolt holes then tapped with a hammer works great for small openings.

I've never seen a gasket on the O-2. Maybe just a compression O-ring like spark plugs use.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 10-09-2017).]

Before I get too far along with the re-assembly process, can anyone tell me whether the TOB for the clutch should have had grease packed into it? The FSM shows a page where this is done, but now I can't remember if it was for the 2.5 or the 2.8 manual Isuzu, Getrag, etc. The instructions for the clutch had some grease for the splines on the input shaft for the transmission (for the clutch disc), but there was nothing in there about packing grease into the through-out bearing. Just want to make sure before I get too far along.

Throwout bearings are generally a sealed unit, pre-lubed at manufacture. Only some of the old throwout bearings of the pre-60's vehicles actually had a grease fitting on them.

I am cleaning up the surfaces for the oil pan. The Perma-Dry gasket I have says no chemical adhesives, but it looks like that is what failed and caused it to leak near the rear main. Seems like the leak was right around a bolt. There was some old gasket glue or something that hardened and failed, with some of it ending up in the bottom of the oil pan. What is the best way of getting the old gasket gunk off of the surfaces?





You can see some of the old gasket gunk in this photo (circled in red).



How do you get that crap off without scoring the block surface? There isn't anything but a little dried oil on the oil pan itself.

Also, where the tabs fit into slots around the rear main cap (smaller red circle)... should you put any form-a-gasket stuff in there. The instructions for the Perma-Dry gasket I got says not to use that stuff.

[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 10-16-2017).]

quote Originally posted by computer_engineer: What is the best way of getting the old gasket gunk off of the surfaces?

Over the summer I updated the oil pan and pickup on my Subie, and had somewhat the same issue with cleaning crap off off the bottom of the block. I went to the dollar store and bought a package of razor blade scrapers for next to nothing. For the final cleanup (on metal only), I use acetone (and try not to get any on my skin).




The Subie doesn't use any type of pre-formed gasket on the oil pan, just special goop... so someone who's reinstalled a Fiero oil pan can give you their advice on that part of the job.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-16-2017).]