I haven't had my gt long but I've been slowly going over things I think might need to be addressed in the near future. So I was looking over the tail lights and noticed they have a slight wave across the middle of the panel where it says pontiac. But otherwise they are clear as can be with no crazING or cracks. We're they like this originally? Are the bulbs too hot?
Anyway I was thinking how I could make this lens as currently there are no availible options short of cannibalizing a perfectly good gt. Cause let's face it, if the tail lights are pristine the whole car is too. So I was thinking if I could find a tailing assembly that had an intact lens that otherwise wasn't perfect I could remove the lens as a mold to fill with foam to make a mold. Remove it and take it to a machine shop to have a metal version fabricated. Then find the right Plexiglass or lexani to heat on top until it forms to the shape. I've seen this done with smaller objects with success. Then just trim the excess. Plausible? When I get time I'm going to try it anyway.
sounds like a good idea--just try it first and lets us know afterward! I think all the lenses get wavy in the PONTIAC area-
I was looking for a response of been there done that. So I can assume no one has ever tried it on the board? Is it lexan or plexi? Looks very thin. I could have this up and running after January when I take my two week vacation. I've seen my previous boss have to make parts for much rarer cars and more difficult parts than this.
I'm relatively new here, but did a LOT of reading of the archives. From what I can gather there was a company reproducing the lenses and selling them through the Fiero store. They were using the OE molds to make them. Unfortunately that company folded a few years ago and those molds were lost. Since then there have been several people claiming to be working on reproduction lenses, but NOBODY has delivered on them.
Lots of people get hung up on the INTERNAL black outlines and lettering. My thought is to make and sell an entirely CLEAR lens, and the buyer can finish them as desired via IMSA GT's mask/paint technique.
I'm relatively new here, but did a LOT of reading of the archives. From what I can gather there was a company reproducing the lenses and selling them through the Fiero store. They were using the OE molds to make them. Unfortunately that company folded a few years ago and those molds were lost. Since then there have been several people claiming to be working on reproduction lenses, but NOBODY has delivered on them.
Lots of people get hung up on the INTERNAL black outlines and lettering. My thought is to make and sell an entirely CLEAR lens, and the buyer can finish them as desired via IMSA GT's mask/paint technique.
The ones that were available from the Fiero Store weren't reproductions, at least in the sense that they weren't using their own molds. The Fiero Store had acquired the OEM GM molds, and those were in the possession of The Fiero Store's supplier, when that supplier went under, and the molds were subsequently destroyed.
Indeed, making a basic injection mold out of aluminum, for the clear section of the lens, is not hard. Getting the black layer created, and the two pieces fit together properly, is where everyone has indeed, failed.
The ones that were available from the Fiero Store weren't reproductions, at least in the sense that they weren't using their own molds. The Fiero Store had acquired the OEM GM molds, and those were in the possession of The Fiero Store's supplier, when that supplier went under, and the molds were subsequently destroyed.
Indeed, making a basic injection mold out of aluminum, for the clear section of the lens, is not hard. Getting the black layer created, and the two pieces fit together properly, is where everyone has indeed, failed.
That's what I'm saying-- everyone is SO focused on the INTERNAL black stuff that they are forgetting that the key component is already there-- the solid clear lens! I've never manufactured anything, much less plastic parts, but what keeps someone from using paint on the OUTSIDE of the lens like IMSA and others have done to restore OEM lights? It couldn't be too hard to make a printable paper template to use for screening. If a manufacturer were to make them they could offer them in two or three options-- completely unpainted, OE style with PONTIAC, or custom with whatever the buyer wants on there. If it's just mask and sprayed paint the sky is really the limit with the design you could put in the center of the lights.
The ones that were available from the Fiero Store weren't reproductions, at least in the sense that they weren't using their own molds. The Fiero Store had acquired the OEM GM molds, and those were in the possession of The Fiero Store's supplier, when that supplier went under, and the molds were subsequently destroyed.
Indeed, making a basic injection mold out of aluminum, for the clear section of the lens, is not hard. Getting the black layer created, and the two pieces fit together properly, is where everyone has indeed, failed.
I believe that the blackout back portion can be recreated with transfer film or a paint mask. For my taste the fiberglass panel that used,the oval Corvette tail lights once made by Al Lindsay looked more modern.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If you're painting the outside of the lenses anyway, there's nothing that says you can't glass them together to fill the gap and spray the center body color and remove the lighting behind the center. That way you get modern looking lenses and another unique look.
That's what I'm saying-- everyone is SO focused on the INTERNAL black stuff that they are forgetting that the key component is already there-- the solid clear lens! I've never manufactured anything, much less plastic parts, but what keeps someone from using paint on the OUTSIDE of the lens like IMSA and others have done to restore OEM lights? It couldn't be too hard to make a printable paper template to use for screening. If a manufacturer were to make them they could offer them in two or three options-- completely unpainted, OE style with PONTIAC, or custom with whatever the buyer wants on there. If it's just mask and sprayed paint the sky is really the limit with the design you could put in the center of the lights.
The key to getting this done is going to a mid to major manufacturer. But first we have to get a prototype to pitch. How many are they going to sell? For how much? If a good profit is not there it'll be a no go. That's why theres a ton of corvette suppliers.corvette guys spend money. They don't go cheap on their ride. But there are still enough fieros waiting for this to happen before it's to late. I drove up and down the strip the other night and had people looking at the car in bewilderment. Had a comment from two young Californian s yell at me from 4 lanes over, hey man cool car". So the markets there.
The original lenses were polycarbonate. You have a good idea going. I don't know what the melt point of plexi or lexan is but has anyone ever tried vacuum forming. Some model makers use that as you only need a one sided mold. So the all clear option would be there. Also with vacuum forming the mold could be wood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maH5Ech0wK8
------------------ Pat Jones
[This message has been edited by 88FieroGT TTops (edited 09-29-2015).]
The key to getting this done is going to a mid to major manufacturer. But first we have to get a prototype to pitch. How many are they going to sell? For how much? If a good profit is not there it'll be a no go. That's why theres a ton of corvette suppliers.corvette guys spend money. They don't go cheap on their ride. But there are still enough fieros waiting for this to happen before it's to late. I drove up and down the strip the other night and had people looking at the car in bewilderment. Had a comment from two young Californian s yell at me from 4 lanes over, hey man cool car". So the markets there.
The going price for an intact set of lights right now with lenses, lamps, reflectors, etc is around $500. This will buy you a set with no cracks or other damages, but will likely have at least some delamination. That's IF you can find them for sale. I'd say a fair target price point for just clear lenses would be $75-100. The cost is going to be setup, actual production should be fairly cheap I would imagine. The key would be for a manufacturer to move enough volume to recoup the setup cost. Fiero owners are notorious cheapasses, so I doubt a price point over $100 would go over well.
The original lenses were polycarbonate. You have a good idea going. I don't know what the melt point of plexi or lexan is but has anyone ever tried vacuum forming. Some model makers use that as you only need a one sided mold. So the all clear option would be there.
Did you see the same video I saw where the guy made a canopy for his glider with a vacuum? I want to do it in 3 pieces the way it should have been done in the first place. Rt and left tail lights and center piece. But for right now I'm going to focus on the two halves just to have a lens to snap in like the original . The back half of my gt is perfect. If I can get the lens produced and it's profitable for the manufacturer then we can get the rest of it produced. Baby steps.
The going price for an intact set of lights right now with lenses, lamps, reflectors, etc is around $500. This will buy you a set with no cracks or other damages, but will likely have at least some delamination. That's IF you can find them for sale. I'd say a fair target price point for just clear lenses would be $75-100. The cost is going to be setup, actual production should be fairly cheap I would imagine. The key would be for a manufacturer to move enough volume to recoup the setup cost. Fiero owners are notorious cheapasses, so I doubt a price point over $100 would go over well.
I bought a 85 gt brand new sold in 91. But here I am in 15 with another one and I've driven a lot of expensive cars. I want to see the car survive. So two things have to happen. One is more availible modern performance parts and two bring in more younger people. I'm starting with the tail lights only because it seems to be a huge obstacle. Hell I'd pay $200 for new lenses that would never warp or crack san accident.
I wish you all the best luck. I've got a set of lights with bad lenses, so I'd probably be a buyer if you were able to get something made. I'd be happy to beta test as well, but it may not be worth your trouble to get them to me.
I wish you all the best luck. I've got a set of lights with bad lenses, so I'd probably be a buyer if you were able to get something made. I'd be happy to beta test as well, but it may not be worth your trouble to get them to me.
I've been a beta tester and it's not all its cracked up to be.
There is a thread or two on the subject of disassembly that has pretty good pics. If that doesn't get what you need I'll be glad to take pics and send them. I've got a broken set I could send you, but it won't be for a few weeks, I intend to use them to practice refinishing techniques to use on my good lights.
There is a thread or two on the subject of disassembly that has pretty good pics. If that doesn't get what you need I'll be glad to take pics and send them. I've got a broken set I could send you, but it won't be for a few weeks, I intend to use them to practice refinishing techniques to use on my good lights.
Thanks for the info. Didn't Spend Enough Time Looking At The Tail Light Design component wise. Does the lens fit inside the frame?
The tail light assembly consists of three components. There is the outer clear lens, the inner colored lens/diffuser, and the housing that contains the reflectors, as well as the bulb mounts and mounting tabs. It is held together by a series of clip tabs that clip the outer lens to the housing. The inner lens is held in place by the two outer pieces. Common issues are the inner black plastic film that outlines the lens and makes the PONTIAC lettering bubbling up and delaminating from the clear part, and the mounting tabs breaking off of housing assembly. It is difficult to remove the remaining black from the inside of the lens without damaging the clear part, so the best fix I have seen is to mask and paint the outside of the lens to achieve the same effect. I think the mask/paint solution would be the best way to finish any new clear lens.
The tail light assembly consists of three components. There is the outer clear lens, the inner colored lens/diffuser, and the housing that contains the reflectors, as well as the bulb mounts and mounting tabs. It is held together by a series of clip tabs that clip the outer lens to the housing. The inner lens is held in place by the two outer pieces. Common issues are the inner black plastic film that outlines the lens and makes the PONTIAC lettering bubbling up and delaminating from the clear part, and the mounting tabs breaking off of housing assembly. It is difficult to remove the remaining black from the inside of the lens without damaging the clear part, so the best fix I have seen is to mask and paint the outside of the lens to achieve the same effect. I think the mask/paint solution would be the best way to finish any new clear lens.
The black center piece could be anodized or powder coated aluminum with the pontiac or whatever you wanted stamped out. I think the smart move would be to switch to led to reduce the heat inside the taillight which I think is causing most of the problems with this piece. So get two clear lenses produced and a center section that wraps over eliminating the the ghastly center seam. Carbon fiber center would even be a better solution for the center then bond to the opposing lenses providing optimum protection.
[This message has been edited by Silvertown (edited 09-30-2015).]
I bought a 85 gt brand new sold in 91. But here I am in 15 with another one and I've driven a lot of expensive cars. I want to see the car survive. So two things have to happen. One is more availible modern performance parts and two bring in more younger people. I'm starting with the tail lights only because it seems to be a huge obstacle. Hell I'd pay $200 for new lenses that would never warp or crack san accident.
$200? Try more like $1200, because that's what NOS lenses can go for. If you're going to try and create a mold to make reproductions, the retail price will probably be even higher, because low production count, and low demand, means higher cost. The reason there are no reproduction lenses on the market, has nothing to do with believing in the force.
Those who have failed to create viable reproduction lenses, did so not because they didn't believe, but because they thought the process was much simpler, and cheaper, than it actually is.
$200? Try more like $1200, because that's what NOS lenses can go for. If you're going to try and create a mold to make reproductions, the retail price will probably be even higher, because low production count, and low demand, means higher cost. The reason there are no reproduction lenses on the market, has nothing to do with believing in the force.
Those who have failed to create viable reproduction lenses, did so not because they didn't believe, but because they thought the process was much simpler, and cheaper, than it actually is.
You've been here for 16 years where's your contribution. I've worked in tool and die, I've worked in antique car restoration. I've worked in paint, I've rebuilt engines, transmissions, built my own fuel injection,interiors, worked with parts vendors that supply the world's major automakerers for over 20 years. Studied manufacturing processes. The reference wasn't to you but to those that fail. Must have hit a sore spot. If you don't have solutions to the problem then find another thread to troll.
You've been here for 16 years where's your contribution. I've worked in tool and die, I've worked in antique car restoration. I've worked in paint, I've rebuilt engines, transmissions, built my own fuel injection,interiors, worked with parts vendors that supply the world's major automakerers for over 20 years. Studied manufacturing processes. The reference wasn't to you but to those that fail. Must have hit a sore spot. If you don't have solutions to the problem then find another thread to troll.
Whoops.....it's heading for the dark side here. Warning people about expensive processes is not necessarily trolling.... Optically correct plastic injection parts are made with very expensive tools because they need to be in order to look OK. If you want to invest in a solution, please do.
Originally posted by Silvertown: You've been here for 16 years where's your contribution. I've worked in tool and die, I've worked in antique car restoration. I've worked in paint, I've rebuilt engines, transmissions, built my own fuel injection,interiors, worked with parts vendors that supply the world's major automakerers for over 20 years. Studied manufacturing processes. The reference wasn't to you but to those that fail. Must have hit a sore spot. If you don't have solutions to the problem then find another thread to troll.
And your contribution to this forum is to attack me?
I tell you facts and you reply with only a link to a youtube video clip of Star Wars, and now you're replying with another personal attack. If you want to actually manufacture reproduction tail light lenses for the fastback, then you need to learn how to do it correctly and what the actual costs are going to be. Taking an existing lens, filling it with foam, and milling two blocks of aluminum to make a mold isn't going to get you a quality part, and you aren't going to be paying only $200 for it. If you think it will, then you're only setting yourself up for failure.
You can scoff and "believe" all you want, but there aren't that many Fieros left on the road, an even smaller number of them are fastbacks, and an even smaller number of those owners will even be willing to pay what it will cost, to get perfect new reproduction lenses that aren't of the same quality as the OEM or TFS production runs were.
You keep trying to brag about yourself to somehow establish your own authority. The last person who came on here and was going to offer making tail light lenses, and possibly other products, did exactly the same thing. And when people pointed out what the real costs would be, where the problems would exist in creating the lenses, and offered suggestions for solutions, that person replied in exactly the same way that you are doing on here.
Originally posted by Gall757: Whoops.....it's heading for the dark side here. Warning people about expensive processes is not necessarily trolling.... Optically correct plastic injection parts are made with very expensive tools because they need to be in order to look OK. If you want to invest in a solution, please do.
Exactly. Why is it that people with such hopeful goals can't take a bit of constructive criticism in pointing out where others have failed, and how their idealistic price point is way off base?
And your contribution to this forum is to attack me?
I tell you facts and you reply with only a link to a youtube video clip of Star Wars, and now you're replying with another personal attack. If you want to actually manufacture reproduction tail light lenses for the fastback, then you need to learn how to do it correctly and what the actual costs are going to be. Taking an existing lens, filling it with foam, and milling two blocks of aluminum to make a mold isn't going to get you a quality part, and you aren't going to be paying only $200 for it. If you think it will, then you're only setting yourself up for failure.
You can scoff and "believe" all you want, but there aren't that many Fieros left on the road, an even smaller number of them are fastbacks, and an even smaller number of those owners will even be willing to pay what it will cost, to get perfect new reproduction lenses that aren't of the same quality as the OEM or TFS production runs were.
You keep trying to brag about yourself to somehow establish your own authority. The last person who came on here and was going to offer making tail light lenses, and possibly other products, did exactly the same thing. And when people pointed out what the real costs would be, where the problems would exist in creating the lenses, and offered suggestions for solutions, that person replied in exactly the same way that you are doing on here.
HAVE YOU EVEN MADE ANYTHING FOR THIS CAR THAT'S FOR SALE? I'm not doing a tool and die. It's necessary. If you know so much why haven't you made them. Your a drag racer. Stick to that.
Whoops.....it's heading for the dark side here. Warning people about expensive processes is not necessarily trolling.... Optically correct plastic injection parts are made with very expensive tools because they need to be in order to look OK. If you want to invest in a solution, please do.
Exactly. Why is it that people with such hopeful goals can't take a bit of constructive criticism in pointing out where others have failed, and how their idealistic price point is way off base?
$200? Try more like $1200, because that's what NOS lenses can go for. If you're going to try and create a mold to make reproductions, the retail price will probably be even higher, because low production count, and low demand, means higher cost. The reason there are no reproduction lenses on the market, has nothing to do with believing in the force.
Those who have failed to create viable reproduction lenses, did so not because they didn't believe, but because they thought the process was much simpler, and cheaper, than it actually is.
If you actually read what I was saying in "I wanted lenses that wouldn't crack or delaminate" that eliminate nos lenses. Why would I want lenses that have a Manu defect. My tailights are close to perfect except for the undulations across the center. These lights are defective due to the length of them. If they had been 3 piece then this would not be as problematic.
The black center piece could be anodized or powder coated aluminum with the pontiac or whatever you wanted stamped out. I think the smart move would be to switch to led to reduce the heat inside the taillight which I think is causing most of the problems with this piece. So get two clear lenses produced and a center section that wraps over eliminating the the ghastly center seam. Carbon fiber center would even be a better solution for the center then bond to the opposing lenses providing optimum protection.
CAVEAT: I have no experience with manufacturing, so you might know more than me. With that said, I see two potential problems you may run into with an adonized piece. The first is that the lens is narrower at the entry than at the location where the piece would be placed. This means that and insert would have to be flexible enough to be inserted without damaging it. The second and probably more difficult would be proper bonding. Any imperfection in bonding to the inside of the lens would be painfully visible from the outside. You would also need an adhesive that would not discolor or disbond from UV exposure. The solution would probably be to form the lens around the existing piece, but that would make it difficult to get it right with any sort of vacuum forming unless you have a complex (read:expensive) molding/forming process. I think the current state of the market is such that there is a strong demand for the product, but probably not enough to drive the complex R&D required to produce OE quality reproductions, hence why it hasn't been done. I like your idea and agree that eliminating the center gap will solve several issues at once, but not without creating new issues on its own. For example, if you were to create a three piece lens, how would you use the existing two piece light assembly? Further, how would this now SEVEN piece assembly mount to the car? Ive got a fastback GT on hand with the tail lights removed. I will gladly provide as many pictures and measurements as you request.
CAVEAT: I have no experience with manufacturing, so you might know more than me. With that said, I see two potential problems you may run into with an adonized piece. The first is that the lens is narrower at the entry than at the location where the piece would be placed. This means that and insert would have to be flexible enough to be inserted without damaging it. The second and probably more difficult would be proper bonding. Any imperfection in bonding to the inside of the lens would be painfully visible from the outside. You would also need an adhesive that would not discolor or disbond from UV exposure. The solution would probably be to form the lens around the existing piece, but that would make it difficult to get it right with any sort of vacuum forming unless you have a complex (read:expensive) molding/forming process. I think the current state of the market is such that there is a strong demand for the product, but probably not enough to drive the complex R&D required to produce OE quality reproductions, hence why it hasn't been done. I like your idea and agree that eliminating the center gap will solve several issues at once, but not without creating new issues on its own. For example, if you were to create a three piece lens, how would you use the existing two piece light assembly? Further, how would this now SEVEN piece assembly mount to the car? Ive got a fastback GT on hand with the tail lights removed. I will gladly provide as many pictures and measurements as you request.
The anodized piece would wrap around the lenses eliminating the center seam. The carbon fiber would require the lense mold to be adjusted so that the carbon fiber could be inlaid over the lense for a smooth transitional finish..
CAVEAT: I have no experience with manufacturing, so you might know more than me. With that said, I see two potential problems you may run into with an adonized piece. The first is that the lens is narrower at the entry than at the location where the piece would be placed. This means that and insert would have to be flexible enough to be inserted without damaging it. The second and probably more difficult would be proper bonding. Any imperfection in bonding to the inside of the lens would be painfully visible from the outside. You would also need an adhesive that would not discolor or disbond from UV exposure. The solution would probably be to form the lens around the existing piece, but that would make it difficult to get it right with any sort of vacuum forming unless you have a complex (read:expensive) molding/forming process. I think the current state of the market is such that there is a strong demand for the product, but probably not enough to drive the complex R&D required to produce OE quality reproductions, hence why it hasn't been done. I like your idea and agree that eliminating the center gap will solve several issues at once, but not without creating new issues on its own. For example, if you were to create a three piece lens, how would you use the existing two piece light assembly? Further, how would this now SEVEN piece assembly mount to the car? Ive got a fastback GT on hand with the tail lights removed. I will gladly provide as many pictures and measurements as you request.
As far as the three piece that would be expensive being that you would need everything retooled. I think the 2 piece lense with a center overlay is the best option. I will get the mold made out of foam then make the carbon fiber center with pontiac cut out. Then press it into the foam to get the relief right. Take foam mold with relief to a machine shop and have a hardened smooth polished mold.made.then warming the mold and lexan along with vacuum.
Originally posted by Silvertown: HAVE YOU EVEN MADE ANYTHING FOR THIS CAR THAT'S FOR SALE? I'm not doing a tool and die. It's necessary. If you know so much why haven't you made them. Your a drag racer. Stick to that.
Wow you're so professional. You're really making me want to buy and recommend your products with your ad hominem condescending bullshit.
If you want me to spend me time doing what you want me to do, then you give me the money to do it. Bring me a million dollars and I will drop everything and start up a manufacturing business next week, and I'll make some parts for a Fiero.
Otherwise, STFU with the constant personal attacks. If you don't like being given information, for free, then just ignore it. My work history and what I do professionally now, or in my own free time, are none of your concern. If you can't deal with that, then well I guess maybe you should get Puddles Pity Party to play at your birthday party in your own little sandbox or whatever. I don't really care.
If you actually read what I was saying in "I wanted lenses that wouldn't crack or delaminate" that eliminate nos lenses. Why would I want lenses that have a Manu defect. My tailights are close to perfect except for the undulations across the center. These lights are defective due to the length of them. If they had been 3 piece then this would not be as problematic.
Being three piece lights wouldn't prevent delamination or cracking. Clear plastic lenses are going to suffer damage over time from UV exposure, whether they are 2 piece, 3 piece, or made some other way. Delamination occurs because the black and clear separate from UV damage. The defects as a result from heat and UV exposure are not a result of the length of the lenses.
Wow you're so professional. You're really making me want to buy and recommend your products with your ad hominem condescending bullshit.
If you want me to spend me time doing what you want me to do, then you give me the money to do it. Bring me a million dollars and I will drop everything and start up a manufacturing business next week, and I'll make some parts for a Fiero.
Otherwise, STFU with the constant personal attacks. If you don't like being given information, for free, then just ignore it. My work history and what I do professionally now, or in my own free time, are none of your concern. If you can't deal with that, then well I guess maybe you should get Puddles Pity Party to play at your birthday party in your own little sandbox or whatever. I don't really care.
Evidently you do care because your taking up my time on my thread which I'm using to get this done. You stfu and start your own thread on why this has always failed. I don't associate with losers.
Being three piece lights wouldn't prevent delamination or cracking. Clear plastic lenses are going to suffer damage over time from UV exposure, whether they are 2 piece, 3 piece, or made some other way. Delamination occurs because the black and clear separate from UV damage. The defects as a result from heat and UV exposure are not a result of the length of the lenses.
Had big ten engineers tell me the same thing until I proved them wrong. Saved the company $1000000 a year. I didn't get a trophy for that. I got paid big money.
