So today i just found out about Brad Penn oils, summit sells it. Their oils are designed for race and heavy use with semi synthetic and full synthetic formulas. The part that interests me is the zddp additive (zinc), is it necessary for our stock 2.8's.
I've read a LOT, believe me. And while there's no doubt about the science of zinc and wear, there are no statistics about real-world results from modern engine oils. Lots of stories about "no zinc killed my engine" just like my stories about "no zinc had no effect," but there isn't any science about increases in oil-related cam wear since '94, when they started decreasing zinc content in automotive engine oils (the adoption the API's SH designation). Twenty years of Camry owners going to Jiffy Lube and never having heard of ZDDP seems like the potential for an entire industry to spring up making camshafts for Camrys... and it hasn't happened.
There was an article in some automotive trade magazine I read a few months ago while getting my car smogged, suggesting that the effects of zinc loss have been far less than expected. The article attributed the fact to the nature of the problem in the first place: Zinc is primarily a consideration during initial start, before oil is flowing through the engine and there is abnormal metal-to-metal contact. Once the engine is running, the usefulness of zinc more or less disappears - or, at least it should. If you do a lot of short trips, with lots of stops & starts, no zinc could be a significant problem. But for most people who starts their car maybe 2-3 times per day on the outside, engine start damage just doesn't add up to much over the lifetime of a car. Using a quality oil of a proper viscosity for the climate plus a quality filter with a lasting anti-drainback valve mitigates the cold start problem significantly - so perhaps that is in play with my engines as well.
On the other side of the equation - opposite the "more wear" concern - reduced zinc levels improve catalytic converter life and reduced phosphorus limits carbon buildup in bores and valve trains. [Zinc and phosphorous are what ZDDP is] Those are definitely desirable.
Bear in mind I'm talking about not-new, stock engines. For breaking in an engine, I'm 100% behind adding zinc. There is a lot of potential for wear there and zinc will mitigate that. For a high-po engine with stiff valve springs and high lift where that cold start period can truly be hell, zinc makes sense as well.
But a stock motor with squishy springs and sane lift, there just aren't any statistics that I have found to support the idea that zinc is actually all that important. If you've found some, I'd love to read them. But I've tried & failed.
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I went off trying to find any statistics and still can't, but found this from Joe Gibbs, and I think largely echoes what I was saying:
Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.
Many people have had good success with premium API licensed products in stock engine applications (as well they should). However, this can create a false perception that API licensed oils should work in every application, but this is simply not the case. When you go beyond normal valve lift, operating temperatures and cylinder pressures, the oil formula needs to adapt to these “new” requirements.
It's a great article as whole, well worth the read. Also of note:
There is a lot of hype over a lot of products, but only one real truth – proper balance is what makes an oil right for an application.
A perfect example of proper balance can be seen is an API SN motor oil. While this spec oil is limited to 800 ppm of a catalytic converter friendly ZDDP, an API SN oil can break in a flat tappet camshaft. The flat tappet cam in question has less than .400 valve lift and no more than 215 psi valve spring pressure. So an API SN oil will protect a flat tappet cam, but you won’t see success trying to break in a Big Block Chevy cam with over .500 valve lift and over 300 psi valve spring pressure with an API SN oil. It is the different demands of the valve train loads that dictate what balance is required to protect.
Again, Joe Gibbs - who sells high-ZDDP oil and ZDDP additives - suggests that it's only aggressive cams/valvetrain scenarios that are truly at risk from API SH++ oils. That echoes what I've read elsewhere, and supports my position that on a Fiero with any stock motor any API-licensed quality oil will do you fine. This site also presents the science which supports that claim.
I have never used a ZDDP additive on any street engine and *never* had any cam wear of note. The only times I've used high-zinc oils are in turbocharged cars where zinc also protects the turbo... but I'm talking API-licensed oils with relatively high zinc content like Mobil 1 High Mileage, not Special Racing Super ZDDP Oil. Unless you're running something with a gonzo cam, you're wasting money on ZDDP additives. Remember, "less zinc" has ostensibly been a problem since *1994*. That's 20 years for all the cams in all the '80s cars to fail, and they're not failing.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 09-17-2015).]
I thought there was an issue with the additive and the catalytic converters and O2 Sensors.
Just beware: Full Credit to Copyright AA1Car
What happens if you use a ZDDP additive in a newer vehicles that has O2 sensors and a catalytic converter? If you follow the recommended dose on the product and don't overdo it, and if the engine is not using an unusual amount of oil (less than a pint between normal oil changes), it's doubtful the ZDDP will have any negative effects on the oxygen sensors or catalyst.
However, if you continue to use such a product long term (many tens of thousands of miles), it may eventually cause some contamination and shorten the service life of the O2 sensors and catalyst. The O2 sensors would be come sluggish and slow to respond to changes in the air/fuel mixture, causing a drop in fuel economy. The catalyst might lose efficiency at converting exhaust pollutants into CO2 and water vapor, causing an increase in tailpipe emissions. Either of these conditions could be a problem if you live in an area that requires emissions testing and your Check Engine light comes on, indicating an emissions fault. Your vehicle will not pass an emissions test if there are any issues with the O2 sensors or catalyst.
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------------------ Mark ' 85 2m6 3.4PR In the Great Northwest!
If you look at the specs provided by the oil manufacturers, you will see that some, like Mobil 1 for high mileage will have a little more zinc, but in general, you have to ask yourself, "what amount of zinc is correct?". I have run Mobil 1 in my Fieros without issues. If you want more zinc, use Mobil 1 High Mileage. Just my opinion.
you can get bradd penn at napa also, so you dont have to order through summit if you have a napa close by. The problem with the zinc in the oil is when you start running obsene amounts of spring pressure. stock 2.8 will never see the spring pressure of a circle track motor and will never put the stress on a cam/lifter face as those purpose built motors will. the effects of zinc being removed on those motors is quite noticable. will you see wear on a street motor with even a mild cam and higher than stock spring pressure? probably not but the zinc oil is comparable in price to other syn. so why not run it. and I have not seen a 02 sensor or cat problem with a properly running motor that uses zinc based oil.
I know of one first hand. A friend rebuilt his big block 60s Mopar. Flat rockers and lifters. He put synthetic oil in it and lost all the cam lobes in a few hundred miles. He replaced the cam with the same one, using the same bearings already installed, broke it in exactly the same way. He added a small bottle of the additive and its been running fine now for 10 years.
I know of one first hand. A friend rebuilt his big block 60s Mopar. Flat rockers and lifters. He put synthetic oil in it and lost all the cam lobes in a few hundred miles. He replaced the cam with the same one, using the same bearings already installed, broke it in exactly the same way. He added a small bottle of the additive and its been running fine now for 10 years.
Sounds like he should have used break-in oil instead of standard oil.
I heard lots of stories about people wiping lobes off of the Crane 272 cams. When I built my 3.4, using that cam, I used the recommended (I forget by who...) break in additive, and used Rotella T oil for lubrication. Never had any trouble with it. I also didn't use Crane lifters (I had also heard complaints about those...) I used some different ones that Summit sold.
Sounds like he should have used break-in oil instead of standard oil.
Yep, exactly that. I'll give the guy credit as even ten years ago this stuff wasn't all that well understood and the science wasn't fingertip-accessible like it is today. But today, there's just no excuse to go by something you heard once.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 09-18-2015).]
