There is reason I would like to trickle charge through the cigarette lighter: both of my Fiero's have Norm's front mount battery and they are a PITA to gain access to. In addition, my cars sit a lot so topping up the battery is a needful thing. So, is the factory wiring for the cig lighter able to handle trickle charging? Thanks, Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 12-20-2015).]
You can trickle charge through the lighter. There are small devices made that runs between car lighters that will charge a battery. Supposedly it will jump start one, but I doubt a lighter's low amperage fuse would withstand the current draw of a starter. If you put your charger on the two amp setting, you should be able to accomplish it.
I have a Schumacher XM1-S (or 5) It is a "Maintainer" (1.5 amps / 18W / microprocessor controlled) The plan is not to maintain the battery's charge but rather to charge a low battery. If it takes several days to do it, then no problem because Im not in a hurry. If it takes a whole week (at 1.5 amps) then that will be fine. Can you charge up a low battery at such a low amperage rate? Will my plan work? Thanks, Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 12-20-2015).]
No issues charging the battery through the charger, but as mentioned it needs to be trickle charged. 1.5A should work fine. It takes a little longer, but the end result is the same.
Id add a timer to the formula. Ive replaced a total of 5 batteries over the past year on my rides. They are not dealing with being on trickle chargers on 24/7. My old Pontiac was running on generator only after I was 150 miles from home. So yes going via the lighter is way simpler. But Id limit it to maybe an hour or two a day. Even my Deltran charger killed 2 very expensive batteries.
As I mentioned earlier, my "maintainer" is microprocessor controlled and is supposed to sense when the battery is fully charged and switch over to "maintain" mode. Proof of this is that this maintainer has no switches of any kind. You plug it in and it does the rest. Also, as I mentioned above, I'm not using my maintainer to maintain the charge, I'm using it to charge up the battery, then unplug it.
On another note, I bought a 12 volt male plug tonight, wired it to wiring harness connector of the maintainer and I now have it plugged in and charging the battery, Thanks again for all the feedback and replies. Kit
Id add a timer to the formula. Ive replaced a total of 5 batteries over the past year on my rides. They are not dealing with being on trickle chargers on 24/7. My old Pontiac was running on generator only after I was 150 miles from home. So yes going via the lighter is way simpler. But Id limit it to maybe an hour or two a day. Even my Deltran charger killed 2 very expensive batteries.
That's strange that you had battery problems from trickle charging, unless your system just kept over charging for days. A dead battery on trickle charge will take quite a while to charge and there shouldn't be issues with keeping it plugging in for longer than several hours. Of course, most newer chargers (like what Kit has) will sense the battery charge and cut off (of cut back to a maintenance charge) once the full charge is reached. Can't say why your charger killed any batteries, could have been an issue with either the batteries or the charger
One maker, Gill Battery has in fine print they will not warranty a battery thats been on a tender. So far the limited time on trickle is working. Ive seen something on the web that we are down to just one (?) Lead source now in US. Perhaps that is a factor.
Like the Fool said, Charlie. they sell them on TV for jumpstarting cars but the amount of time it would take to do that because of the low draw it would take all night, but for what you have in mind I see no reason it shouldn't work.
My question to you is what is a long time for your cars to go between starting's?
Because my old 79 GMC yard plow can sit for months on end before ever being needed on the farm and always starts just fine when ever I go to turn the key. Maybe you just need battery battery's, because I never have any trouble starting that or my Fiero up here in the winter or summer months. and both can sit for months and sometimes longer and not ever get started or run. I do buy 1,000 CCA battery's for my plow truck and also at least the next larger size of CCA for any of the vehicles we have. They tend to start better and last longer.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
The reality is that car batteries are subject to outside influences: cold weather, heat, vibration, car electronics, etc, (even with the car off) Actually, both of my Fiero's are kind to batteries. My Reatta is much worse. The battery in it will drain down after only a month of sitting outside. And this is "warm" California. Kit
Top Q: Can I trickle charge through the cig lighter? Can but many sockets have problems, like can work loose over time and stop charging. Can fix or replace whole socket. See my Cave, Lighter
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123: My question to you is what is a long time for your cars to go between starting's? Because my old 79 GMC yard plow can sit for months on end before ever being needed on the farm and always starts just fine when ever I go to turn the key.
79 truck doesn't have ECM that will suck down a battery. Battery w/ low charge for any reason can freeze and that means quick death to them.
ECM and Radio draws enough power so Battery Tender etc often won't go "green" saying battery is at full change. Only time I've seen BT LED turn Green is when battery is not connected to any EFI car.
Trickle Charging a disconnected battery can easy over charge them. Is why some chargers are smart enough to turn off. Not just Car Starting batteries. Some in UPS world will turn off the charger when not needed. Others UPS charger will trickle 24/7/365 and batteries only last 12-24 months.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Do you have a conventional lead-acid battery or an absorbant glass matt (AGM) battery (like an Optima). A traditional charger or maintainer may not work on them, especially if they're low. On a regular lead-acid battery you should be fine.
I have a Wal-Mart lead acid battery. (Exide?) It sits in a fiberglass "tub". (Norms front mount battery) If my battery was sitting on a metal battery tray, then I would have put down a square pad of rubber, wood,etc Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 12-21-2015).]
I would wire a plug of some kind to the terminals so you can easily unplug the charger when you're using the car. BTW, always place your charger as far away from flammable materials as possible because they can overheat.
Discharge/recharge cycles are very hard on starting batteries - unlike "deep cycle" style batteries, starting batteries do not recover very well from deep discharging. Letting a starting battery drop below about 10v with any regularity will lead to a very short lifespan. On the other hand, a good maintainer - especially one that uses pulses to desulfate plates - can help a battery last virtually forever. The batteries on my Suburban were 9 years old when I sold it. The battery in my Falcon is just heading into its 7th year.
As was mentioned earlier, not all maintainers can handle anything other than flooded cell batteries. AGM batteries have different characteristics that can result in them showing bad when they're not, or discharged when they're not. You need to be sure your maintainer either has a setting or can detect non-flooded-cell batteries to get good results.
Exide makes a few non-flooded-cell batteries, including Orbitals which are very good AGM batteries, and Walmart stocks them. I would check to see exactly what you've got on the car and choose a direction accordingly.
I would wire a plug of some kind to the terminals so you can easily unplug the charger when you're using the car. BTW, always place your charger as far away from flammable materials as possible because they can overheat.
I like this idea as well. On my Falcon and Fleetwood I use a Noco maintainer which has plugs on the output side. They sell these little pigtails to hardwire to the battery and make connecting/disconnecting the charge easy.
On the Falcon and Fleetwood, I leave the connectors dangling behind the grille so I can just plug in without popping the hood. On a Fiero with a front-mount battery, I'd maybe leave the plug in front of the radiator, or possibly run it into the cabin.
My Fiero can sit three to four months and still start but that is if it is disconnected . The battery tender might be good for winter storage but never tried them on my Optima. Don't believe that it would work. My solution is to use a battery cut out switch so that that the clock and PCM memory won't drain the battery.. I will go for a 30 minute ride and then shut everything down. My Fiero is now in mothballs for the winter season.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
79 truck doesn't have ECM that will suck down a battery. Battery w/ low charge for any reason can freeze and that means quick death to them.
Ah but the Fiero has all that and with the better battery's I have never had a problem starting it in winter when I have to move it to plow, better battery mean MORE POWER when it is lower, sometimes to the point of even being at half charge my 1,000 CCA batteries may have more than required to start them. or maybe I am just lucky.
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries like OPTIMA Batteries have different charge rates and float voltages then Lead-acid batteries. Most battery tenders are set up for Lead-acid batteries. If you have an AGM battery you may want to invest in a changer that has a AGM setting like the Battery Minder has.
Also I have had no problem with battery tender going in to battery maintainer mode on any of my EFI cars. Some times it takes several days to bring the battery up, but if the battery is in reasonable shape it does go in to maintain mode.
------------------ 88 GT 5 Speed Black with gray interior 3800 SCII Swap Complete. Paint Complete Detailing in Progress
IT RUNS!! IT'S QUICK!!
"Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not."
I have a yellow top Optima battery in the front compartment of my car. If I leave it to sit for many weeks without being driven, it will discharge to the point that it won't start the car. I have charged it (and other batteries) back up over a period of days, using the Battery Tender pictured above. (Mine is actually much older.) Depending upon how the car is situated in the garage, I'll either clip to the battery or use a lighter plug. Works fine, either way. (If it's really low, I'll usually just use the clips, but as long as the capacity of the lighter fuse is not exceeded, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.)
You can jump start a car from one of those little glove compartment battery packs. You can also jump it with a cord that has 2 lighter plug ends to connect to another car. NO they wont carry the starter load. What you do is connect it and leave it connected for 15-20 minutes, then UNPLUG it to try starting. Says so on the instructions.
You can do yours like you want, but make sure your using a FLOAT charger, NOT a trickle charger. Trickle chargers will eventually burn up the battery because they run all the time until you unplug it. Floats only charge till the battery peaks, then shuts off. I use the Battery Tender and Schumaker mini float chargers on my stuff. I connect their supplied plug under the hood. One goes to the battery positive terminal, other goes to a chassis ground (not the battery ground terminal). Float charger will not work properly with the plug connected directly to both battery posts. Manufacturer says if you connect to the battery ground cable, it must be connected to that cable at least 3' from the battery.
...Float charger will not work properly with the plug connected directly to both battery posts. Manufacturer says if you connect to the battery ground cable, it must be connected to that cable at least 3' from the battery.
From an electrical standpoint, that makes no sense whatsoever. ASSUming a good connection, the chassis of the vehicle is electrically the same as the negative battery post. If it isn't, there's a problem. I have to believe that 3' distance is specified in order to keep sparks away from the battery. (Exploding a battery due to hydrogen in the air will mess up your day.)
From an electrical standpoint, that makes no sense whatsoever. ASSUming a good connection, the chassis of the vehicle is electrically the same as the negative battery post. If it isn't, there's a problem. I have to believe that 3' distance is specified in order to keep sparks away from the battery. (Exploding a battery due to hydrogen in the air will mess up your day.)
Whether its hard for you to believe or not, thats the facts. Ive had aux batteries in my show cars to run tvs, etc that I burned up by charging them by both posts in a month or two. I was too smart to read the manuals. Its got something to do with how the processor inside the charger reads battery condition I guess. Your argument is with the manufacturers, not me, whos simply following their instructions. Ive even got shop chargers with a float mode that work the same. If you connect them to both posts, it will keep running even if its charged 100% which is what burned the batteries up. If I do it the way your supposed to, you can watch the chargers peak meter go up, then shut off when its charged. We all know about the sparks. The cable length is to allow proper charging, not just to prevent explosion. If you connect to chassis or body with it installed in a car, it dont need that distance for whatever reason. It does need the specified distance if you connect it to the battery ground cable though. Thats what tech told me over the phone when I asked why the charger didnt shut off at 100% and burned up my battery. In fact I always make the connections all before I even plug the charger in too, or it may not read the battery correctly. Heres parts of the instructions manuals for 2 of my chargers...
Diegard shop charger
Schumaker mini float charger
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-27-2015).]
Whether its hard for you to believe or not, thats the facts. Ive had aux batteries in my show cars to run tvs, etc that I burned up by charging them by both posts in a month or two. I was too smart to read the manuals. Its got something to do with how the processor inside the charger reads battery condition I guess. Your argument is with the manufacturers, not me, whos simply following their instructions. ...
I'd like to read the electronic theory behind this. Still doesn't make sense, unless there's a measurable voltage drop across 24" of 6 gauge wire, which I seriously doubt. Not calling you a liar. Just would like to see the science.
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:
LOL, I love "Battery Charging 101 for Dummies".
Classy.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-27-2015).]
Originally posted by Raydar:From an electrical standpoint, that makes no sense whatsoever. ASSUming a good connection, the chassis of the vehicle is electrically the same as the negative battery post. If it isn't, there's a problem. I have to believe that 3' distance is specified in order to keep sparks away from the battery. (Exploding a battery due to hydrogen in the air will mess up your day.)
Yeah, that is correct. The charger can't tell where it's connected to the battery. As the document from Schumaker that Roger actually posted...
quote
To reduce the risk of a spark near the battery ... Attach at least a 24-inch ... battery cable to the negative battery post.
There are lots of reasons why a charger would fail to properly charge a battery, but lack of 2' of battery cable isn't one of them.
Get a battery maintainer at Harbor Freight. Sometimes they are around $5. Hook it up to the terminals with the provided clamps. Provided your battery is in the stock location just tuck the 110 volt power cable between the rear window and the battery cover/engine so the plug is the only thing you see. Just make sure the wires don't get tangled up in the belts and pulleys. You may want to use some zip ties. If your battery is in the front compartment the idea for the battery tender is the same only the plug would be placed probably in between the wiper blades set off to the side a little bit from the hood latch mechanism. Obviously you want to purchase one that doesn't have a big "wall wort" transformer on the end of the plug. Look for one that has a small plug like a lamp cord where the transformer is in the device itself. Another possibly better place is to have the cord plug hidden in the from nose in the air vents for your radiator. That may involve drilling a hole for the cord just near your spare tire and adding/splicing in some extra wire. You could also route the wire around your headlights just as long as the wire doesn't interfere with your headlights going up and down. It's not rocket science just think things through be creative and pride yourself with keeping things neat and tidy.
I have a Schumacher XM1-S (or 5) It is a "Maintainer" (1.5 amps / 18W / microprocessor controlled) The plan is not to maintain the battery's charge but rather to charge a low battery. If it takes several days to do it, then no problem because Im not in a hurry. If it takes a whole week (at 1.5 amps) then that will be fine. Can you charge up a low battery at such a low amperage rate? Will my plan work? Thanks, Kit
I have the Schumacher SEM-1562A model, it charged my Suburban's battery that was completely dead, took about 15 hours, So yes, you can slow charge a battery with your unit.
After it charged my battery, the unit switched into maintainer mode. I have no problem with leaving it in this mode. I only take the truck out 2 or 3 times a year. The ecm & the radio does drain the battery in a few months of sitting in the garage.
[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 12-29-2015).]
Originally posted by danscrazymodshop: Get a battery maintainer at Harbor Freight. Sometimes they are around $5. Hook it up to the terminals with the provided clamps.
you mean Cen-Tech - item#42292 is on clearance right now. Carefully Read reviews... Cheap units are cheap for a reason and can over charge and kill the battery. Worse when battery disconnected from any load.
Jump the battery... the "rule" is Last ground connection is to the engine block etc on the dead car to "keep sparks away from the battery."
Yes, Battery problems can release hydrogen gas that can explode or cause fire but This is not main problem... Jumping live battery can have 200+ amps when you make last connection if you a short circuit. That power can blow holes in battery case and weld or melt other parts.
Portable Lead or Lion battery booster should be treated same as jumping from another vehicle. Many are direct connect w/o any fuses on the boost circuit and you often can't tell how there made. Any problems then can dump allot of power... I've seen many problems w/ portable boosters and don't recommend buying to most people.
120vac Battery Chargers and Boosters don't need this because have low risk of either when turn off or unplugged. You have more risk connecting battery to the car then using chargers connecting directly to the battery.
That dont explain why the chargers fried my batteries connected at the terminals, but never did again after connecting them to the length of cable the tech told me to do. I even coiled the 3' cable in a bundle inside the battery box. So somehow, the charger can tell how its connected, maybe by measuring resistance or something. Im not an electronics engineer. I just know what worked for me and what dont. Ive never had another battery get fried when I used a length of cable, even after years of use. Like I said, even in the shop if I have a car with a dead battery, the smart chargers will keep running after its fully charged...unless I connect the chargers ground to the chassis somewhere, or an old jumper cable connected to the battery post. Then they will go to float mode when it hits 100%, so there is more reason to it than to keep it from sparking. The small Schumaker like Steves, came with a small pigtail to connect to the battery for handy quick attachment. Instructions specifically say connect pos end to battery terminal and neg to body or chassis and NOT the neg battery terminal. There is no danger of spark on a permanent attachment so thats not the reason.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-30-2015).]
Be that as it may, the reason why when jumping a car you connect positive terminal to positive terminal, then negative terminal to chassis is to prevent a spark from igniting outgassed hydrogen. That is the scientific, chemical, electrical reason. The reason you connect a trickle charger to a length of cable rather than the chassis is to ensure high resistance in your 20 year old ground cable doesn't create false feedback for the charger. The potential hazard for igniting hydrogen still exists, hence still no direct connection to the negative terminal. Why your charger failed at charging batteries without the cable is a mystery nobody will ever know the answer to, but 2' of battery cable is essentially electrically undetectable - certainly by something as primitive as a trickle charger. It performs no electrical function whatsoever. Really.
Whtever. Thats what works or dont work for me. BTW, one that fried an auxiliary battery (not electrically connected to car in anyway) in the rear was a brand new car...so it didnt have a 20 year old cable. Attached the cable, connected the charger and the second new battery worked fine for a couple of years. It was a battery box, connected to a big TV and a sound amp. When it ran down, I just plugged in the charger/maintainer. The original battery that fried, and the replacement were identical. I hooked up one of the shop chargers to a newer vehicle that was dead, it never shut off and toasted that battery before I started using an extra cable. It charged at 12amp all weekend. You couldnt even jump start it after that...had to buy a new battery. Using the extra cable, Ive never had one of 4 chargers not shut off automatically, even in a 25 yr old car. I will sometimes charge a low battery for an hour or two maximum without it because im right there and dont need it to shut off. The meter on the charger will stop at say 70% but the battery is testing at 100%. I can unplug the charger and reattach it and it will then say 100%. So why did it keep charging at full rate, with meter saying 70% when it was fully charged ? Same happens with any of my 4 chargers...they cant all be defective. Whether or not it makes sense, thats what happens sooo......I stopped doing it. I guess I own batteries and chargers with AI that do things they want out of the norm. Im just trying to save someone any grief.
Back to original question, yes you can charge thru the lighter plug if its always hot (not off with ignition off). Just dont try cranking it with it still plugged in. You will melt down the wires, usually only maybe 16/18 gauge. You can buy jumper cords and nicad battery packs that do that too.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-30-2015).]
Originally posted by thesameguy: Be that as it may, the reason why when jumping a car you connect positive terminal to positive terminal, then negative terminal to chassis is to prevent a spark from igniting outgassed hydrogen. That is the scientific, chemical, electrical reason. The reason you connect a trickle charger to a length of cable rather than the chassis is to ensure high resistance in your 20 year old ground cable doesn't create false feedback for the charger. The potential hazard for igniting hydrogen still exists, hence still no direct connection to the negative terminal. Why your charger failed at charging batteries without the cable is a mystery nobody will ever know the answer to, but 2' of battery cable is essentially electrically undetectable - certainly by something as primitive as a trickle charger. It performs no electrical function whatsoever. Really.
Yes.
Many are terrified by Hydrogen and still think Hindenburg exploded... Wrong. It burned. Big difference and why people survived the crash. Hydrogen, like gasoline, needs right mix to explode or burn. Most places have air moving to reduce or eliminate this problem for battery work. Most cars will spark every time when you connect a battery and most people don't bother w/ those sparks.
More likely some charger makers saying to add cable are just CYA to prevent users suing. (Many dumb buyers will try to charge very low or dead batteries and blame the charger and maker for any problems.) No 120vac then Charger shouldn't spark or have only very small spark.
Example: Diegard direction above, 7.2, 7.4 & 7.5 adds 2 feet of 6 AWG moves the spark area 2 feet away from the battery but Does Nothing for charging.
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
Why? Normal Ohm Meters and battery chargers won't see battery cable etc connected as Roger and others said because they don't have enough current to see wire resistance on wires bigger then 20-18 AWG until have many feet of wire, like 500-1000 feet. Resistance of 2 feet of 6awg is 0.0008Ω. You need ~2550 feet of wire to reach just 1Ω (Wire Resistance Calculator @ bulkwire.com) Voltage drop, more reliable way to measure resistance on most wires, on all OE battery cables at 10-20 amps are negligible. (2' of 6awg 10a at 13v is 0.008v dropped.) You need the run starter motor pulling 100+ amps to see measurable voltage drop and even that should be low, <0.5v.
Using the frame as a ground has always been the preferred method for jump starting a car.
Anyone ever actually see a battery that exploded or even better, see one explode?
Luckily the hood was closed and it was an old ford pickup. Made one hell of a mess, smelled like a sulfur factory exploded, acid everywhere. just by turning the ignition to the start position. I also have done like Roger has said with a small motorcycle battery, 2 amp and left it plugged in overnight, the battery was dry the next morning and smelled so bad I had to throw it away.
I think using the frame ground method is not as good a connection as using the terminals, but they both get the job done.
Charlie. they sell them on TV for jumpstarting cars but the amount of time it would take to do that because of the low draw it would take all night, but for what you have in mind I see no reason it shouldn't work.
