Originally posted by Silvertown: Evidently you do care because your taking up my time on my thread which I'm using to get this done. You stfu and start your own thread on why this has always failed. I don't associate with losers.
If you don't want people to comment on your thread, then don't make a thread. It's a public forum and I'll post wherever I damn well please.
Again with the personal attacks. It's just impossible for you to even try to act remotely professional isn't it?
Originally posted by Silvertown: Had big ten engineers tell me the same thing until I proved them wrong. Saved the company $1000000 a year. I didn't get a trophy for that. I got paid big money.
Huh? You saved a company a lot of money by making three piece tail lights for a Fiero? So where are those tail lights then? Or are you just pulling some more mental masturbation to try and assert that you have some sort of authority, which you do not have?
It's amusing that you think it matters, but it doesn't change the facts, so please stop with it and the personal attacks.
Huh? You saved a company a lot of money by making three piece tail lights for a Fiero? So where are those tail lights then? Or are you just pulling some more mental masturbation to try and assert that you have some sort of authority, which you do not have?
It's amusing that you think it matters, but it doesn't change the facts, so please stop with it and the personal attacks.
Are you just glossing over what I said. I didn't say anything about a three piece tailight. What I was referring to was a waste recovery problem dealing in auto manufacturing. The hazardous waste an automaker puts out is in the millions. Paint, solvent etc etc.
If you don't want people to comment on your thread, then don't make a thread. It's a public forum and I'll post wherever I damn well please.
Again with the personal attacks. It's just impossible for you to even try to act remotely professional isn't it?
You start bringing good ideas to table instead of it can't be done because I've been here for 16 years and no body's been able to do it. our conversations might actually become civilized. Theres a reason why theres no good parts for this car. There's a reason why the car was cancelled and that's because good ideas are always drowned out by those who cant.
Are you just glossing over what I said. I didn't say anything about a three piece tailight. What I was referring to was a waste recovery problem dealing in auto manufacturing. The hazardous waste an automaker puts out is in the millions. Paint, solvent etc etc.
a) You didn't mention anything about waste recovery. You said some Big Ten engineers told you the same thing, and you proved them wrong.
b) Neither of those things has anything to do with making injection molded clear tail light lenses for a Fiero. You were claiming a three piece design would eliminate any possibility of delamination. I said you were wrong.
a) You didn't mention anything about waste recovery. You said some Big Ten engineers told you the same thing, and you proved them wrong.
b) Neither of those things has anything to do with making injection molded clear tail light lenses for a Fiero. You were claiming a three piece design would eliminate any possibility of delamination. I said you were wrong.
Opinions are like........and you got some proof. Any experience in tool and die? Have you worked with sonic welders? Have you worked with any type of plastic injection molds?
Originally posted by Silvertown: You start bringing good ideas to table instead of it can't be done because I've been here for 16 years and no body's been able to do it. our conversations might actually become civilized. Theres a reason why theres no good parts for this car. There's a reason why the car was cancelled and that's because good ideas are always drowned out by those who cant.
I didn't say it can't be done. You really need to work on your reading comprehension and stop taking every bloody comment so damn personal.
I posted to point out some of the mistakes you're making in your assumptions, and how the previous people failed. I never said you couldn't make any lenses. If you can, great. But you really need to unwad your panties first.
if you need people to kiss your ass and tell you what a great idea you have, in order to have a civil conversation, then you've got deeper issues than what it will cost to produce quality reproduction tail light lenses. Nobody here knows you. Nobody cares about what you say you did or didn't do for some arbitrary company. Nobody wants to here you go on and on about how you hate me.
All I've said in this thread on the subject of Fiero tail lights was helpful information if you really want to make such a product. If you think you're going to come in here and do the exact same thing that all the previous people attempted to do and failed at, and somehow end up with a product that's viable, and will be $200 or less, then you've got a lot to learn. You're welcome to try, and learn from your own misfortunes, of course. But don't sit here and presume to know everything about the people who tell you how it is, and start down your path of personal attacks. It doesn't do you any favors.
I didn't say it can't be done. You really need to work on your reading comprehension and stop taking every bloody comment so damn personal.
I posted to point out some of the mistakes you're making in your assumptions, and how the previous people failed. I never said you couldn't make any lenses. If you can, great. But you really need to unwad your panties first.
if you need people to kiss your ass and tell you what a great idea you have, in order to have a civil conversation, then you've got deeper issues than what it will cost to produce quality reproduction tail light lenses. Nobody here knows you. Nobody cares about what you say you did or didn't do for some arbitrary company. Nobody wants to here you go on and on about how you hate me.
All I've said in this thread on the subject of Fiero tail lights was helpful information if you really want to make such a product. If you think you're going to come in here and do the exact same thing that all the previous people attempted to do and failed at, and somehow end up with a product that's viable, and will be $200 or less, then you've got a lot to learn. You're welcome to try, and learn from your own misfortunes, of course. But don't sit here and presume to know everything about the people who tell you how it is, and start down your path of personal attacks. It doesn't do you any favors.
I don't hate you, just your attitude. Do you have any threads that haven't been archived. That are relevant to subject at hand?I don't need you dobey. I know tool and die makers, I know where to go get this done and all your doing is effing up another thread. I started it to document the part production process. How it's presented, so that maybe others will pick a part to do so I don't have to do the whole damn car.
Originally posted by Silvertown: I don't hate you, just your attitude. Do you have any threads that haven't been archived. That are relevant to subject at hand?I don't need you dobey. I know tool and die makers, I know where to go get this done and all your doing is effing up another thread. I started it to document the part production process. How it's presented, so that maybe others will pick a part to do so I don't have to do the whole damn car.
Maybe you should adjust your own attitude. You're the one making all the personal attacks. The only thing I did was to comment about how there are now options on the market, and those whom have all tried, with the same assumptions you're espousing in this thread, have all failed to bring a product to market. The only person turning this thread sour, is you. The number of threads I have or have not started is irrelevant. Starting a lot of threads doesn't somehow make you a better person, or more knowledgeable, or right. It just means you started a lot of threads. After all, you made this thread to discuss tail lights, not my history on this forum or in Fieros, or cars, or whatever else.
If you want to go make tail lights and document the process, then go do it instead of spending the time to attack people who have only given you information. You said you were thinking of making a mold from an existing lens, and making reproduction lenses, and asked if it was plausible. Don't have a heart attack when someone tells you that others made the exact same assumptions and failed to make a product. If you think you know where to go to get this done, then bloody go do it instead of wasting all your brain energy to try and come up with some inane attacks against my person.
Maybe you should adjust your own attitude. You're the one making all the personal attacks. The only thing I did was to comment about how there are now options on the market, and those whom have all tried, with the same assumptions you're espousing in this thread, have all failed to bring a product to market. The only person turning this thread sour, is you. The number of threads I have or have not started is irrelevant. Starting a lot of threads doesn't somehow make you a better person, or more knowledgeable, or right. It just means you started a lot of threads. After all, you made this thread to discuss tail lights, not my history on this forum or in Fieros, or cars, or whatever else.
If you want to go make tail lights and document the process, then go do it instead of spending the time to attack people who have only given you information. You said you were thinking of making a mold from an existing lens, and making reproduction lenses, and asked if it was plausible. Don't have a heart attack when someone tells you that others made the exact same assumptions and failed to make a product. If you think you know where to go to get this done, then bloody go do it instead of wasting all your brain energy to try and come up with some inane attacks against my person.
Go get it done and document the process.
Who have I attacked? You might want to recheck your post. Are you doing any fiero testing for weak points. Are intentionally running it out of gas. Are running it through 120 degree dessert heat? Have you come up with a double din radio mount ac control swap? Cause if I had been on this board for 5 years I'd already have these on the market. Have you come up with any thing dolby that makes this car better? But the saying goes for a battery to function it has to have a positive and a negative.
Originally posted by Silvertown: Who have I attacked? You might want to recheck your post. Are you doing any fiero testing for weak points. Are intentionally running it out of gas. Are running it through 120 degree dessert heat? Have you come up with a double din radio mount ac control swap? Cause if I had been on this board for 5 years I'd already have these on the market. Have you come up with any thing dolby that makes this car better? But the saying goes for a battery to function it has to have a positive and a negative.
Again. Can you perhaps frame a post about the subject at hand, instead of what you believe you think I may or may not have accomplished in my own personal life?
That sir, is the very definition of an attack. You are attempting to somehow insult me, by insinuating that it's somehow impossible for me to drive a car in the desert, or because I'm not already selling a double-DIN stereo mount that moves the HVAC controls to the bottom.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If you want me to start a manufacturing business making parts for the Fiero, then bring me one million dollars and I will stop everything, and I'll have parts in production in very short order. Until then, whether or not I make aftermarket parts for the Fiero is none of your concern. If you can't do that, then I suggest you stop attempting to create some false superiority or authority for yourself by making claims about me. Blaming me for when you fail in the future isn't going to save you.
If you ever do actually make parts for the Fiero, it doesn't make you a better person than all the people on this forum whom do not make said parts for a Fiero. So pull your head out of your ass and stop insulting the entire forum membership by implying that you are somehow superior. You're not.
Again. Can you perhaps frame a post about the subject at hand, instead of what you believe you think I may or may not have accomplished in my own personal life?
That sir, is the very definition of an attack. You are attempting to somehow insult me, by insinuating that it's somehow impossible for me to drive a car in the desert, or because I'm not already selling a double-DIN stereo mount that moves the HVAC controls to the bottom.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If you want me to start a manufacturing business making parts for the Fiero, then bring me one million dollars and I will stop everything, and I'll have parts in production in very short order. Until then, whether or not I make aftermarket parts for the Fiero is none of your concern. If you can't do that, then I suggest you stop attempting to create some false superiority or authority for yourself by making claims about me. Blaming me for when you fail in the future isn't going to save you.
If you ever do actually make parts for the Fiero, it doesn't make you a better person than all the people on this forum whom do not make said parts for a Fiero. So pull your head out of your ass and stop insulting the entire forum membership by implying that you are somehow superior. You're not.
Why does everybody think they need a million dollars? I'm not better than the average joe. But if you think that you haven't attacked any body when you have then you need to go back through your post. It doesn't really bother me cause I like it when the gloves come off. Then you can have a real honest debate. I don't have a problem with facts you do.You have presented nothing based on first hand knowledge of the process. It's not an attack if it's fact. Doesn't mean I'm a better person it means I'm a better problem solver. I've already met one forum member who knows these cars inside and out better than anyone and it ain't you. That's the people I listen to and respect. If your going to blow hot air I'm not listening. Tell me why they failed if you have that knowledge.
Originally posted by Silvertown: Why does everybody think they need a million dollars? I'm not better than the average joe. But if you think that you haven't attacked any body when you have then you need to go back through your post. It doesn't really bother me cause I like it when the gloves come off. Then you can have a real honest debate. I don't have a problem with facts you do.You have presented nothing based on first hand knowledge of the process. It's not an attack if it's fact. Doesn't mean I'm a better person it means I'm a better problem solver. I've already met one forum member who knows these cars inside and out better than anyone and it ain't you. That's the people I listen to and respect. If your going to blow hot air I'm not listening. Tell me why they failed if you have that knowledge.
Your problem with facts is that you can't use them. If you're attacking me, then you're not having an honest debate. You're just ignoring the issues and attacking me. You have no idea what my first hand knowledge of any process is.
Indeed you haven't met me. I told you why they failed. If you're illiterate or can't comprehend, then that's an issue separate from what was stated. Go back and read.
And I need a million dollars to go into manufacturing parts full time, because that's what it will take to reach a break even point in a reasonable amount of time, and to be able to afford doing it full time. I don't know why you think manufacturing doesn't cost money. Tools, space, materials, logistics, and marketing all have financial cost. I guess you'll learn that the hard way then.
I don't care if you listen to me or not. I was just trying to provide the info. Do with it what you will, but don't go on a rampage of personal attacks because you don't agree with it.
There is a thread or two on the subject of disassembly that has pretty good pics. If that doesn't get what you need I'll be glad to take pics and send them. I've got a broken set I could send you, but it won't be for a few weeks, I intend to use them to practice refinishing techniques to use on my good lights.
Any pics you can send would be wonderful. The corners and the tabs, especially any thing that extends past the terminal edges
Your problem with facts is that you can't use them. If you're attacking me, then you're not having an honest debate. You're just ignoring the issues and attacking me. You have no idea what my first hand knowledge of any process is.
Indeed you haven't met me. I told you why they failed. If you're illiterate or can't comprehend, then that's an issue separate from what was stated. Go back and read.
And I need a million dollars to go into manufacturing parts full time, because that's what it will take to reach a break even point in a reasonable amount of time, and to be able to afford doing it full time. I don't know why you think manufacturing doesn't cost money. Tools, space, materials, logistics, and marketing all have financial cost. I guess you'll learn that the hard way then.
I don't care if you listen to me or not. I was just trying to provide the info. Do with it what you will, but don't go on a rampage of personal attacks because you don't agree with it.
It's not what you know as much as who you know. As I said before I know tool and die makers. But I don't believe you need a tool and die set up for the lenses. At least not from a hydraulic standpoint. Even if I have to do each lens in two pieces and sonically weld the lens in its better than nothing if not original.
Your problem with facts is that you can't use them. If you're attacking me, then you're not having an honest debate. You're just ignoring the issues and attacking me. You have no idea what my first hand knowledge of any process is.
Indeed you haven't met me. I told you why they failed. If you're illiterate or can't comprehend, then that's an issue separate from what was stated. Go back and read.
And I need a million dollars to go into manufacturing parts full time, because that's what it will take to reach a break even point in a reasonable amount of time, and to be able to afford doing it full time. I don't know why you think manufacturing doesn't cost money. Tools, space, materials, logistics, and marketing all have financial cost. I guess you'll learn that the hard way then.
I don't care if you listen to me or not. I was just trying to provide the info. Do with it what you will, but don't go on a rampage of personal attacks because you don't agree with it.
And if your in it for the money then you truly don't love the fiero. Ive had the privilege of meeting and working alongside wealthy individuals who started their businesses without a million dollars much less a thousand.
Originally posted by Silvertown: It's not what you know as much as who you know. As I said before I know tool and die makers. But I don't believe you need a tool and die set up for the lenses. At least not from a hydraulic standpoint. Even if I have to do each lens in two pieces and sonically weld the lens in its better than nothing if not original.
The OEM lenses are each two pieces, the clear lens, and the black portion, which are, if I recall correctly, sonically welded together. Delamination occurs from heat and UV exposure in direct sunlight, over time, where it causes the two pieces to begin separating. You would need two molds for each side of the fastback tail lenses, one for the clear lens piece, and another for the black plastic piece. You would then need the tooling appropriate for each side, to perform the sonic welding of the two pieces together. That is how the OEM lenses (and the ones produced by The Fiero Store's supplier using the same molds and tooling) were made.
You could maybe get away without injection molding the black piece, but I don't see how you're going to make a clear plastic lens the same shape and quality as the OEM lenses, without injection molding it. There are a few ways the black could be done, that would be an acceptable replacement, but it will still be susceptible to UV and heat over time, and will eventually show defects similar to the delamination in OEM lenses, depending on exposure.
Originally posted by Silvertown: And if your in it for the money then you truly don't love the fiero. Ive had the privilege of meeting and working alongside wealthy individuals who started their businesses without a million dollars much less a thousand.
Good for them. So have I.
But then and now are not the same. Inflation and incredible increases in real estate means that rent isn't cheap. Nor are employees (at least, good ones aren't cheap). And I'm sure their circumstances were probably not the same as mine either. So don't try to give me some lecture on how I don't love the Fiero or I'm in it for the money. I've done the math and I know what the costs are, and what it would take to even come close to breaking even. I'm not in it for the money, but I'm not looking to lose everything I have and end up on the street, either.
If I'm going to start manufacturing parts, then I'm going to do it on my own terms. Not yours. If you want to have some say in it, that I should be doing that as my life's work, then you're going to meet my terms to do that. If you can't meet those terms, then you have absolutely no right to make such claims about what I should be doing with my time or money, nor implying that I somehow do not have any passion for my car, because I am not doing those things.
The OEM lenses are each two pieces, the clear lens, and the black portion, which are, if I recall correctly, sonically welded together. Delamination occurs from heat and UV exposure in direct sunlight, over time, where it causes the two pieces to begin separating. You would need two molds for each side of the fastback tail lenses, one for the clear lens piece, and another for the black plastic piece. You would then need the tooling appropriate for each side, to perform the sonic welding of the two pieces together. That is how the OEM lenses (and the ones produced by The Fiero Store's supplier using the same molds and tooling) were made.
You could maybe get away without injection molding the black piece, but I don't see how you're going to make a clear plastic lens the same shape and quality as the OEM lenses, without injection molding it. There are a few ways the black could be done, that would be an acceptable replacement, but it will still be susceptible to UV and heat over time, and will eventually show defects similar to the delamination in OEM lenses, depending on exposure.
Has anybody tried cutting out the lens successfully without damaging the frame. The material today is much better than 1988. I want to do it in one piece if possible. It could be painted by the installer to match the black bezel.
Has anybody tried cutting out the lens successfully without damaging the frame. The material today is much better than 1988. I want to do it in one piece if possible. It could be painted by the installer to match the black bezel.
It would be very difficult to do, since the two pieces are welded together, Maybe if you baked it in a UV oven long enough you could get the delamination to cover 100% of the lens, and then the two pieces could be safely separated. It'd be a very slow and arduous process though, not something you can do in an afternoon.
But then and now are not the same. Inflation and incredible increases in real estate means that rent isn't cheap. Nor are employees (at least, good ones aren't cheap). And I'm sure their circumstances were probably not the same as mine either. So don't try to give me some lecture on how I don't love the Fiero or I'm in it for the money. I've done the math and I know what the costs are, and what it would take to even come close to breaking even. I'm not in it for the money, but I'm not looking to lose everything I have and end up on the street, either.
If I'm going to start manufacturing parts, then I'm going to do it on my own terms. Not yours. If you want to have some say in it, that I should be doing that as my life's work, then you're going to meet my terms to do that. If you can't meet those terms, then you have absolutely no right to make such claims about what I should be doing with my time or money, nor implying that I somehow do not have any passion for my car, because I am not doing those things.
I'm not wanting you to manufacture parts. I'm wanting concrete examples of why they (not pontiac) have failed at bringing lenses to the market. I saw the one thread where they didn't deliver and that's it. But have seen the process I'm talking about used to make clear intricate lexan or plexiglass shapes of considerable size.
It would be very difficult to do, since the two pieces are welded together, Maybe if you baked it in a UV oven long enough you could get the delamination to cover 100% of the lens, and then the two pieces could be safely separated. It'd be a very slow and arduous process though, not something you can do in an afternoon.
If the frame can be salvaged and cleaned up to accept the new lens I think that would be an option.
Originally posted by Silvertown: I'm not wanting you to manufacture parts. I'm wanting concrete examples of why they (not pontiac) have failed at bringing lenses to the market. I saw the one thread where they didn't deliver and that's it. But have seen the process I'm talking about used to make clear intricate lexan or plexiglass shapes of considerable size.
The reason the previous attempts have failed is because the people grossly understimate the difficult of making quality lenses, and overstimate their own abilities.
Are you planning to take a sheet of polycarbonate and vacuum form it? That's how doublec4 makes the HID projector headlight housings he sells, but he very clearly states that you cannot use halogen bulbs, or leave them parked in the sun in the desert for too long, because heat will cause the plastic to deform. If you try to make tail light lenses in the same way, I think you may very well have the same problems.
Originally posted by Silvertown: If the frame can be salvaged and cleaned up to accept the new lens I think that would be an option.
Were you asking about separating the two pieces of the lens, or separating the lens from the assembly that contains the reflectors and sockets?
The latter is certainly doable and pretty well documented. The former is significantly more difficult to accomplish successfully. I was suggesting a possible way of achieving the former, separating the two pieces that make up the lens itself, which are welded together, from each other.
Originally posted by dobey: Were you asking about separating the two pieces of the lens, or separating the lens from the assembly that contains the reflectors and sockets?
The latter is certainly doable and pretty well documented. The former is significantly more difficult to accomplish successfully. I was suggesting a possible way of achieving the former, separating the two pieces that make up the lens itself, which are welded together, from each other.
I'm not sure. The video on that page doesn't work, and all the examples of it in use that I can find, are for painted plastics. I'm not sure if it would be viable for forming optically clear lenses for use in lighting. Most of the uses seem to be for punching holes in bumpers and such, for fog light inserts, parking sensors, etc… If you think it's a viable way to produce some lenses, then I'd suggest calling them to see if they think it's a viable use of their machines, and finding someone who has such a machine and would be willing to produce the parts, to make some simpler test pieces with.
I'm not sure. The video on that page doesn't work, and all the examples of it in use that I can find, are for painted plastics. I'm not sure if it would be viable for forming optically clear lenses for use in lighting. Most of the uses seem to be for punching holes in bumpers and such, for fog light inserts, parking sensors, etc… If you think it's a viable way to produce some lenses, then I'd suggest calling them to see if they think it's a viable use of their machines, and finding someone who has such a machine and would be willing to produce the parts, to make some simpler test pieces with.
I was wanting to use it to separate the old lenses instead of using a dremel to do it. I'm just looking for availible options like reusing the frame portion if that's correct terminology of the lens assembly.
I was wanting to use it to separate the old lenses instead of using a dremel to do it. I'm just looking for availible options like reusing the frame portion if that's correct terminology of the lens assembly.
Oh. When you say "frame portion" are you talking about the portion of the tail lights which contains the reflectors and bulb sockets? If so, you don't need a dremel or a sonic punch to disassemble the pieces.
Oh. When you say "frame portion" are you talking about the portion of the tail lights which contains the reflectors and bulb sockets? If so, you don't need a dremel or a sonic punch to disassemble the pieces.
No. I've only seen the seperated lens from the front in a pic. But i'm assuming from working in plactics that the outer edge of the lens assembly is thicker where it meets the rear housing. Is the lens one piece all the way to the back clip where it connects to the rear?
Back on track. Slammed vanishes with GT tail lights manufacture idea after thread deteriorates. Silvertown appears with GT tail light manufacture idea, thread deteriorates.
Now, I wonder... Anyway, the proof is in the pudding--I mean, the product. If you can do it, great. Show us. Even dobey would have to respect that.
Who is slammed? Was it feasible? Why did it deteriorate?
Originally posted by dobey: Were you asking about separating the two pieces of the lens, or separating the lens from the assembly that contains the reflectors and sockets?
The latter is certainly doable and pretty well documented. The former is significantly more difficult to accomplish successfully. I was suggesting a possible way of achieving the former, separating the two pieces that make up the lens itself, which are welded together, from each other.
That's what I'm talking about. Seperating the lense from the black frame that surrounds it After seeing a pic of the back side it could still be made in two pieces.but lens would have to be larger and welded to the frame. Then as previously mentioned paint over the lens to hide the weld unless you black out the lens edge from the back.
